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  1. #81
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    404,

    I have stated numerous times on the forums since EU released that I find the game overall to be a worse game as time has passed since EU. I have also had negative feedback deleted more times since EU released then prior to EU's release by orders of magnitude.

    It is difficult to judge success by what you hear from a closed community where all the incentives are to be a yes man (ML) or from a forum where negative feedback is often eliminated.

    Let me be clear on this. The game is getting worse not better in my opinion. Even with new content and new classes the game is less fun then it was.

    Onto another subject...leaking and abuse of gameplay advantage material from ML.

    This should never happen. Not because security should be better or some other impossible to realize idealization. No this should never happen because anything that provides these sorts of advantages should be an open discussion with the real DDO community.

    Example...
    Wounding and puncturing changes. These should have went to the live community on Lammania. Let the community actually digest them there and state if the idea is horrible or not. No one gains an advantage over others.
    I think if something is a hot topic in ML, it should be topic on Lama. Since many of us are not on ML, we cannot discuss how Puncture and Wounding rule changes were going to come across. I wasn't part of Lama at that time, so I couldn't discuss it if it hit there. If Lama was even available for that.

    Assuming that players on ML are yes people is only going to get your opinion less attention. I am pretty sure yes people are summarilly discarded from focus groups, as well as no people. I am also pretty sure people with negative feedback are scrutinized more than people with positive feedback. Not the players, but the feedback. It is pretty obvious from the posts made by devs and community members that constructive feedback, positive or negative, is what works best.

    I think part of the reason a lot of what people like Shade says gets soo much attention is due to the plain as day fact that they put a ton of effort in being constructive with their feedback. And offer examples.

    As much as it sounds like doing the work for turbine, it is not. They still have to share the idea among their peers and digest the ramifications of it and how it would be intigrated into the game. Then they actually have to impliment it. And as small as changing a +1 to a +2 sounds, programattically, it can be a nightmare. Ask any developer/code writer how hard it is to add new code to existing code. Especially one without notes.

  2. #82
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Nonsense.

    Word spreads quickly in game about these sorts of things. Anyone making a big ticket trade/purchase can log onto the forums and check or ask some people in game if the information is available for public consumption.

    This is like arguing the difference between insider trading and a public announcement about a companies profits are the same because some people do not read the newspapers.
    Word spreads quickly...in some circles of players. I met players who months after the W/P change went live on the servers still did not know about it and were wondering if the mobs had gotten beefed up. The rest of the party was kinda shocked they had not heard, but they hadn't. It was mentioned it was all over the forums, and they replied, I never bother with the forums since it all flame and venting anyway. Even in my own guild I was often the main contact many had with the news of the day on the forums since they knew I was forum junkie. So yes I view it as a matter of scope and degree the differences between ML and Lamma. Both offer advance info to those on them.

    But since it is inferred that ML gets to see some stuff before Lamma, what if someone acting on "insider news" actually ended up wrong. That the powers that be (developers) decide that the changes are not good and will not in fact go forward to Lamma or Live. For example: if the W/P change had gotten aborted after being seen on ML for a bit. If the abort is after they sold off all theirs for chump change and are now out a bunch of otherwise uber weapons. Acting on Insider info is fraught with peril and risk. The situation can change, the authorities might still come down hard on the violator, even if they got it wrong (either the SEC or Turbine).
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  3. #83
    Community Member altrocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    Word spreads quickly...in some circles of players. I met players who months after the W/P change went live on the servers still did not know about it and were wondering if the mobs had gotten beefed up. The rest of the party was kinda shocked they had not heard, but they hadn't. It was mentioned it was all over the forums, and they replied, I never bother with the forums since it all flame and venting anyway. Even in my own guild I was often the main contact many had with the news of the day on the forums since they knew I was forum junkie. So yes I view it as a matter of scope and degree the differences between ML and Lamma. Both offer advance info to those on them.

    But since it is inferred that ML gets to see some stuff before Lamma, what if someone acting on "insider news" actually ended up wrong. That the powers that be (developers) decide that the changes are not good and will not in fact go forward to Lamma or Live. For example: if the W/P change had gotten aborted after being seen on ML for a bit. If the abort is after they sold off all theirs for chump change and are now out a bunch of otherwise uber weapons. Acting on Insider info is fraught with peril and risk. The situation can change, the authorities might still come down hard on the violator, even if they got it wrong (either the SEC or Turbine).

