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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dredre9987 View Post
    And Karl...numbers mean **** in real applications...in case you didn't know that yet. They really don't mean anything if that first hit assassinates as well.
    Well seeing as there are mobs you can't assassinate in game, I appreciated the mathematical breakdown. Thanks Karl. Also without #'s, how can you even estimate how much dps you'll do?

    Also it seems that you're trying to say the #'s are bs by citing the thing that happens 5% of the time. By that logic the str-based rogue as much of a chance to assassinate as the int-based one (talking about vorpal strike).

    If you're talking about the targeted assassinate then what about the next mob while you're on cooldown?
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  2. #42
    Community Member dredre9987's Avatar
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    You show me one number cruncher that shows ALL variables in ALL situations. They don't...There are too many variables to account for in this game'
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    Oh and honestly, you are all carrying portal beaters on your casters? What on earth are you using it on often enough to clog up your bag with it?
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  3. #43
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    Eh? What?

    How would that even work? Checking the fort resistance *before* the hit, I mean.
    It means the game checks if your swing will be a regular hit or a SA hit first and then rolls the die to check if it connected. So on high fort mob, say Epic Lailat, 80% of your swings will be regular hits and, depending on your non-SA to-hit, some of that 80% won't even hit her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Did Einstein solo eLoB without pots or what?
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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    It means the game checks if your swing will be a regular hit or a SA hit first and then rolls the die to check if it connected. So on high fort mob, say Epic Lailat, 80% of your swings will be regular hits and, depending on your non-SA to-hit, some of that 80% won't even hit her.
    So ... on undead, you should never get the SA bonus to-hit, if this is true?
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  5. #45
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    So ... on undead, you should never get the SA bonus to-hit, if this is true?
    You never do. When facing 100% fort mob all SA to-hit bonuses like enhancements, +X SA from items/sets aren't added to your to-hit. The worst thing to do is to drink DEX yugo pot, which lowers ur to-hit for another 2 points while increasing your SA to-hit.

    Edit: Well, i guess if a monk lowers the fort on undead for you u can sneak attack them, so SA to-hit should apply.
    Last edited by brzytki; 11-16-2011 at 04:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Did Einstein solo eLoB without pots or what?
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    You never do. When facing 100% fort mob all SA to-hit bonuses like enhancements, +X SA from items/sets aren't added to your to-hit. The worst thing to do is to drink DEX yugo pot, which lowers ur to-hit for another 2 points while increasing your SA to-hit.

    Edit: Well, i guess if a monk lowers the fort on undead for you u can sneak attack them, so SA to-hit should apply.
    Interesting. I can't believe I never noticed that in ... gah, a lotta years of play.

    You're right, though, just wacked a couple undead in the desert.

    +1's all around

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  7. #47
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dredre9987 View Post
    Thanks for the posting...


    And Karl...numbers mean **** in real applications...in case you didn't know that yet. They really don't mean anything if that first hit assassinates as well.
    Gee wizz, thanks for pointing this out! I guess they wasted a lot of time over at NASA with all that BS theory stuff when they could have just built a big fo rocket and pointed it in the right direction, am I right?

    The only thing that limits the use of theory in the real world like what you find here ('cause DDO is the real world, am I right?) is the ability of the user of that theory to account for added variables themselves. We theorise in a vacuum and that's the point! Much easier to add variables to a vacuum than to come up with a different set of numbers for each situation.

    Then there are those people that are convinced that they proc slayer arrows 25% of the time ...

  8. #48
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    You never do. When facing 100% fort mob all SA to-hit bonuses like enhancements, +X SA from items/sets aren't added to your to-hit. The worst thing to do is to drink DEX yugo pot, which lowers ur to-hit for another 2 points while increasing your SA to-hit.

    Edit: Well, i guess if a monk lowers the fort on undead for you u can sneak attack them, so SA to-hit should apply.
    How does the fort-reducement of the Opportunist feat play into this?
    My guess is: Not at all, because it is borked in conjunction with SA damage?
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  9. #49
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    How does the fort-reducement of the Opportunist feat play into this?
    My guess is: Not at all, because it is borked in conjunction with SA damage?
    Apparently it is fixed ...

  10. #50
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    How does the fort-reducement of the Opportunist feat play into this?
    My guess is: Not at all, because it is borked in conjunction with SA damage?
    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Not to hijack this thread anymore, my response is in that thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Did Einstein solo eLoB without pots or what?
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  11. #51
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Sorry for the thread necro, but I am getting close to TR my Rogue and am wondering how long it took you to get your 2 epic midnight greetings. Did it take a month? How many runs?
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  12. #52
    Community Member Melt-emi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    Sorry for the thread necro, but I am getting close to TR my Rogue and am wondering how long it took you to get your 2 epic midnight greetings. Did it take a month? How many runs?
    Personally i completed 2 eMG within 20 runs of tide turns.

