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  1. #1
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    Default Temporary Spell points

    Change the torc to proc temporary spell points. The current Torc is sweet like sugar, but honestly it's to sweet and is unbalancing the game. If the torc procced 25 temporary spells points you couldn't sit around refilling your whole bar you'd get a good amount of SP back questing normally, but it wouldn't be so out of control on people who can self heal with their blue bars. It would also allow an epic torc to proc for say 40 spell points giving it a real improvement over the normal torc.

    I'd also change the proc on concordant opposition so it does a small heal rather then temporary hit points. This would allow melees to benefit from quick double procs like casters currently can.

    Last I'd suggest changing con-op weapons to be an on attack effect so you can't gain a chance to proc from both a weapon and item while shield blocking.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery walkingwolfmike's Avatar
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    First, 25 " temporary " spell points wouldn't do a darn thing.
    an EPIC torc only producing 40 SP? this is absurd.

    Second, a Conc Opp doesnt give you temporary HP. It may SEEM temporary because you are getting smacked around and LOSING hit points.

    This honestly sounds like you are a person who plays melee characters, and you aren't happy that a caster in your group was too good and didn't leave anything for you to swat.

    So, the question of the hour: do you even PLAY a caster of any type?

    in conclusion,

    / NOT SIGNED
    Last edited by walkingwolfmike; 11-05-2011 at 01:08 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkingwolfmike View Post
    Second, a Conc Opp doesnt give you temporary HP. It may SEEM temporary because you are getting smacked around and LOSING hit points.
    Concordant Opposition does, indeed, give Temporary Hit points.

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    OMG there is other thread with a melee crying for nerfs!

    waiting for shade saying " OFMG +1! nice idea.

    hehehehe

    /NOT SIGNED till melees get a stamina bar that determine your # of weapon attacks and your rolls

    ohh yes and i have a cleric,caster and melee

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDearLeader View Post
    Concordant Opposition does, indeed, give Temporary Hit points.
    I believe there's a slight distinction here that isn't being quite understood. While the hp's given by conc opp
    and a number of other items are indeed "temporary" in the sense they do not get added to your hp directly (i.e.
    you have 200 +(30) temporary hp and thus if your max is 300 hp you can't use conc opp to get back to that
    value ) they are not temporary in the more usual sense of being restricted by a time limit in the way that
    for example the temporary hp from bodyfeeder effects are.

    That being said changing the torc/conc opp effect to be temporary sp would have a huge impact on gameplay
    which is probably not desirable. While the effect on wizards/sorcs would be fairly limited (you only mostly
    get to use them when soloing since few people will wait for an arcane to torc up), it would have a huge
    impact on healers which in many quests are essentially forced to use torc/conc opp to get sp back unless they
    want to pot (eCoF, eLoB, eDQ1/2 eventhough in 2 the issue would be smaller since the archers keep hitting
    you through out).

  6. #6
    Community Member NexEverto's Avatar
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    I personally don't think that regaining SP is game breaking. Honestly, if you have the patience to sit there and wait for a caster to fill up their 2,000+ point SP bar with a ~5% chance proc for ~25 SP then I admire you. Personally, I'd just give them a pot or find another group. Honestly though, the amount they'd waste on scrolls as well as the time wasted would make me giggle. If the procs are changed to 'Temp SP', would Bard Songs, Shroud Pools and SP clickies be treated the same? It's not practical and from my standpoint, not logical.

    /Not Signed
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkingwolfmike View Post
    First, 25 " temporary " spell points wouldn't do a darn thing.
    an EPIC torc only producing 40 SP? this is absurd.

    Second, a Conc Opp doesnt give you temporary HP. It may SEEM temporary because you are getting smacked around and LOSING hit points.

    This honestly sounds like you are a person who plays melee characters, and you aren't happy that a caster in your group was too good and didn't leave anything for you to swat.

