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  1. #1
    Quality Assurance 404error's Avatar
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    Default Behind the Mournlands Preview Program

    Many players have applied to the Mournlands preview program, but none have ever said they were in the program. Many players say that it doesn’t exist on those facts alone. Well, I assure you that it does exist, but because Mournlanders past and present are not allowed to reveal who they are, it is difficult to prove.

    Many of them are guild members, forum friends, silent soloers or in-game idols, and they are encouraged to participate in both the live community and the Mournlands community. They do this so they do not lose touch with what brought them to Mournlands in the first place, while still bringing a “useable” set of feedback. Today, we will go over what the preview program is, why it is secret, and how to get into it.

    Some people seem to think that the Mournlands Preview Server is just : “some private test server”, but in truth, the Mournlands Preview Server exists to look at new content and systems in order to help make things more fun, balanced, and playable. The QA and Dev teams will occasionally be found in groups with the players on Mournlands. They go there not to test, but to learn more about the possible strategies in a new quest from the player’s perspective. Sure, bugs are found and fixed in the process, but the core purpose is not that, and they are not a requirement of the Mournlanders.

    The Mournlands Preview Server and its players are shrouded in secret in mystery for many reasons. One reason is to keep them from being pressured into revealing information before it is ready to be released. Another is to allow them to actually continue their DDO lives without the Mournlands program changing how the rest of the community views them. It would be difficult to look at someone who is marked as a Mournlander and not want to know what the future holds. So for the safety of their own entertainment, the Mournlanders are kept hidden.

    In addition, much of what finds its way onto Mournlands is not finished, still in development, and simply not ready to see the light of the world yet. As such, the Mournlands Preview Program has a gated access, which might be one of the most well known aspects of it. Operated by the QA department, this process exists in order to choose those who would give the sort of feedback that is desired for development. Applicants are reviewed with a variety of qualities in mind. Posting history, quality of application, infraction/ban history, need of player type, and referral are some of the many different ways that each applicant is reviewed. One of the highest priorities is previous posting history. Knowing what sort of feedback has been given before is a good indication of what feedback will be given in the future. However, don’t let a low posting count deter you from applying! Having a good explanation as to why you do not post often, or even at all, can and will be accepted just as much as a post count over 9000.

    In the end, having an opinion and a reason behind that opinion is the strongest thing that can be used to get access to the Mournlands Preview Program.

    So the next time you hear someone say that the Mournlands Preview Server is a myth… You can tell them the truth. Yes. It does exist but only the acceptance email will ever prove that fact and by then, it’s too late.

    The Link to how to apply to the preview program
    Last edited by 404error; 11-06-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Sarezar's Avatar
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    I know this is a difficult question to answer, but how much in percentage would you say development is influenced by 1) Mournalds feedback, 2) Lammania feedback, and 3) what Turbine wants to do?

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  3. #3
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    eh, it's pretty standard policy for stuff in extremely early phases. i've alpha-tested for a few games, where i've had to agree to NDAs and such (did it for family, otherwise probably wouldn't have bothered to apply). given how much the game changed from that early alpha as compared to release, i can understand why.

  4. #4
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    eh, it's pretty standard policy for stuff in extremely early phases. i've alpha-tested for a few games, where i've had to agree to NDAs and such (did it for family, otherwise probably wouldn't have bothered to apply). given how much the game changed from that early alpha as compared to release, i can understand why.
    standard? what??

    Name one other successful major mmo that does this.

    Pre-release its standard. 5/6 years down the road? ...

    and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle. TERAs is demolished already and they aren't planning a release tell mid-late 2012 for example. tons of closed beta videos all over youtube.
    Last edited by Shade; 11-05-2011 at 01:00 AM.

  5. #5
    Community Member altrocks's Avatar
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    Sounds cool, 404. I don't have the time for it. I barely have the time to actually play these days. But...

    What are the chances of doing a Mournlands-like test server, whose function is specifically to seek out bugs, exploits, etc, before they hit lama/live. I'm sure there are more methodical and technical minded players who would be interested in helping with such a thing that simply do not have a taste for the vagueries of abstract and subjective things like balance. Have them test out things when the engine or code is messed with to adjust or fix a problem with a focus on functionality.

