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  1. #1
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Default Kobold AI bugged or WAI? (Extraplanar Palace)

    We built a torch path to the west. The kobolds headed south, then west, along a route that put them multiple rooms away from the torch path. They died, one by one.

    I don't expect kobolds to be smart about aggro. That's the players' job. Case in point, while the wanderers were getting killed, I was saving a kobold near the torch path who had wandered into a neighboring room to get a shiny. The kobolds heading south defied the "kobolds are just dumb" story, though. They won't go hunting for crystals until there's a torch path, and yet they're willing to forge a route so far from the torch path. My questions are:

    1. What might be causing this behavior? I'm pretty sure they weren't spooked by a monster or anything; my teammates were holding the middle just fine, and the wanderers seemed to be taking off one at a time, not as a frightened mass. Maybe they thought they knew a short cut to the end of the torch line?
    2. What can/should players be doing to ensure that questionable AI doesn't get kobolds killed?
    3. Is the AI working as intended? Can I just wait to play this quest for a couple weeks while this gets sorted out, or is this just how the quest is and will always be?

  2. #2
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    Here's the concept:

    Torches function to tell Kobolds places they can go, not places they can't.

  3. #3
    Community Member badbob117's Avatar
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    Me and my buddies had this very problem. Kobolds disregard torches all together at certain points and go wandering off hallways on their own. We have found some loitering around deep within the corridors where no torches are located..

    This quest seems really buggy for kobolds wondering all over the place. If this happened in other quests i would say it is WAI. They wander a bit in other challenges but no where near what happens in this one.. . This quest is messed up. We still complete but could do a ton better if the rascal kabolds would just follow orders...

    We need a kobold whip i think to keep em inline.

    I think what is causing the problem is the tight corridors. Walls are thin and kobolds seem to not even realize they are there at times.
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  4. #4
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    It almost appeared that the kobolds did not take the difference in height into account when deciding which crystal to go to (and then decide their path thru the maze, ignoring the torches).

    We had most of our workers run around a corner, down the stairs and into another room full of mobs for a purple crystal, at least 6 torches away from the trail.

    Also in the circles challenges the kobolds seem to sometimes be unable to use the teleporter at the start (and end up milling around it going no where), this appears to be linked to placing a 2nd teleporter (in a different circle) before removing the first.

    The kobolds are just as bad at following orders as other players now....
    Jesus saves but only Buddha makes incremental backups.

  5. #5
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Terrible ai for this specific area is being worked on per a recent dev post.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Terrible ai for this specific area is being worked on per a recent dev post.
    like druids are being worked on for years...

  7. #7
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    like druids are being worked on for years...
    yes, exactly like that.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Just chiming in to say that it seems easier to use no torches at all and just wander around guarding kobolds to see what pops up. The ones who did try to follow the torches all bunched up in a doorway and wouldn't move at all.
    A PUG is like a box of chocolates
    Get people to read your post.

  9. #9
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    A Kobold Worker has died
    A Kobold Worker has died
    A Kobold Worker has died

    *Looks at minimap to find all his Kobolds. They are all located in the opposite side of the dungeon from his torch path*
    The problem seems to be that when presented with path options its like the Kobold KNOW where the end of the torch path is, and try to get there with the most direct route instead of following it around.
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Terrible ai for this specific area is being worked on per a recent dev post.
    Good to know, Shade. Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    Just chiming in to say that it seems easier to use no torches at all and just wander around guarding kobolds to see what pops up. The ones who did try to follow the torches all bunched up in a doorway and wouldn't move at all.
    I'll be sure to try that the next time a guildie wants to run this challenge. Otherwise, I think I'll just wait for it to get fixed; overcoming bad AI might be an interesting challenge, but I'm hoping that 1) it will be more fun when it's fixed, and 2) the devs are more likely to fix it if players are refusing to run it because of the bug.
    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    The problem seems to be that when presented with path options its like the Kobold KNOW where the end of the torch path is, and try to get there with the most direct route instead of following it around.
    That might have been what I was seeing, though I didn't think our path curved that far to the south. If this is correct, then it should be possible to use torches provided we only ever draw straight-line paths.

    Again, thanks for all the productive comments!

  11. #11
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbadoc View Post
    GThat might have been what I was seeing, though I didn't think our path curved that far to the south. If this is correct, then it should be possible to use torches provided we only ever draw straight-line paths.
    Weirdly enough, they also seem to respond to aggro by running away from the torch line. If I remember CC (I didnt play this year), they tended to huddle around the torches when attacked, and try to head in the direction they were originally going. Now they simply run away from the threat in a random direction, usually resulting in them running into area's you havent cleared.
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
    Dee Hock

  12. #12
    FlimsyFirewood
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    This will be fixed in patch. They currently "smell" crystals from the other side of a wall and go around the long way.

    When attacked, they either panic and run in a random direction or freeze up and stay put until killed. Their panicked behavior may continue until whatever attacked them is dead.

  13. #13
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    This will be fixed in patch. They currently "smell" crystals from the other side of a wall and go around the long way.

    When attacked, they either panic and run in a random direction or freeze up and stay put until killed. Their panicked behavior may continue until whatever attacked them is dead.
    Is the panicked behavior intentional, or will that be changed in a patch? Its both interesting and frustrating that they run in crazy directions when panicked, but them Kobolds be wacky....
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
    Dee Hock

  14. #14
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Yeah, I actually like the idea of having unpredictable misfortunes befall kobolds. I should feel like I'm rushing around putting out fires, but instead of fires, it's kobolds who are spooked or kobolds who are being attacked. I guess that's the point of the "INCOMING!" events.

    Of course, it needs to be possible to succeed at protecting the kobolds (both from monsters and from themselves); they need decent hit points, they can't wander too far from the red line, and they can't run off through five consecutive rooms full of monsters.

    So, yeah! Thanks for the response, Flimsy! I'm glad to know the situation is under control.
    Last edited by Gorbadoc; 11-16-2011 at 01:00 PM.

  15. #15
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    When attacked, they either panic and run in a random direction or freeze up and stay put until killed. Their panicked behavior may continue until whatever attacked them is dead.
    I dislike that behavior. I want it more realistic than "A or B."

    Why? lead the attackers away from the kobolds. Kobolds no longer have line of sight to the attackers. We can keep the agro of the attackers for a long time. Minutes even, and kobolds remain frozen. Yeah, really helpful. Even though the attacker is not dead, kobolds are safe. They are NOT allowed breaks on our watch and should go back to work. If they have an issue with that, they can take it up with the Union, which btw, we have the backing of Houses. I doubt they do.

    I desire for the Kobold workers and their Union to remain working such that there will always be fresh rat in every sewer. I'm certain that the Coin Lords will keep the turkey for their own pots.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 11-16-2011 at 02:51 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member NexEverto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    This will be fixed in patch. They currently "smell" crystals from the other side of a wall and go around the long way.
    Kobold smell all! Kobold omnisnifficent!
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