    So, the question of the hour: do you even PLAY a caster of any type?

    in conclusion,

    / NOT SIGNED
    As has been shown it is temporary and temporary effects don't stack. I have a cleric, wizard, bard, barbarian and rogue. The wizard bard barbarian are all on their second life. The cleric has the torc and con-op.

    The amount of 25SP is free maximize on your next spell and then you'd get it again. The numbers could be tweaked, but I think 25 would be about correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by bebeosita View Post
    OMG there is other thread with a melee crying for nerfs!

    waiting for shade saying " OFMG +1! nice idea.

    hehehehe

    /NOT SIGNED till melees get a stamina bar that determine your # of weapon attacks and your rolls

    ohh yes and i have a cleric,caster and melee
    I believe I've healed with you actually. Are you on Orien?

    If melee had unlimited damage clickies it would be similar, but they don't. Your comparison between swinging a weapon for dps and having unlimited SPs is compeletely unfounded and since you play all types of casters you must realize that already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawel_San View Post
    I believe there's a slight distinction here that isn't being quite understood. While the hp's given by conc opp
    and a number of other items are indeed "temporary" in the sense they do not get added to your hp directly (i.e.
    you have 200 +(30) temporary hp and thus if your max is 300 hp you can't use conc opp to get back to that
    value ) they are not temporary in the more usual sense of being restricted by a time limit in the way that
    for example the temporary hp from bodyfeeder effects are.

    That being said changing the torc/conc opp effect to be temporary sp would have a huge impact on gameplay
    which is probably not desirable. While the effect on wizards/sorcs would be fairly limited (you only mostly
    get to use them when soloing since few people will wait for an arcane to torc up), it would have a huge
    impact on healers which in many quests are essentially forced to use torc/conc opp to get sp back unless they
    want to pot (eCoF, eLoB, eDQ1/2 eventhough in 2 the issue would be smaller since the archers keep hitting
    you through out).
    Temporary effects don't stack and hit points are not as versatile as spell points. Most self healing types can gain far more hit points from 20sp then con-op gives. They also can gain alot more sp because they keep gaining them over and over.

    You can easily torc up just by having aggro and claiming that only people with the torc could run those quests/raids without potting shows it's unbalancing effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by NexEverto View Post
    I personally don't think that regaining SP is game breaking. Honestly, if you have the patience to sit there and wait for a caster to fill up their 2,000+ point SP bar with a ~5% chance proc for ~25 SP then I admire you. Personally, I'd just give them a pot or find another group. Honestly though, the amount they'd waste on scrolls as well as the time wasted would make me giggle. If the procs are changed to 'Temp SP', would Bard Songs, Shroud Pools and SP clickies be treated the same? It's not practical and from my standpoint, not logical.

    /Not Signed
    It's a 10% chance according to the wiki

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Transform_Kinetic_Energy

    I never personally tested but it's a huge difference between a torc and con-op which has a 4% chance - though I'm not sure if that's actually 4% or 4% of either hp or sp.

    If you don't have a torc you don't understand just how powerful it is and what a huge differnce it makes in how you play. In quests with large amounts of mobs with physical attacks you can easily stay at full SP if you know what you're doing.

    Bard song regen shroud pools and sp clickies are all limited theirs a point where they run out or they at least rely on having another party member - well barring shroud pools but you can't take those with you. I suppose the torc could break but it's never happened to me. Changing it to a temporary SP proc would make it closer to an epic ring of spell storing in power the current version makes every other form of sp regeneration seem like a joke.

  8. #8
    Community Member NexEverto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthetic View Post
    -Snip-

    It's a 10% chance according to the wiki

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Transform_Kinetic_Energy

    I never personally tested but it's a huge difference between a torc and con-op which has a 4% chance - though I'm not sure if that's actually 4% or 4% of either hp or sp.

    If you don't have a torc you don't understand just how powerful it is and what a huge differnce it makes in how you play. In quests with large amounts of mobs with physical attacks you can easily stay at full SP if you know what you're doing.