    Game balance is important, of course, as is making sure the product that's coming out is fun to play. But neither of those matter when people are constantly frustrated because of things not working, bug reports going missing and Developers not hearing about well-known bugs until they happen to stumble upon it in a forum thread after a year of people talking about it. For instance:

    - Handwraps (I've seen "Handwraps now working..." in various forms from every update for the last year and they are still problematic)
    - Opportunist Feat not working with Sneak Attack (Relatively new to the Devs, but well known to players for the better part of a year now. It was made especially problematic with the recent changes to Raid boss fortification)
    -The sheer size of the known bugs list and the general trend for that list to grow instead of shrink.

    I think you guys do a great job with creating fun and new experiences for the game. I have no issues with that at all. In fact, I think the content put out over the last year has been spectacular. But when entire classes become unplayable or obsolete for weeks/months at a time because of a technical oversight that could have been caught early on by many of the dedicated players you have available, it makes it quite hard to enjoy the new content as intended.

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  6. #6
    Founder Nysrock's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time to let the player community know whats going on.


    I, for one, can see why you'd want to keep such things as low key as possible. I have seen way too many posts by people complaining about item descriptions and such on Lammania being wrong or screwed up and then complaining about the devs being too lazy to take the time to do them right. What always strikes me funny is that this is on a TEST server and, as such, isn't live yet.

    I like how you guys worry about content first and then polish everything as best you can before releasing live. Mournlords sounds like a logical step in that process to get creative insight from the testers without all the negative feedback.

    Keep up the good work and I can't wait to see what comes next.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle.
    The worst games released tend to keep their NDA's right up to release. The earlier a company drops their NDA, the better the game usually is.
    You ask why this is?
    Simple reason, bad publicity hurts sales/revenue. Alot of times these companies know their game is a pile of ****.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nysrock View Post
    Mournlords sounds like a logical step in that process to get creative insight from the testers without all the negative feedback.
    The most successful companies only care about negative feedback. sorry but this is true.
    Last edited by mystafyi; 11-05-2011 at 02:35 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    Turbine made Mournlands because the players in Lammania weren't
    being honest about their opinions or their opinions were too bias.

    It's been seen on multiple accounts that the preview server does
    not give a good enough idea of what to expect resistance against,
    one of the bigger examples would be the global cooldowns(which scared
    a good deal of the player base away from the game due to the
    inability to stare at consistently flickering lights, borderline epileptics
    who were previously able to cope with the light changes of the game).

    The reason selective membership is probably being activated is
    because they want people who aren't bias towards the game,
    people who notice changes, and people to reveal their gaming
    mind-set.

    It probably isn't that everyone on Lammania testing lacks
    the right mind-set, it's probably that most of them don't,
    and weeding through it is a financial setback.

    Oh and Turbine, +1
    Last edited by Yokido; 11-05-2011 at 03:46 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Vhlad's Avatar
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    Default Exclusive+NDA preview servers push competitive gamers away.

    Some players may believe that the secretive aspect of Mournlands does more harm than good. Ultimately, the question they want answered is: What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?

    In economics we call it a competitive market under asymmetric information. Mournlanders have the opportunity to know what is nerfed and what is buffed before the rest of the playerbase. They may have known: (a) to trade their rare desert scrolls early, (b) which items would be upgraded and how (i.e. to collect raid loot that they would have otherwise given away or traded), (c) to focus on one character early because TR was coming, (d) not to build a character around mithral full plate + evasion before the nerf, (e) things that I cannot talk about (tavern, necropolis, boots, runes, etc.), (f) Many more examples (i.e. trade WoPs before the nerf). Other players can add to the list if they wish, but you get the idea.

    How do you police it? What incentives or disincentives are there? Information from previous incarnations of Mournlands has been leaked before and has given players and guilds a tremendous advantage in the live game.