    You don't say...


    While that may be true in theory, it's a little more tricky in practice. Proving that someone was using their insider knowledge can be extremely hard (yes, even in the real world). As it was pointed out before, sometimes inaction gives the positive benefit, not action (Saving that +4 tome because you know TR is about to come out. collecting Reaver/Abbot raid loot you would otherwise have passed because of raid loot upgrades coming out, saving up otherwise lackluster metal-type weapons for crafting because you know crafting is coming out, etc). How do you even notice these things without logging in to the person's account on live?

    Also, after a while, you get a feel for how things happen. If something is being ripped apart on the forums by players, then you know it will probably be addressed/fixed/whatever at some point, especially if it's causing people to just not log in. So the risk is minimal for that, I would think. Obviously, none of us can know or talk about if that's the case, but judging from how things go on Lamma, those of us who go there for each update can pretty much tell what's going to change before it goes live (Little to nothing, lately). At the point where it's on the preview server, so much work has gone into it that there's a very high barrier to just scrapping something or taking it in a completely different direction. It's similar to how gamblers will continue to place bets once they've gone into deep debt from gambling. They figure they're so far in that they have to keep playing and hope for a big score to get them out of the hole they dug.
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  4. #84
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    I think if something is a hot topic in ML, it should be topic on Lama. Since many of us are not on ML, we cannot discuss how Puncture and Wounding rule changes were going to come across. I wasn't part of Lama at that time, so I couldn't discuss it if it hit there. If Lama was even available for that.
    I think you misunderstand me. I am saying that this sort of thing should not happen because policy at Turbine should change to put stuff that they know would provide a huge opportunity for ML players over live players onto Lammania at the same time it goes on ML.

    That way everyone has the information who wants the information. Not the select few who have an inherent advantage to stay on the good side of the developers.
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  5. #85
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    So yes I view it as a matter of scope and degree the differences between ML and Lamma. Both offer advance info to those on them.
    Really you do not understand the difference between secret information that only a select few can access and public information that anyone can access?

    It is the difference between a clueless guy asking about w/p prices to their guildies and being answered with an answer about how they got nerfed and are not really worth anything now and the difference between them being given a high price tag.
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  6. #86
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Really you do not understand the difference between secret information that only a select few can access and public information that anyone can access?

    It is the difference between a clueless guy asking about w/p prices to their guildies and being answered with an answer about how they got nerfed and are not really worth anything now and the difference between them being given a high price tag.
    N o I understand that. What I see is more a matter of scale and degree however. If ML had 1000 people (number from space), and 10000 (another number from space) visit Lamma and the game has 200,000 (yet another number from space (please duck the major asteroid today!)) players, even then MOST of the players do not have first hand knowledge of the change. Depending on contacts and lets say each pool affects 5 to 10 others, then it would be possible the even with changes on Lamma being known by 10 x 10K or 100K players, that would still mean half the population was clueless and subject to being in the dark.

    I fail to see how having 10% in the know vs 50% in the know (after word spreading) differs substantially in the aspect of being "fair to all". It is still a matter of degree. With a sizable portion of the player base clueless about it and potential victims of their ignorance of changes.

    The difference I see is you consider info once it hits Lamma as being available/known to all, and I see it as still being somewhat of a mystery and unknown to many players in the game. I used to PUG a lot, and the amount of ignorance about the game and new game systems and rules was amazing. When running with guild members, those same changes were common knowledge. If someone runs pretty much all the time with in the know people, then it is easy to expect everyone else to be in the know. Its like in real life when I start talking sports with someone and they don't even know which Major League Teams play in town. Just hard to fathom. Or someone who is completely clueless about government leaders and who is in charge there or world events. Simply boggles my mind. Earthquake/Tusnami in Japan? Umm never heard about it....sigh.
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  7. #87
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    I think you misunderstand me. I am saying that this sort of thing should not happen because policy at Turbine should change to put stuff that they know would provide a huge opportunity for ML players over live players onto Lammania at the same time it goes on ML.

    That way everyone has the information who wants the information. Not the select few who have an inherent advantage to stay on the good side of the developers.
    In best HK-47 voice:
    Speculation:
    Well the whole problem with that is what gets left for Lam is not always what people talk about in ML. If it weren't that way, I would totally agree. But when some features or changes don't make it past ML, then it is just rumor milling to push comments from ML to forums.

