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  1. #261
    Community Member krackythehoodedone's Avatar
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    I think that the Renown system is ''work in progress''

    After all this is a totally new system and only now as the first few guilds reach the 100 mark can anyone look back and study the effects.

    I think it is safe to say that the bigger more family orientated guilds are the ones the system seems to be disadvantaging the most.

    The big guilds all got off to a flyer but they seem to be bottoming out in the mid seventies. The guilds where DDO family is more important than hard core raiding and renown.

    So from my perspective a tweak is required but not major surgery

  2. #262
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    People fail to understand the basic idea behind guild decay. It forces new player interaction. You'll see guilds with a massive number of members skyrocket up in guild level, then they suddenly hit "the wall." This is by design. It keeps the game from becoming dominated by 1 or 2 massive guilds and thereby excluding other players. People must funnel in and out of guilds and make new social contacts to continue to forge ahead and be successful in high end content. That's why all these once megaguilds quickly become "the few and the proud."

  3. #263
    The Motivator Karranor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splatterfart View Post
    People fail to understand the basic idea behind guild decay. It forces new player interaction. You'll see guilds with a massive number of members skyrocket up in guild level, then they suddenly hit "the wall." This is by design. It keeps the game from becoming dominated by 1 or 2 massive guilds and thereby excluding other players. People must funnel in and out of guilds and make new social contacts to continue to forge ahead and be successful in high end content. That's why all these once megaguilds quickly become "the few and the proud."
    That might be the idea behind guild decay but that is not how it has ended up working. There are a few "megaguilds" that are the high level guilds. If you are play X amount you get to stay in. They don't accept new people, they just pull from the other guilds. It's not about staying with your friends, keeping what you earned. It's about either swimming or drowning, you can't just float.

    This also shuts the door to guilds because it is quite possible to actually hurt your guild by taking in new players. They may not play enough. They may not take renown, especially new players to the game. They are going to take cash rewards over renown to get established. Plus if you take someone in and they suck, when you kick them it hurts your guild. So it is better, guild wise, to keep long term and active players in your guild. Otherwise, odds are the players are just going to hurt your guild.

    So why is should a system stay in place that hurts your guild simply for not logging on during the family vacation? While they are on tour? When they are having baby? Or the million other reasons that are out there.

    I would argue that the guild system as it stands now does quite the opposite from the proposed idea. It's a great idea, but not ideas actually work out. Even more reason to give the guild XP/renown/decay system an overhaul.
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  4. #264
    Community Member kormasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splatterfart View Post
    People fail to understand the basic idea behind guild decay. It forces new player interaction. You'll see guilds with a massive number of members skyrocket up in guild level, then they suddenly hit "the wall." This is by design. It keeps the game from becoming dominated by 1 or 2 massive guilds and thereby excluding other players. People must funnel in and out of guilds and make new social contacts to continue to forge ahead and be successful in high end content. That's why all these once megaguilds quickly become "the few and the proud."
    Doesn't funneling in and out of guilds hurt both guild levels and patron points earned? In that situation, I remember an earlier post that recommends guilds being formed of very select people who are dedicated to each other. I think that would be a better answer in support for the renown, but sadly removes the vast majority of players in the game, who may focus on family or friends or RL. The point being that decay--while beneficial to preventing stagnation or a separation of powers--is negatively impacting the vast majority of players.

    There will always be distinct separations between mega guilds and normal players. All we are really asking is that there is no decay removing that which was gained. Pretty simple idea.


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  5. #265
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kormasta View Post
    The point being that decay--while beneficial to preventing stagnation or a separation of powers--is negatively impacting the vast majority of players.
    I've seen a few of you say this here. Do you have any proof to back that statement up, or are you theory crafting from your own experiences?
    There seems to be a split in this thread, and most of the people whining about it are from your guild.
    Your guild =/= a vast majority of players.

    And why hasn't this thread died yet?
    .

  6. #266
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post

    And why hasn't this thread died yet?
    Because there are alot of players concerned about the renown system, to the point where they will go back and forth about it on a forum for weeks at a time.

    From a business perspective I can see why they created the system the way it is, but as a player, I dont see the comparison of the pros and cons in the current system coming out a net positive. There just needs to be a way to change it so that the change doesnt break it harder than it already is.

    Removing decay and doing nothing else gets rid of some evils, but introduces new evils into the mix.