    Bard song regen shroud pools and sp clickies are all limited theirs a point where they run out or they at least rely on having another party member - well barring shroud pools but you can't take those with you. I suppose the torc could break but it's never happened to me. Changing it to a temporary SP proc would make it closer to an epic ring of spell storing in power the current version makes every other form of sp regeneration seem like a joke.
    I was using ~5% to cover both situations for the Conc Op gear as well as the Torc (I rather low ball statistics when they're not being used for mathematical equations). My Melee Favored Soul has a Torc and I'm aware that it enjoys procing, though I wouldn't go as far to say as its game breaking, between Shrines I probably only get an extra two or three fully empowered Heals. I've done tests to see how long it takes to regen my full SP pool and how many scrolls I need to burn to keep myself up. I decided after doing it that it wasn't practical tactic to use in typical game play, honestly, at this stage eLoB (Since its new and they removed the only shrine...) is the only Quest/Raid I'd ever try to do it in, and with some completions ranging from 60 - 120+ minutes you can understand why.

    My Bard with 25 Songs per rest will very rarely run out of SP Songs as long as she's carrying her Epic Elyd Edge (Any Elyd Edge works though as the Anthem is the same). The few times I've ever run out have always been due to my lack of attention to who's getting songs twice, deaths, or a caster orientated party. To me, Bard Songs are a limitless resource as you believe the Torc to be, but I wouldn't call for them to be nurfed.

    As for Conc Op 'temporary HP', well, its not actually temporary, once the HP has proc'd it can sit on your bar forever, I believe the idea of it being temporary was created by confusing Lifeshield and similar time based effects with it. The way I see the Conc Op HP proc is a stack DR 30/-, and I somehow get the feeling thats what the Dev's intended it as too. Having it proc a Cure Light Wounds on a melee wouldn't be all that useful, in reality, with even a half decent healer DR 30/- is still better. Of course, that's just my take on it.

    Healers Bounty (http://ddowiki.com/page/Healer%27s_Bounty), do you believe that should become a Temp HP Proc?
    Last edited by NexEverto; 11-05-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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  9. #9
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    can i just say no thank you?

    here's the thing - I just got the torq. I dont want to see it whacked witht he nerf bat before I get the chance to really put it into action.

    So thanks for the idea, but /not signed.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthetic View Post
    Temporary effects don't stack and hit points are not as versatile as spell points. Most self healing types can gain far more hit points from 20sp then con-op gives. They also can gain alot more sp because they keep gaining them over and over.

    Temporary hp quite certainly do stack (which is why with lich form+conc opp you can have (+60)
    temporary hit points)

    <snip>
    You can easily torc up just by having aggro and claiming that only people with the torc could run those quests/raids without potting shows it's unbalancing effect. In any group that has even slight
    amounts of dps there is no way you will be able to torc up just by having aggro. In a normally run quest
    where people don't wait for me to regain sp by sitting somewhere for 2-3 mins at a time I get about 300-400sp
    back assuming I have almost all the aggro between 2 conc opps and a torc



    Bard song regen shroud pools and sp clickies are all limited theirs a point where they run out or they at least rely on having another party member - well barring shroud pools but you can't take those with you. I suppose the torc could break but it's never happened to me. Changing it to a temporary SP proc would make it closer to an epic ring of spell storing in power the current version makes every other form of sp regeneration seem like a joke. Again unless you're soloing or people are waiting for you, you get about twice as many sp
    back on average from en epic ring of spell storing as you would wearing 2 conc opps and torc. Torc has
    fairly good durability but I've had it get worn/almost broken in elite ws solo (with 5 pikers at door) and in
    eCoF. The thing that usually goes way before torc though are your robes/shield.