    Supposition:
    I think though, that if they do push something from ML to Lam, it should be part of the topics for Lam. It would be nice if any gameplay feature was subject to change in ML that a topic would be made on Lam forums if it was going to make it there.

    Conjecture:
    Doing that though requires cross group collaboration and communication that isn't always acceptable by everyone involved.
    Last edited by Seikojin; 11-08-2011 at 05:14 PM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    standard? what??

    Name one other successful major mmo that does this.

    Pre-release its standard. 5/6 years down the road? ...

    and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle. TERAs is demolished already and they aren't planning a release tell mid-late 2012 for example. tons of closed beta videos all over youtube.
    Haven't waded through the other 100 posts yet, so apologies if someone else mentioned this:

    EQ1 and EQ2 used that process.. while they've faded into the woodwork for the most part, they were highly successful for years.. every expansion was accompanied with private invites (both individuals and entire guilds w/charcopies) to a special invite-only 'beta' server, mostly for getting player feedback rather than actual bug-hunting...

  9. #89
    The Hatchery karsion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    N o I understand that. What I see is more a matter of scale and degree however. If ML had 1000 people (number from space), and 10000 (another number from space) visit Lamma and the game has 200,000 (yet another number from space (please duck the major asteroid today!)) players, even then MOST of the players do not have first hand knowledge of the change. Depending on contacts and lets say each pool affects 5 to 10 others, then it would be possible the even with changes on Lamma being known by 10 x 10K or 100K players, that would still mean half the population was clueless and subject to being in the dark.

    I fail to see how having 10% in the know vs 50% in the know (after word spreading) differs substantially in the aspect of being "fair to all". It is still a matter of degree. With a sizable portion of the player base clueless about it and potential victims of their ignorance of changes.

    The difference I see is you consider info once it hits Lamma as being available/known to all, and I see it as still being somewhat of a mystery and unknown to many players in the game. I used to PUG a lot, and the amount of ignorance about the game and new game systems and rules was amazing. When running with guild members, those same changes were common knowledge. If someone runs pretty much all the time with in the know people, then it is easy to expect everyone else to be in the know. Its like in real life when I start talking sports with someone and they don't even know which Major League Teams play in town. Just hard to fathom. Or someone who is completely clueless about government leaders and who is in charge there or world events. Simply boggles my mind. Earthquake/Tusnami in Japan? Umm never heard about it....sigh.
    Ok you see that but you fail to see the difference between information being secret when you are not a chosen one (being part of Mournlands group) and it being secret because you didn't care to look for it (don't know/care about wiki, avoiding forums, not logging into Lammania). Forced ignorance vs willing ignorance, see?

  10. #90
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karsion View Post
    Ok you see that but you fail to see the difference between information being secret when you are not a chosen one (being part of Mournlands group) and it being secret because you didn't care to look for it (don't know/care about wiki, avoiding forums, not logging into Lammania). Forced ignorance vs willing ignorance, see?
    But if the point is that some players know something that others don't and are able to take advantage of that ignorance, what does it matter how that difference came to be, if the real concern is that difference. Perhaps my point is being to subtle here. I am trying to distinguish if the concern is the info disparity or the fact that even those who might otherwise have ferreted it out now fall into the not knowing side of the equation.

    If it is truely ANYONE with advance knowledge scamming those who do not have it (for whatever reason, including being lazy and clueless) that concerns people, then even Lamma land presents that same threat. It does not seem like Lamma concerns as many however, so the principle is now not so rigid but more along the lines of ML is bad because no matter what one does, one can't choose to be one of the ones in the know just by ones own activity.

    From my perspective, whether it is a small handful of in the knows taking advantage or hundreds or even thousands, they are still taking advantage of those who are not in the know. Both are uncool. It is like some of those AH postings where the seller is asking scam level pricing on items you can purchase for a LOT less from shops and vendors. Most of the time that is simply an attempt to scam the ignorant. (In the real world EBAY and places like that see that kind of stuff all the time, and the old adage about a fool and his money unfortunately rings true all too often.)
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  11. #91
    Community Member altrocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    But if the point is that some players know something that others don't and are able to take advantage of that ignorance, what does it matter how that difference came to be, if the real concern is that difference. Perhaps my point is being to subtle here. I am trying to distinguish if the concern is the info disparity or the fact that even those who might otherwise have ferreted it out now fall into the not knowing side of the equation.

