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  1. #21
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    And how about giving Artificers a free scroll that is bound to character?
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    Yeah, because that's worked for all the wizards who have been clamoring for easier access to new spells that come out for years...
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    When did that change happen? How was it announced?
    How else do you get 5d6 from a Greatsword?
    (And the Greensteel Greatsword is just Die Multiplier x1.5, so your litII Greatsword with Deadly Weapons should be x2.5, like non-Deadly Weapons eSoS (except the enhanced crit profile))
    Last edited by Backley; 11-14-2011 at 01:24 PM.
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  3. #23
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backley View Post
    eSoS is a Greatsword (base weapon damage 2d6) with a Die Multiplier of x2.5, giving 5d6. With Deadly Weapons, that becomes x3.5, which is 7d6 (an increase of 40%).
    This is a good description of the intent of the Deadly Weapons spell.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backley View Post
    How else do you get 5d6 from a Greatsword?
    How to get 5d6 damage from a Greatsword? There are many ways that could happen: most simply, someone could backspace over the "2d6" and type in "5d6". Someone external to the software files has no way to know the details of their data representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Backley View Post
    (And Greensteel is just Die Multiplier x1.5
    Greensteel clearly does not give a 1.5x multiplier to the weapon base, or any other constant multiplier. Going from 1d10 to 2d8 is not a 1.5x factor.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Greensteel clearly does not give a 1.5x multiplier to the weapon base, or any other constant multiplier. Going from 1d10 to 2d8 is not a 1.5x factor.
    My bad, I meant Greensteel Greatswords are x1.5. Corrected, thanks.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    Even if they get DW working correctly, it should not work on wraps.
    Handwraps aren't weapons. Handwraps are enchanted bits of cloth. They are not dangerous at all in and of themselves. What they do is supplement the user's own ability to deal damage with their bodies.
    Do handwraps have a damage die listed? Nope. Because handwraps are not weapons.
    This is the reason that handwraps work differently from other weapons. They work differently than other weapons because they aren't actually weapons at all.

    What an Artificer does is he changes the properties of a magic item with a bit of *tinkering* which allows those items to create slightly different effects. He cannot *tinker* with your hands and feet, and your specialty with your body is what creates the damage. Not the wraps. The wraps only supplement what can already be done.

    You cannot double the damage dice of handwraps because handwraps don't have any damage dice to double.
    Deadly Weapons certainly should not work on wraps.
    Making up arbitrary lore does not make it actual lore. In fact, PnP is rife with artificers being able to augment a person's body by tinkering with their gear. If you could give someone a Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance by using the associated infusion on their belt or gauntlets, why couldn't you make their fists more deadly by using the infusion on their handwraps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Yes it would, just like doubling the Epic Sword of Shadow's base damage would be gamebreaking to every other melee weapon.

    Really, they need to go back and change the concept of Deadly Weapons so it doesn't add your base damage to the damage: that approach is unfairly biased in favor of items with expanded base damages. Instead, Deadly Weapons could add some number of damage according to the type of weapon involved; that's much easier to balance.
    DEVS, READ THIS! I really like this idea. I think it'll make Deadly Weapons a bit more of a balanced spell. Of course, part of their consideration for using base damage could be that attempted balance between weapons was done by messing with base damage vs crit profiles, so weapons with poorer base damages would benefit from their great crit profile (eg khopeshes), so the smaller bonus would still be pretty good as it's affected by crits. And weapons with greater base damages would have terrible crit profiles (unarmed), so they'd need more from deadly weapons to keep it even. Of course, the eSoS breaks this entirely, having the highest base damage in the game, as well as having the best crit range in the game.

    When did that change happen? How was it announced?
    I want to say it was back before U11, when artificers were first out on lama, and Point-Blank Shot was first changed. Since PBS works like DW, people were wondering how it'd work with the epic Thornlord. Eladrin mentioned that there were intentions of tweaking epic weapons a bit, so that rather than having arbitrary base damage increases from normal to epic versions, the epic versions would receive some multiple to their base dice determined by the "class" of the epic, or something like that. So, a "class 1" epic longsword would receive a +1*(base), turning it from 1d8 to 2d8. But if it was some kind of special longsword that had 1d10 base, then the epic version would go to 2d10. But a "class 2" epic would receive a +1.5*(base), and his example was the eSoS fell in this category. That's why the eSoS went from 2d6 to 5d6.

    And, in this whole discussion, he mentioned that PBS and DW would use the weapon's original base (so 2d6 for the eSoS, and 1d8+2 for the eThornlord). Thus, the eThornlord, which gets a +1*(base) for being epic (going to 2d8+4), would only gain another 1d8+2 for PBS, and would only gain another 1d8+2 for DW, not another 2d8+4 for PBS/DW.

    However, I don't know if that was actually implemented behind the scenes or not.

  7. #27
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    This is a good description of the intent of the Deadly Weapons spell.
    Is Deadly weapons just meant to be a more powerful version of elemental weapons (ie more damage because base damage is higher then 1d6 on most weapons and base damage better then elemental damage) OR is Deadly weapons being considered (as well as other future abilities which work in a similar manner...and PBS now) as a method of providing a boost for certain weapons which may not quite win out in most cases becoming top notch...

    In other words...