    edit: fixed quote
    Last edited by Rawel_San; 11-05-2011 at 07:20 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NexEverto View Post
    I was using ~5% to cover both situations for the Conc Op gear as well as the Torc (I rather low ball statistics when they're not being used for mathematical equations). My Melee Favored Soul has a Torc and I'm aware that it enjoys procing, though I wouldn't go as far to say as its game breaking, between Shrines I probably only get an extra two or three fully empowered Heals. I've done tests to see how long it takes to regen my full SP pool and how many scrolls I need to burn to keep myself up. I decided after doing it that it wasn't practical tactic to use in typical game play, honestly, at this stage eLoB (Since its new and they removed the only shrine...) is the only Quest/Raid I'd ever try to do it in, and with some completions ranging from 60 - 120+ minutes you can understand why.
    You would feel pretty much no change then in normal questing. If they changed the Torc maybe they could put the shrine back - ok probably they would just change the Torc and not have the shrine regardless, but still they removed the shrine to make it more difficult yet you don't have to have it if you have the Torc - to me that seems to point to the Torc being unbalancing. If the Torcs effect was more common I could understand why you may need it at a certain level but it's currently one item from one raid but is nearly required in certain quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by NexEverto View Post
    My Bard with 25 Songs per rest will very rarely run out of SP Songs as long as she's carrying her Epic Elyd Edge (Any Elyd Edge works though as the Anthem is the same). The few times I've ever run out have always been due to my lack of attention to who's getting songs twice, deaths, or a caster orientated party. To me, Bard Songs are a limitless resource as you believe the Torc to be, but I wouldn't call for them to be nurfed.
    Bard song regenerates roughly 200sp in 4min just counting vigor it's more like 300 if you're playing enough songs with the bursts. Regardless it's generally limited by time the torc is not in 4min you could be full. The more low damage hits you can get in the faster your sp regenerates, which is why I'm not trying to change "regenerating sp" I'm simply trying to cut down on the rate which the torc generates sp. The alternate would be to decrease it's proc rate which I don't think would be nearly as fun. I've seen con-op it's completely unimpressive in comparison. I don't believe this would cut down the value of the Torc it would just make it more balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by NexEverto View Post
    As for Conc Op 'temporary HP', well, its not actually temporary, once the HP has proc'd it can sit on your bar forever, I believe the idea of it being temporary was created by confusing Lifeshield and similar time based effects with it. The way I see the Conc Op HP proc is a stack DR 30/-, and I somehow get the feeling thats what the Dev's intended it as too. Having it proc a Cure Light Wounds on a melee wouldn't be all that useful, in reality, with even a half decent healer DR 30/- is still better. Of course, that's just my take on it.

    Healers Bounty (http://ddowiki.com/page/Healer%27s_Bounty), do you believe that should become a Temp HP Proc?
    Temporary hit points from the same source do not stack so it doesn't matter if you get two procs in a row you don't get the full benefit of the second proc if the first is still on your bar. It's been calculated to be 1.2/- DR based on proc rate. Changing it to be a heal effect would just let it stack so in the case of a lucky double proc you get a 2.4/- DR - you know if you view being healed as your DR as most barbarians do

    Healer's bounty is 2% proc rate vs 10% and again hit points are not nearly as useful as spell points - you can't do damage with them they just keep you moving about. A 108 hit point heal vs 100 mana, which is easily converted into a lot more then 108 hit points it's not really comparable. You're likely to take more then 108 hit points of damage waiting for healers bounty to proc where the 100 mana can easily be used to heal 500+ hit points and it procs more consistently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawel_San View Post
    edit: fixed quote
    Temporary hit points from the same effect don't stack. So yeah you can get 60 hit points 30 from your demonic shield and 30 from the con-op or whatever. You already stated you couldn't pull off eCoF without using pots so are you backing off of that stance?