  13. #53
    Community Member domandi's Avatar
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    It isn't that hard to get the 2 seals and shards for EMG. The trick is getting the scrolls. People know that it is a sought after scroll so they decide to rake the rogs over coals. I finished mine, but last I saw on Argo, they were going for close to 850k each. It may be different now.
    Bhask the Unseen 21 Rog(tr 3), Tangoh 15 Barb(tr life 3),Domand d'Jorasco 18/2(tr4 )sorc/paly BF, Nilock 20(tr life 3), Domandi 20/8 1st life shuriken thrower.

  14. #54
    Community Member arroyo's Avatar
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    850k is a ripoff for a 'niche' Scroll, but I guess that's AH price. I wouldn't pay more than 500k, though I got mine before u11 for under 200k each.
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  15. #55
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    It took me about 3 weeks of dedicated eMG grinding to do it (not sure how many runs, but I would say around 50 runs). Hardest part for me was the darn shards!
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  16. #56
    Community Member Miahoo's Avatar
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    Thats a really nice and fun build. I love it.

    Althought I'm about to TR my rogue, I dont think I'll follow this line. I'm in elitish guild, where most trash get wailed in a second and boss DPS is more required.

    About haste boost, it works together with HV damage boost, which hands great DPS for 20 seconds. Highly recommended imo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    If you wanna be a boss beater, you can always roll a barb or a fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonTroy View Post
    EDIT: about that highlighted red statement, yeah, you're pretty much correct, rogues aren't made for boss dps'ing, but we get much cooler abilities than those dumb barbs, so no worries
    I highly disagree with those statements!!

    Is this why my rogue take aggro out of the barbarian tank even with subtle activated?

    So yeah.. we now have some big-fortification-wall with elite bosses. Where fvs crowns can help alot.

    This is also what my "1 FVS 11 Rogues" post on cannith is trying to prove - Rogues are some great boss beaters.

    Its sad to see this kind of comments on the Rogu-, err, Specialists section.
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  17. #57
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiahooJunk View Post
    Thats a really nice and fun build. I love it.

    Althought I'm about to TR my rogue, I dont think I'll follow this line. I'm in elitish guild, where most trash get wailed in a second and boss DPS is more required.

    About haste boost, it works together with HV damage boost, which hands great DPS for 20 seconds. Highly recommended imo.





    I highly disagree with those statements!!

    Is this why my rogue take aggro out of the barbarian tank even with subtle activated?

    So yeah.. we now have some big-fortification-wall with elite bosses. Where fvs crowns can help alot.

    This is also what my "1 FVS 11 Rogues" post on cannith is trying to prove - Rogues are some great boss beaters.

    Its sad to see this kind of comments on the Rogu-, err, Specialists section.

    There are plenty of mobs wail doesn't work on very well (usually) that a DC 48 assassinate works well on, such as orothons, devils, and paladins to name 3.

    I have haste boost, but I am still on the fence about it. nice to have, but it is still only ~100 seconds between rests that you can use it. For something that is only good for less than 2 minutes, I still say AP's for it are better spent elsewhere.

    And when your rogue takes aggro away, well, there goes 60% or more of your DPS, and often a rogue with boss aggro is dead pretty soon, unless you run away (with an angry party cursing your name, LOL). So may as well be a barb or fighter or something that can take the heat. I still think dedicated boss beaters are better left to other classes, by a mile.
    Last edited by Mellkor; 02-22-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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  18. #58
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    There are plenty of mobs wail doesn't work on very well (usually) that a DC 48 assassinate works well on, such as orothons, devils, and paladins to name 3.

    I have haste boost, but I am still on the fence about it. nice to have, but it is still only ~100 seconds between rests that you can use it. For something that is only good for less than 2 minutes, I still say AP's for it are better spent elsewhere.