    If it is truely ANYONE with advance knowledge scamming those who do not have it (for whatever reason, including being lazy and clueless) that concerns people, then even Lamma land presents that same threat. It does not seem like Lamma concerns as many however, so the principle is now not so rigid but more along the lines of ML is bad because no matter what one does, one can't choose to be one of the ones in the know just by ones own activity.

    From my perspective, whether it is a small handful of in the knows taking advantage or hundreds or even thousands, they are still taking advantage of those who are not in the know. Both are uncool. It is like some of those AH postings where the seller is asking scam level pricing on items you can purchase for a LOT less from shops and vendors. Most of the time that is simply an attempt to scam the ignorant. (In the real world EBAY and places like that see that kind of stuff all the time, and the old adage about a fool and his money unfortunately rings true all too often.)
    That's like saying it's unfair that new players don't know everything vets know about the game. The information is available (from multiple sources no less) when changes appear on Lamma. If you don't care about that, then okay, you might miss some things and maybe get ripped off, but that blame is on YOU. If someone from ML did the same thing, with no one outside of ML knowing about the changes that make the trade/action/whatever a ripoff, then the blame is on THEM. If you do not see the big difference there, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
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  12. #92
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    The difference I think is I am choosing to blame the perpetrator of the rip off rather than laying the blame on the victim who "should have known better" in this scenario.
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  13. #93
    Community Member Pfold's Avatar
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    Just a couple of thoughts after reading through this thread:

    I do not believe people recruited for ML are the correct type of person/player. Anyone can tell you whether or not something is fun but not everyone knows where to look for things that are probably out of whack. How fun is something that doesn't work? You want folks that can find things you don't want getting into live servers? Find yourself people that like glitching in FPS type games.

    Play time by the player should also be taken into consideration. What good is it to have someone that ordinarily plays 8-10 hours a week? How much of that time do you really expect them to sacrifice? You want game junkies. I've seen the Lamma turnout for several updates now (with TP incentives)and can only imagine the regular turnout of ML to be even worse. There was what? 100 people at that last 'event' on Lamma?

    I personally believe that having a compensatory system in place for testers is required. The compensation should be a big enough incentive that the tester doesn't want to put it into jeopardy by breaking the NDA. Seems fair enough. You want people to do a job for you... ...well then pay them. How much (or what quality) do you actually expect to get for free or for very little?

    Let's stop with the 'preview' misnomer. I go into a theater to watch a movie and see some previews. I don't normally see the producers there with a clipboard asking me a bunch of questions afterwards. If that did happen it would just seem awkward and unprofessional. You want to put out a true preview, load some unreleased scenes from quests or whatnot to your youtube channel. That is a preview. Perhaps 'Review' server is what was in mind and someone just made a typo? /shrug.

    Lastly, get your cleric some hp's. When you joined our group you had 25% hp's less than our group gimp. I might even have some items to help you out. I say this in a friendly manner. Next time I might have the star...
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfold View Post
    Anyone can tell you whether or not something is fun but not everyone knows where to look for things that are probably out of whack. How fun is something that doesn't work? You want folks that can find things you don't want getting into live servers?
    There is no reason to think that mournland players aren't finding most all of those problems.

    After all, simply being informed of a problem doesn't make Turbine go and fix it. When they don't fix something reported on live, and they didn't fix it reported on Lamanina, the logical conclusion is that it was reported on Mournland too and they didn't fix it then either.

    It appears that the current limiting factor in game quality isn't detecting these problems, but actually going in there to fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pfold View Post
    You want people to do a job for you... ...well then pay them. How much (or what quality) do you actually expect to get for free or for very little?
    What developers would they cut to pay these new testers?

    What can they expect to get for free: they can hope to get a little more than zero, and most likely they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pfold View Post
    Let's stop with the 'preview' misnomer. I go into a theater to watch a movie and see some previews. I don't normally see the producers there with a clipboard asking me a bunch of questions afterwards. If that did happen it would just seem awkward and unprofessional.
    Newsflash: That is exactly what happens at preview film screenings. You get free tickets, and then the marketing guys come out with their clipboards at the end to focus you all.

  15. #95
    Community Member Pfold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    There is no reason to think that mournland players aren't finding most all of those problems.

    After all, simply being informed of a problem doesn't make Turbine go and fix it.* (Here's your answer to you next question) When they don't fix something reported on live, and they didn't fix it reported on Lamanina, the logical conclusion is that it was reported on Mournland too and they didn't fix it then either.