    I already went over this in part, but here goes: The easy button to leveling a guild will be to mass invite, mass renown farm, then mass boot. What to do once a guild hits level 100 (or an acceptable high level)? Sell it of course. Why not? I can just level another. Hell people can level 3 or 4 at a time. Guilds will become another currency item alongside LDS, FRDS, and scrolls. Plat farmers will even sell em online.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #267
    Community Member Falco_Easts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krell View Post
    I agree with loss for kicking or leaving and no timed decay. The purpose of guilds is to build additional social bonds, which in general keep players in the game longer. The decay mechanic seems to go against that purpose by putting strains on guilds that keep playing players who don't play very often. I think a bigger penalty for kicking or leaving and no decay may actually strengthen guilds as there would be incentive to keep everyone instead of what has happened which is kicking long term guild members.

    I was in a founding guild for years before the guild renown mechanic started then didn't play for a couple months while I was involved in a new FPS game. I came back and found all my characters kicked which definitely weakened my ties to DDO as a whole. I think Turbine needs to reconsider what they are trying to accomplish with the decay mechanic compared to other options and how that aligns with the benefits of the guild system.
    Personally, I think they whole update of Rise of the Guilds had that affect, not just the renownn decay. Turbine were obviously trying to do as you say and enhance the social bonds but all of a sudden you had guilds springing up everywhere that had nothing to do with social bonds and everything to do with buffs and alters on ships.

    The rewards for guild should have been nothing more then fluff IMHO like guild uniforms, guild bank, mailbox/tavern/banker on ship etc... Anyone should have been able to see the mess adding buffs to guild levels was going to cause.
    Last edited by Falco_Easts; 11-30-2011 at 07:10 PM.
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  8. #268
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karranor View Post
    That might be the idea behind guild decay but that is not how it has ended up working. There are a few "megaguilds" that are the high level guilds. If you are play X amount you get to stay in. They don't accept new people, they just pull from the other guilds. It's not about staying with your friends, keeping what you earned. It's about either swimming or drowning, you can't just float.

    This also shuts the door to guilds because it is quite possible to actually hurt your guild by taking in new players. They may not play enough. They may not take renown, especially new players to the game. They are going to take cash rewards over renown to get established. Plus if you take someone in and they suck, when you kick them it hurts your guild. So it is better, guild wise, to keep long term and active players in your guild. Otherwise, odds are the players are just going to hurt your guild.

    So why is should a system stay in place that hurts your guild simply for not logging on during the family vacation? While they are on tour? When they are having baby? Or the million other reasons that are out there.

    I would argue that the guild system as it stands now does quite the opposite from the proposed idea. It's a great idea, but not ideas actually work out. Even more reason to give the guild XP/renown/decay system an overhaul.
    If Guilds/people are placing more value on an game mechanic in fantasy setting in an online MMO over people/friends/family, the problem is NOT with the system. The problem is that people have some serious priority issues.

    If you have good PEOPLE in your Guild and are having fun, what the hell does Guild Level matter? I would much rather be in a Guild with 50 good people and low renown level, then 100 questionable people at level 80. Have people forgot it is the people we game with that make the game fun and not the Guild level?

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  9. #269
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    What is wrong with everyone being able to be guild level 100? Everyone can be level 20 and everyone can have the same gear. So why can't everyone have the same guild level, given that they put the same amount of work into it?

    By saying that you make it clear that you don't understand the problem.

    The problem is that a casual player who spends 30 hours on DDO over a month gain less than a powergamer who spends 30 hours on DDO in a week.
    Ofcourse a powergamer who spent 100 hours should have gained more than a casual player who only played 30 hours. But given the same amount of hours spent, why shouldn't they have the same gain from it?
    If they could attain that without introducing all kinds of other problems, Im all for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    If this is such a great way to handle it, why doesn't more aspects of DDO work like this?
    Your "guild renown (as it is now) -vs- character leveling" analogy doesnt stand. Not only is it not an apples to apples comparison, its not even apples to oranges. Its like comparing apples to mulchers. It can turn into apples to apples however....if we split up how each mechanic works rather than have one lump mechanic.

    This is why I suggest SPLITTING UP guild XP and renown. Guild XP would be like character XP, where you can level and it doesnt decay. The guild can retain its level perminently. Renown would then be comparable to currency - like plat. It doesnt decay, but it gets spent on guild benefits.