    Why would people wait for you just run ahead. The amount of mana the torc returns vs the amount of time is multiplied the more physical attacks you take, which is the problem. Changing it to a temporary spell point bonus - doesn't have to be time limited - would bring it closer to pretty much any other spell returning item in the game. Perhaps the epic ring of spell storing is a bad comparison for "normal questing" but any item in the same level gives 2-3 charges of 20-50 sp the torc easily grants 10 times that amount even when you're not trying to get a ton of sp back.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthetic View Post
    <snip>

    Why would people wait for you just run ahead. The amount of mana the torc returns vs the amount of time is multiplied the more physical attacks you take, which is the problem. Changing it to a temporary spell point bonus - doesn't have to be time limited - would bring it closer to pretty much any other spell returning item in the game. Perhaps the epic ring of spell storing is a bad comparison for "normal questing" but any item in the same level gives 2-3 charges of 20-50 sp the torc easily grants 10 times that amount even when you're not trying to get a ton of sp back.


    Who runs ahead you or the party? Either way in places where the torc does actually make a difference in end
    game content (elite amrath, epics) having the caster/healer not be with party usually means trouble, and if
    the rest of the group is self sufficient enough without them I don't see what your gripe is about anyhow. Whenever
    I run in a full group any of the quests where I usually use the torc/conc opp as a tool for completing solo, the
    sp I get back is rarely over 3-400 between shrines and if I'm zerging and have aggro of 90% of the stuff 90% of
    the time. The obvious reason for this is that things die a lot faster if 5 more people are killing them. When you
    do the whole torcing up I will 5-10 mobs (amrath) and sit still self healing for upwards of 2-3 minutes in epics
    since the damage is higher you can rarely take more then 2-3 mobs at a time (particularly if self healing) and
    the torc up time is usually 6+ minutes. That method gets used in groups extremely rarely and only in the
    hardest quests. I really don't see what exactly your problem is with torc/conc opp. That your melee feels left
    out because you can't regen rages boosts? A melee without boosts/rages is still usually quite decent dps, a
    caster without mana is almost useless and a healer is reduced to scrolling.

    Also there is a number of methods of regaining lots of hp for melees SF pots and high heal amp is one (healing
    400-700 hp per pot is quite possible). My monk heals from 100hp to full in under a minute using bodyfeeder
    wraps of vampirism which is very comparable to the regen speeds of torc except I don't have to burn scrolls to
    do it.

    Just as an aside before teth, or someone else shows up here to screenshot a solo eCoF without a torc on
    some character or other, I realize you don't need to torc up to no pot or short man eCoF, but the average (and
    I'm using average quite wrongly here) group will have trouble no potting without some mana regen.

  13. #13

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    As it stands, casters do not do more damage based on character stats, while other classes do gain in damage output based on higher stats. This means that a melee with a 38 strength will see a higher damage output per second compared to a melee with a 30 strength, even at the same level. Casters don't get this sort of advantage, so items like the Torc really don't do a HUGE amount. What does it do, one extra cast with a higher level spell? Is that REALLY a big threat to you when you have anyone with UMD able to use heal scrolls to help heal melee characters?

    There are some balance issues in the game, but it is mostly due to some flaws in how the classes are balanced. A different game system would have caster stats having a direct impact on spell power, and melees having a stamina bar that would affect their ability to use some abilities. Power attack should boost damage output, but drain stamina down so you can't swing for as long. Hit Points should be a function of how much damage you can take, and as such, you don't get much in the way of hit points as you level up, even if your ability to hit and avoid damage should improve.

    In the original pen and paper rulebooks back in the days of AD&D, the reason you even get more hit points when you level up is that the character can avoid taking damage better(via being able to dodge or block attacks better as you level up) as well as just being more used to being hurt, so not being knocked out as easily. So stamina was actually a part of the idea that hit points go up as you level up. The problem is that MUDflation crept into computer games where people see hit points as an end all, be all for how powerful a character is.

    My own system that I wrote up back in my college days had it where humans would have between 10 and 20 hit points, based on "constitution", and that would not change unless you actually gained in that stat to boost how much damage you could take(which was a function of getting hurt and healing over time). Leveling up gave you improvements on being able to dodge, higher stamina to dodge and deflect blows by weapon/shield/armor, and that kept it balanced against casters, which DO end up more powerful in the end, but early on, have problems like one strong willed enemy needing all spell power to put them to sleep, and even at the high end game where casters have to be intelligent about how to use their power.