    As a competitive gamer who doesn't play DDO anymore but still checks up on the game, convince me that the secrecy and exclusivity behind Mournlands does not place non-mournlanders at a massive competitive disadvantage.

    You can't monitor their trading habits because they can post in the trade forums and use the auction house with a separate account. You can't police what information they disclose because they can use vent/skype/teamspeak, external forums, etc.

    If your only control mechanisms are screening, trust, and the threat of losing access, then good luck with that.
    Last edited by Vhlad; 11-05-2011 at 03:56 AM.
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  10. #10
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhlad View Post
    What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?
    In a game with barely a nod toward PvP play, what form of competition are you concerned that they have an advantage in? What harm would it do to the community if they were so prescient?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhlad View Post
    In economics we call it a competitive market under asymmetric information. Mournlanders have the opportunity to know what is nerfed and what is buffed before the rest of the playerbase.
    My understanding, purely from 404error's announcement and my own intuition, is that Mournlands would be for testing things more on the macro level, rather than the micro: crafting systems, quest mechanics, new classes and races. That Foogol's Barsplitter has had its stats changed doesn't really necessitate a secretive society of testers wailing on a training dummy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhlad View Post
    If your only control mechanisms are screening, trust, and the threat of losing access, then good luck with that.
    How long has the Mournlands programme been operational? They seem to have been doing pretty well so far, from what I haven't been able to discern.

    If, that is, Mournlands actually exists.

  11. #11
    Community Member Terebinthia's Avatar
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    My understanding of Mournlands (from what 404error has said, I'm not in the programme) is that it's more like a focus group than anything. I would hope that there would be some structured events there and encouragement / incentivisation for group play - I know it's hard to get groups together on Lama with I would imagine a much higher population - which is tiny, at least in the UK timezone.

    If it's a focus group which has the numbers and the opportunity to play together in ways that would be understandable to the general DDO community (for example, say they were playtesting druids, there would be sufficient people to, say solo cap / solo with a hireling, play in a zerging style TR team, play in a more "balanced" group in popular quests / even raids if possible) and it's a focus group that's actually listened to, it can only be a good thing.

    Personally I hope it's got a wide community of people, with different playstyles, not just a few forum rats / 24/7 gamers
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  12. #12
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Lammania = Mournlands.

    /rant on

    That's the best way to do it. As Maj posted a few days ago - you can't pay volunteers.
    Put beta releases on Lammania. Keep alpha for yourselves.

    Also, I don't think that QA is better at finding bugs than some ardent DDO players. That's simply because how you guys respond to the community rants. If someone says, "Sniper shot breaks stealth", and you don't fix it in 2-3 updates, you're doing something wrong. If QA didn't spot that as a bug, then you're doing even lousier job.

    How about the fact that many paths aren't done. They are right there - at the character creation screen and THIS game IS AN D&D MMORPG, which means that character building is the core of the game. So, if you have a 'cancer' at character creation for over 2 years, I don't think any Mournlands program will change anything.

    You guys just don't see many things which are needed. Who cares about any stuck spot behind some shroom in STK if character paths on the character creating screen are undone. My guess is that you can't prioritize what's important in this game. Sure, there will always be bugs and everything can't be fixed and new content must be created, but for gameplay crucial stuff that you turn your backs on - that ain't the right way.

    You know why Wow has such a large player base? One of the reasons is that their game is polished. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have bugs, just that they don't release broken stuff. You do! Even if they have some flaws in class design, they fix it as they do listen to community rants and they do play classes they design. You don't!

    Take cleric warpriest prestige. Does it exist? No! Is there an entry at character creation screen?! Yes! How does one build a warpriest cleric if path is all about selecting junk feats and there are no relevant enhancements to make it viable? I don't know!

    Also, writing 101 manuals for character customization is advanced stuff. That shows the problem to be even more obvious. If a new player wants to be a Warpriest of Syberis, then his spells and his melee damage should work for him as well as AC, if he's wearing heavy plate and shield. And for that, a correct feats must be taken automatically so he doesn't have to bother. And that automation is PATH. And PATH should be good and tested throughout the content from level 1-20. And that can be done on Lammania.