    There have been things that have been reported on Lammania in the past that got axed prior to going live. So by your statement I can only assume you feel noone at Turbine does a good job.

    It appears that the current limiting factor in game quality isn't detecting these problems, but actually going in there to fix it.

    Again I sense you feel that Turbine as a whole is inept given this statement. If you would have me believe this, why would it be a stretch that the folks they picked for mournlands are poor choices?

    *What developers would they cut to pay these new testers? (See your answer above- seems fairly logical to cut the people not doing as good of a job as the rest? Eh?)

    What can they expect to get for free: they can hope to get a little more than zero, and most likely they do.

    Expect little more than zero eh? Well, bad information, biased feedback or incomplete surveys would be quantified as more than zero. I'll give you that one. Kudos.

    Newsflash: That is exactly what happens at preview film screenings. You get free tickets, and then the marketing guys come out with their clipboards at the end to focus you all.

    Newsflash: when you go to see a feature movie you see several previews (you know the adverts for other movies). I have yet to have any employee at a theatre ask me for anything other than my order. Maybe it's different in your country? /shrugwhocares
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    I'm even going to give you a +1 because this is the funniest thing I've read all day:

    "What can they expect to get for free: they can hope to get a little more than zero".

    I'm sure all the naive hope to get more than zero for something free. The Sunday paper coupon section must be like a shot of adrenaline to them. Lewlz
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfold View Post
    Newsflash: when you go to see a feature movie you see several previews (you know the adverts for other movies). I have yet to have any employee at a theatre ask me for anything other than my order. Maybe it's different in your country? /shrugwhocares
    And he was pointing out that there are 2 kinds of movie previews: preview ads before a normal screening of another film, and 'preview screenings' of films that do just as he said: get feedback on upcoming films.

    Mournlands/Lamannia are 'preview screenings' of future content, not short ads. 2 definitions.
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  17. #97
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Mourlands, if I ever go there it's on invitation and totally billable. And let me tell you my services do not come cheap.

  18. #98
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, I have forum penalty points from when the Kommunity Kobald was out of control. Hitting me with multiple points for 1 infraction....like 10+ for one exchange that wasn't even that bad by current standards. Oh yeah, it was like 3-4 years ago, maybe longer, and they never go away so.... despite how much I could participate or not, I could never apply. What I am asking is that maybe we drop some of those old points after a couple years? Considering I had to call in and complain about the prevous forum monitor (to which the phone CSR told me I was not the first call recieved about that particular forum monitor) that there was nothing they could do to reduce the points. Let me say I play a ton since I have a job where I can get away with playing and a wife that goes to bed early most nights ;o) Plus, I have been around since the beginning and have a pretty grasp of the game. Despite all that, I cannot even apply. Oh well..... Turbine's loss I guess.
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  19. #99
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfold View Post
    When they don't fix something reported on live, and they didn't fix it reported on Lamanina, the logical conclusion is that it was reported on Mournland too and they didn't fix it then either.
    Given the fact that the bug reporting tool was screwed up for how freaking long...

    And your so called 'logical conclusion' is only an assumption.

    The only way to know is to be there. One thing I'm not about to do is attack an unknown group over perceived wrongs when I don't even know what they do there let alone given they are bound by an NDA they can't even defend themselves against accusations. Takes a real internet tough guy to be that balzy.

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    Community Member altrocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Given the fact that the bug reporting tool was screwed up for how freaking long...

    And your so called 'logical conclusion' is only an assumption.

    The only way to know is to be there. One thing I'm not about to do is attack an unknown group over perceived wrongs when I don't even know what they do there let alone given they are bound by an NDA they can't even defend themselves against accusations. Takes a real internet tough guy to be that balzy.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure he's attacking the Devs there, not the previewers. You know, if you actually read what was written. And it's not a bad assumption as these things go. We seen problems in Lamma all the time and they almost always go straight to live, where they persist for what? Months? Years? Some of them are glaringly obvious, too. So, assuming that someone noticed them further back on the chain, reported it, and had it promptly ignored by anyone in a position to fix it... not unreasonable. It's a pattern of behavior that has been going on for a long, long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    as for voice actors I wanted Betty White for Lolth but I got voted down.
    Khyber: Alelric - Wiz 5 (Hero), Arayaleth - Ranger 20 AA (Champion), Altrocks - Cleric 20 Radiant Servant (Champion), Zinnix - Rogue 20 Assassin (Champion)

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