  14. #14
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    Oh yeah. U melee have CHEAP pots (like e.g. silver flame or cure serious) and we have to pay 15k plat for mnemonic or
    TP points. So yeah... take away our TORC too... OO

    Idiotic.

    I agree - but if it gets in my healer on the beggining of every epic raid will collect from people 1 mnemonic per person.
    Or better. Im going to stop healing melees, Why to heal them? If u do it good, theyre going to put thread in forums that something i have is OP and want to take it away.

    That was with wings, DoT complaining, TORC complaning.
    Maybe we should take away madstone rage? I think its totally OP. And haste! Its helping melees too much id say.

    Next time when ull be waiting for healer t join any group on elite, dont cry if u wait 3 hours and no divine will join.

    /NOT signed.
    Last edited by Kayla93; 11-06-2011 at 06:25 AM.

  15. #15
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    /not signed

    Why do people keep taking their subjective view and asking for nerfs....

    if YOU think YOUR torc is over powered, dont wear it...... why should your experiance and opinion effect me?

    Play your own game people and dont keep trying to force change onto others game.
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  16. #16
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    it works fine the way it is there is no need or desire to change anything and introduce a chance for things to get bugged.


    Beware the Sleepeater

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    /Not signed. It's fine the way it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    if YOU think YOUR torc is over powered, dont wear it...... why should your experiance and opinion effect me?
    Because games need to be designed or they cease to exist as games.

    If everyone's going by their own rules then you get a random mush, worse than Second Life.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Because games need to be designed or they cease to exist as games.

    If everyone's going by their own rules then you get a random mush, worse than Second Life.
    And guess what, the melee to arcane balance will ALWAYS be out of balance due to flaws in the D&D game system, and the mudflation that all computer games bring. Without mudflation, a single fireball spell would knock down half of most mobs up to level 8, and the remaining mobs would be at under half of their hit points. Level 10 being 100 hit points was something of a balance point, so 10*3(half of the max a fireball spell would do as the average), would really do a number on most enemies. Most enemies do NOT have max hit points for their level. This is where everything in the current game system is broken. Fireball is SUPPOSED to be a decently powerful spell if cast by a level 10 wizard/sorcerer, yet it is really nothing in DDO. Delayed Blast fireball, a level 7 spell, is also far from being powerful compared to the mobs you are fighting when that would be your spell of choice.

    So, the balance is wacked, where insta-kill ends up being the way casters are seen as viable in terms of damage output. Without Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death, melees end up dominating in most situations due to mudflation and a broken game balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targonis View Post
    And guess what, the melee to arcane balance will ALWAYS be out of balance due to flaws in the D&D game system
    The only sense in which that can be true is that balance is complicated and unlikely to ever reach 10e-5% imperfections. Aside from that, the DDO designers can and should make changes to improve balance between types of characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Targonis View Post
    Without mudflation, a single fireball spell would knock down half of most mobs up to level 8, and the remaining mobs would be at under half of their hit points. Level 10 being 100 hit points was something of a balance point, so 10*3(half of the max a fireball spell would do as the average), would really do a number on most enemies. Most enemies do NOT have max hit points for their level. This is where everything in the current game system is broken. Fireball is SUPPOSED to be a decently powerful spell if cast by a level 10 wizard/sorcerer, yet it is really nothing in DDO.
    Buffing Fireball like that would worsen the existing balance problems. (Note that in D&D 3.5, Fireball was on the low end of a Wizard's choices)

    Quote Originally Posted by Targonis View Post
    Without Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death, melees end up dominating in most situations due to mudflation and a broken game balance.
    That's essentially the opposite of the current problem faced by DDO. There was a "spell pass" this year, you see...

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