    If prestiges were promissed in 2008, why aren't they done by now? There's only one racial prestige, and that's elven AA. Is that because you can't balance it? Do you fear that game will be beaten to easily? Do you have to many variables to include in your number crunching models? What gives?!

    /rant off

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    Turbine made Mournlands because the players in Lammania weren't
    being honest about their opinions or their opinions were too bias.

    <snip>
    FYI, Mournlands has been around longer than Lammania.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    Having a good explanation as to why you do not post often, or even at all, can and will be accepted just as much as a post count over 9000.
    Over 9000 Post Factor !!!

    ZOMG !!!

  15. #15
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    Many players have applied to the Mournlands preview program, but none have ever said they were in the program. Many players say that it doesn’t exist on those facts alone. Well, I assure you that it does exist, but because Mournlanders past and present are not allowed to reveal who they are, it is difficult to prove.

    Many of them are guild members, forum friends, silent soloers or in-game idols, and they are encouraged to participate in both the live community and the Mournlands community. They do this so they do not lose touch with what brought them to Mournlands in the first place, while still bringing a “useable” set of feedback. Today, we will go over what the preview program is, why it is secret, and how to get into it.

    Some people seem to think that the Mournlands Preview Server is just : “some private test server”, but in truth, the Mournlands Preview Server exists to look at new content and systems in order to help make things more fun, balanced, and playable. The QA and Dev teams will occasionally be found in groups with the players on Mournlands. They go there not to test, but to learn more about the possible strategies in a new quest from the player’s perspective. Sure, bugs are found and fixed in the process, but the core purpose is not that, and they are not a requirement of the Mournlanders.

    The Mournlands Preview Server and its players are shrouded in secret in mystery for many reasons. One reason is to keep them from being pressured into revealing information before it is ready to be released. Another is to allow them to actually continue their DDO lives without the Mournlands program changing how the rest of the community views them. It would be difficult to look at someone who is marked as a Mournlander and not want to know what the future holds. So for the safety of their own entertainment, the Mournlanders are kept hidden.

    In addition, much of what finds its way onto Mournlands is not finished, still in development, and simply not ready to see the light of the world yet. As such, the Mournlands Preview Program has a gated access, which might be one of the most well known aspects of it. Operated by the QA department, this process exists in order to choose those who would give the sort of feedback that is desired for development. Applicants are reviewed with a variety of qualities in mind. Posting history, quality of application, infraction/ban history, need of player type, and referral are some of the many different ways that each applicant is reviewed. One of the highest priorities is previous posting history. Knowing what sort of feedback has been given before is a good indication of what feedback will be given in the future. However, don’t let a low posting count deter you from applying! Having a good explanation as to why you do not post often, or even at all, can and will be accepted just as much as a post count over 9000.

    In the end, having an opinion and a reason behind that opinion is the strongest thing that can be used to get access to the Mournlands Preview Program.

    So the next time you hear someone say that the Mournlands Preview Server is a myth… You can tell them the truth. Yes. It does exist but only the acceptance email will ever prove that fact and by then, it’s too late.
    I call BS on this. I don't care how good you "Screen" people, someone at some point in time WOULD have broken your NDA and revealed a screenshot or some tidbit of info. Its just what people do. The only way to keep a "beta" private like that is to not allow the players private access to anything, and require them to play at a physical location you control and then to search them before they leave your testing facility.

    So either your trolling just to be a ****** like most of us think the mournlands preview program is in the first place, a troll.

    or your only letting in people who live near your facility so you can control access to it, which would explain why we keep getting poorly balanced updates and nerfs on things that dont need nerfing. IE. You have TOO SMALL of a tester base WHO DONT REFLECT THE ACTUAL MAKEUP OF YOUR COMMUNITY OF PLAYERS.

    Seriously, apple cant even keep people from taking photos of their top secret in house projects and leaking them, and you expect us to believe that after roughly 2 years of its supposed existence, NO ONE HAS LEAKED ANY INFO ABOUT IT...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    The worst games released tend to keep their NDA's right up to release. The earlier a company drops their NDA, the better the game usually is.
    You ask why this is?
    Simple reason, bad publicity hurts sales/revenue. Alot of times these companies know their game is a pile of ****.