    And when your rogue takes aggro away, well, there goes 60% or more of your DPS, and often a rogue with boss aggro is dead pretty soon, unless you run away (with an angry party cursing your name, LOL). So may as well be a barb or fighter or something that can take the heat. I still think dedicated boss beaters are better left to other classes, by a mile.
    Rogues are one of the best boss beater classes as they are top DPS. Aggro is a non-issue, you use a dedicated tank with sufficient threat amp.
    I have at the moment an assasinate DC of 38-40 and i find myself able to assasinate all but sturdy mobs rather easily. Building your whole toon around getting those few other kind of mobs ( orthons, devils, trolls) seems just silly to me. Mostly they are melee anyway, and will be danced/wailed away by the caster. It's the ranged/caster mobs that don't get wailed, and guess what, those i can handle (almost-i'll get to 42DC with some more gear) as good as an int-rogue.

    Of course, i do mostly play with very good casters, as MiahooJunk i run with elitist players who max their toons and do things as good as the game mechanics allow them to. Which means after a wail it's rare that there's more then 1 mob still standing.

    There is another concern i have with int-based rogues: their to hit. I'm at 40 standing strenght and i have to use all clicks/past lives and buffs i can get to hit some mobs in this game. To hit everything in this game, a to hit of 70 is required. Of course, not at all times, some swapping/short buffs are allowed, but i don't see an int-based rogue getting to that number. If you can prove me wrong with a screenshot, please do!
    If you can't hit a mob, you can't assasinate it either. Which renders int-based rogues useless in some (limited) content.

    I want my rogue to be able to bring the best there is in any situation and content. That means i have to go str based with a moderate int so i can use my assasinate well on stratigic mobs and still do max-boss-beating damage and being able to hit every mob in the game.

    Also, a rogue can have up to 9 boosts, which are very very - almost game breaking- powerful if you use both haste boost and HV. Although i admit having only 6 or 8 depending on the content i run. I rarely run out on them and they're especially awesome in boss fights, which tend to last as long as a few mininutes, nice coincidence eh.
    Last edited by .Revenga.; 02-22-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Miahoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    And when your rogue takes aggro away, well, there goes 60% or more of your DPS, and often a rogue with boss aggro is dead pretty soon, unless you run away (with an angry party cursing your name, LOL). So may as well be a barb or fighter or something that can take the heat. I still think dedicated boss beaters are better left to other classes, by a mile.
    On a mob, I just bluff and kill it right away. On a boss, diplo take most of the cases, and my tower shield keeps me alive until it pulled back.

    Quote Originally Posted by .Revenga. View Post
    There is another concern i have with int-based rogues: their to hit. I'm at 40 standing strenght and i have to use all clicks/past lives and buffs i can get to hit some mobs in this game. To hit everything in this game, a to hit of 70 is required. Of course, not at all times, some swapping/short buffs are allowed, but i don't see an int-based rogue getting to that number. If you can prove me wrong with a screenshot, please do!
    If you can't hit a mob, you can't assasinate it either. Which renders int-based rogues useless in some (limited) content.
    I agree.
    Dont forget he dont have power attack. So with +4 tome and the gear he mention he can easily make it.
    He's only missing 4 STR from max and 5 lvl ups = -4.5 to hit, no power attack = +5 to hit which makes it even.
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  20. #60
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiahooJunk View Post
    On a mob, I just bluff and kill it right away. On a boss, diplo take most of the cases, and my tower shield keeps me alive until it pulled back.



    I agree.
    Dont forget he dont have power attack. So with +4 tome and the gear he mention he can easily make it.
    He's only missing 4 STR from max and 5 lvl ups = -4.5 to hit, no power attack = +5 to hit which makes it even.
    No power attack? That just makes me sad. He's behind 9 STR on me by starting stats and lvl up's, so that's 4-5 to hit or 20-25% miss chance extra.
    Anyway, i have to turn off PA aswell on high(est) AC mobs, unless there is a bard or some good debuffers.

    I also need the use of (imp) destruction to help with my to hit for these, but you cannot count on this debuff when you assasinate, unless you first hit it a few times, then go sneak and hit the kill button, that sounds rather tedious to me.
    Then there is the fact that when you autoattack, your BAB rises with each attack animation (+15 +15 +20 +25 on 1st-4th sequence). An assasinatation attempt will only ever get the base +15 bonus.
    I just can't imagine how painful it would be to wait on a 12 sec timer, hit stealth, position yourself for a double instakill, and see two 'misses' appear.
    Being able to hit epic mobs while having their aggro isn't a bad thing either.

    Again, i can believe this build is just awesome in alot of end-game content. It's great that you enjoy it and I can understand people build their rogues int-based, especially with those EMG's in the game. But if i step in a quest with my rogue, any quest, any difficulty, i want the confidence that he will perform, contribute and help my team in the best ways the DDO game mechanics allow me to.
    Last edited by .Revenga.; 02-23-2012 at 06:34 AM.
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