    Are epic weapons and other expanded base damage dice weapons going to be changed to have mulipliers that strictly bring them back down to their base for the weapon type or are some going to have higher then base still to allow deadly weapons and similar abilities to be more effective on them making them superior to the alternative with deadly/similar ability or worse then the alternative without?
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  8. #28
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Are epic weapons and other expanded base damage dice weapons going to be changed to have mulipliers that strictly bring them back down to their base for the weapon type or are some going to have higher then base still to allow deadly weapons and similar abilities to be more effective on them making them superior to the alternative with deadly/similar ability or worse then the alternative without?
    Note: The following is still subject to change.

    We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

    Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

    The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

    This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

    We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive.

    * It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

  9. #29
    Community Member Asmodeus451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Note: The following is still subject to change.

    We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

    Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

    The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

    This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

    We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive.

    * It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]
    so after FINALLY buffing the Epic Antique Greataxe, you are going to nerf it back down again? the 3d10 (3-30) base damage is one of the things that makes it competitive with other weapons, with this change it will be reduced down to 2d12 (2-24)

    not to mention nerfing greensteel as well.
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  10. #30
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Note: The following is still subject to change.

    We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

    Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

    The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

    This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

    We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive.

    * It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]
    Deadly weapons is roughly the equivalent of an inspire courage bard song although dispellable and single target (hence needs to be cast on multiple targets). Will bard songs be buffed? I personally think bards are more limited when you factor in deadly weapons for the aritificer especially when you consider artificers only have their 1st tier of one prestige enhancement.
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  11. #31
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus451 View Post
    so after FINALLY buffing the Epic Antique Greataxe, you are going to nerf it back down again? the 3d10 (3-30) base damage is one of the things that makes it competitive with other weapons, with this change it will be reduced down to 2d12 (2-24)
    The Epic Antique Greataxe is actually planned to be a unique case, at 2[1d20]. Its average damage should increase by a small amount.

    not to mention nerfing greensteel as well.
    Most greensteel items are significantly weaker than 1.5[W]. 28 of them are buffed with this proposal, 2 are unchanged, and 7 become slightly weaker.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    The Epic Antique Greataxe is actually planned to be a unique case, at 2[1d20]. Its average damage should increase by a small amount.


    Most greensteel items are significantly weaker than 1.5[W]. 28 of them are buffed with this proposal, 2 are unchanged, and 7 become slightly weaker.
    Hmmm

    Falchions get a slight boost. They are 2d6 as GS now, the new way would have them as 3d4. Same total damage but the low end is slightly higher.

    This change would make GS khopesh even better.. we sooo needed that.

    The two unchanged... Shuriken (1d3 vs 1d2 +1) and ... Great Crossbow (3d8 vs 2d8 + 1d8)?
    Last edited by TreknaQudane; 11-14-2011 at 04:04 PM.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Note: The following is still subject to change.
    Thank you for that fairly comprehensive answer. Was very interesting to read. I see you are keeping a few special cases though from later posts. In partcular, the change to alchemical gives them a much needed damage boost versus GS.

    How are handwraps being treated for this? Are alchemical handwraps going to be dice nuetral or add the multiplier?
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    Hmmm

    Falchions get a slight boost. They are 2d6 as GS now, the new way would have them as 3d4. Same total damage but the low end is slightly higher.

    This change would make GS khopesh even better.. we sooo needed that.
    Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.

    We may modify the bonuses based on the original damage dice, to mimic the original bonus more closely, or make one handed weapons get a different bonus from two handed (or pseudo-two handed, like the bs/da) weapons.

    The two unchanged... Shuriken and ... Great Crossbow?
    Greatsword and Great Crossbow end up identical.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.

    We may modify the bonuses based on the original damage dice, to mimic the original bonus more closely, or make one handed weapons get a different bonus from two handed (or pseudo-two handed, like the bs/da) weapons.


    Greatsword and Great Crossbow end up identical.
    Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules.
    You've just made the heads of about 2,000 people explode a la Scanners.
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  17. #37
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules.
    A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that.

  18. #38
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Note: The following is still subject to change.

    We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

    Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

    The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

    This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

    We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive.

    * It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]
    What do you think of displaying the eSOS this way:

    Epic Sword of Shadow
    Base stats:
    Greatsword
    2d6

    Mutations:
    Adamantine
    +10
    'Augmented Base Damage: x2.5' - This weapon does 250% of base damage. This does not affect extra damage from Strength or other sources.
    'Augmented Critical: 18/x3' - This weapon threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18 and crits for triple damage instead of the usual. This effect stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.
    (slots as at present)

    I think that would be the clearest way to adjust it. Also, for Alchemical weapons, you could give the strong weapon types 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.6' and the weaker base weapons such as Longswords 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.8'. It's totally unambiguous, and it also makes it clear that the weapon has a special crit profile when it might otherwise not be immediately noticed (e.g. level 20 Cutthroat's Smallblade).


    Oh and if you do anything to Nightforge weapons, please consider adding more drop sources of Adamantine Ore...
    Last edited by sirgog; 11-14-2011 at 05:08 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that.
    You could make it an exceptional vertigo!
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    What do you think of displaying the eSOS this way:

    Epic Sword of Shadow
    Base stats:
    Greatsword
    2d6

    Mutations:
    Adamantine
    +10
    'Augmented Base Damage: x2.5' - This weapon does 250% of base damage. This does not affect extra damage from Strength or other sources.
    'Augmented Critical: 18/x3' - This weapon threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18 and crits for triple damage instead of the usual. This effect stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.
    (slots as at present)
    I love this. Clear, concise, and tells you what the weapon does.
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