    The most successful companies only care about negative feedback. sorry but this is true.
    There is negative constructive feedback, Then there is raging for no reason other than the raging. I agree with the first, and I ignore the second, because it usually has nothing to do with the game, and is some emotional response to something else. There is less of the second on ML. Sometimes digging through that -although better lately-out here is soul sucking for a dev. We need Dev's happy and motivated, not bummed out and angry.

    Name one other successful major mmo that does this.
    -
    City of Heroes. WoW. I can name non-MMO's too- Valve for all their games.

    I disagree with Shade, ML has been very helpful. Until i can get the powers that be agreeing on a public test shard this is how it is.

    I don't care how good you "Screen" people, someone at some point in time WOULD have broken your NDA and revealed a screenshot or some tidbit of info. Its just what people do.
    Yes people have broken the NDA, and people have been punished. Look who our owners are now. The biggest owners of intellectual property on the planet. They take information leaks crazy serious. If you don't think you can keep a secret, don't apply.

    What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?
    Those people get kicked out.

    Also, I don't think that QA is better at finding bugs than some ardent DDO players. That's simply because how you guys respond to the community rants. If someone says, "Sniper shot breaks stealth", and you don't fix it in 2-3 updates, you're doing something wrong. If QA didn't spot that as a bug, then you're doing even lousier job.
    It is not that we don't know about it or 'spot' it, well, go read my blog. The why on bugs like this is all there, and I don't want to re-type it.

  17. #17
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddio42 View Post
    FYI, Mournlands has been around longer than Lammania.
    Then I correct myself, they currently -use- Mournlands because of Lammania's deficiencies.
    Still not quite sure if Mourn came first or after, but that's irrelevant.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    Some people seem to think that the Mournlands Preview Server is just : “some private test server”, but in truth, the Mournlands Preview Server exists to look at new content and systems in order to help make things more fun, balanced, and playable. The QA and Dev teams will occasionally be found in groups with the players on Mournlands. They go there not to test, but to learn more about the possible strategies in a new quest from the player’s perspective. Sure, bugs are found and fixed in the process, but the core purpose is not that, and they are not a requirement of the Mournlanders.
    So how often are they asked why they didn't use an alternative strategy, and what tools would be needed to make that a valid one?

  19. #19
    Community Member Muldamai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    standard? what??

    Name one other successful major mmo that does this.

    Pre-release its standard. 5/6 years down the road? ...

    and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle. TERAs is demolished already and they aren't planning a release tell mid-late 2012 for example. tons of closed beta videos all over youtube.
    As mentioned above, WoW, Rift, heck, virtually every MMO since 2008 has this. One case where it wasn't done right was Vanguard, full of fanbois (guilds looking for that advantage, never reporting exploits), and leaks, was released a stinking pile of unplayable goo (the release is another story, though).

    By the time a game is killing their NDAs, it is far beyond what is being referenced in this thread. You answer your own question by stating "tons of closed beta...", again far beyond what a ML program is.

    Lets just take, for example, the new WoW, expansion. What content you see there would be out of a ML level testing level, for the most part. The concepts, designs, and systems have been decided upon and are being worked on. Only if some grand fundamental flaw is found that everyone overlooked would any of the info released be modified.


    Mournlands testing would not be for everyone. It has to be material you love, you have to repeat processes ad nauseum in order to get them right, and the ability to be objective is paramount (not to mention communicating clearly).
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  20. #20
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    Then I correct myself, they currently -use- Mournlands because of Lammania's deficiencies.
    Still not quite sure if Mourn came first or after, but that's irrelevant.
    Mournlands has been around a long time. Before Lammania there was another preview server called Risia. Risia went out in an ultimate blaze of glory before F2P went live. (It was awesome and a darn good reason to have had the Risia client ready to go back then (not to mention you would get extra starting TP for playing there for use on Live as a bonus incentive.)
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