    A guild who makes it to level 100 and then doesnt play anymore now has a ship with nothing on it, but they are still level 100. If they do log back in months later and play alot again they can farm enough renown to put the benefits they want up on the boat.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #270
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karranor View Post
    That might be the idea behind guild decay but that is not how it has ended up working. There are a few "megaguilds" that are the high level guilds. If you are play X amount you get to stay in. They don't accept new people, they just pull from the other guilds. It's not about staying with your friends, keeping what you earned. It's about either swimming or drowning, you can't just float.
    I'm calling shenanigans on this one. The last adventure-useful ship amenity can be bought for plat at guild level 62. At that level, it's 333 renown decay per additional player* per day. Assuming you grab Legendary Victories in favor of vendor trash, you'll do "your share" if you play 2-3 nights per week, or if you just log on once a week for a 6-8 hour spree.

    I'm not calling shenanigans just for theoretical reasons, though. I've seen in the game that what you've said is completely fictitious. My own guild is semi-casual. Almost everyone in the guild has taken time off from the game. We don't kick people just because it's been three months since their last login. Despite this, we've stabilized at level 70-- so our average play time is 63% higher than what we need to keep all the good amenities.

    I think my guild is at the high end of casual, but we're not the only ones with great ships. Most of the guilds that I've seen around for a while tend to be in the fifties or sixties, even if they are pretty casual.

    *: To maintain level 62 guild amenities, you need slightly more than 317.7*(active accounts + recent departures + 10) renown per day. That will make you bounce between 61 and 62.

    Hendrik covered another flaw in your attitude. Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    If Guilds/people are placing more value on an game mechanic in fantasy setting in an online MMO over people/friends/family, the problem is NOT with the system. The problem is that people have some serious priority issues.

    If you have good PEOPLE in your Guild and are having fun, what the hell does Guild Level matter? I would much rather be in a Guild with 50 good people and low renown level, then 100 questionable people at level 80. Have people forgot it is the people we game with that make the game fun and not the Guild level?
    Last edited by Gorbadoc; 12-01-2011 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Had to correct some math and add an example.

  11. #271
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Oh, and, regarding the idea that some guilds are getting into the eighties and nineties by having strict renown farming policies, so what? It gives 40-hour-per-week players something to aspire to. I don't want to deny them the ability to show off that they play the game way more than I do; they DO play the game way more than I do.

  12. #272
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbadoc View Post
    Oh, and, regarding the idea that some guilds are getting into the eighties and nineties by having strict renown farming policies, so what? It gives 40-hour-per-week players something to aspire to. I don't want to deny them the ability to show off that they play the game way more than I do; they DO play the game way more than I do.
    If people are changing playstyle to farm renown, it is the fault of the player/guild leader.

    Adding that kind of pressure to members is self defeating! Making members get X amount of renown a day is foolish, IMO. I do not want to login and know before I can logout for the day I MUST get X amount of renown. You start getting into areas where members are against members because some might not be able to get X amount a day. Screw that! I would much rather 'worry' about surviving a Elite LoB/MA then if guildmates are getting enough renown to cover decay.

    In my Guild, we have ZERO renown policy. None. And yet we have plateaued at 80, first on our server, and are fine with it. Sure, we would like to have the 85 Ship, but in no way are we going to change playstyle to get there. We are here for fun, here to login and go Quest with guildmates, and most are now considered friends/family. There is nothing in DDO or on Earth that would make anyone of us jeopardize those relationships.

    For us, the Ship and amenities are just a bonus to something we already had in the first place. A good group of like minded players that enjoy each other, enjoy the game we find ourselves playing, and there is nothing that will change that.

    People look at Ships as the purpose to guilds and there is nothing that is farther from the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
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  13. #273
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    I am against removing renown decay. I'm also against sorry sucky players having level 20 characters, but that's another thread...
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  14. #274
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    I am not sure whether this has been suggested as I have not read the entire thread, but what about keeping decay but preventing decay from resulting in a lost guild level?

    That would address the problem of events such as Mabar and CC that significantly reduce renown for weeks at a time. Guilds would still have to be very active to gain levels at higher guild levels because of daily decay. This could also promote activities such as a guild night where an entire guild is active, attempting to reach the next level, then allowing days of relative inactivity.

    I think this would still prevent casual guilds from obtaining levels above 60 or 70, allowing the power gaming guilds to differentiate themselves.

    On the downside, an potential exploit would be for a small group of power gamers to power level a guild to 100 then open it up to the masses.

    So a potential modification to my proposal would be to prevent level loss below a certain level. Maybe lv. 62 since that is the level that provides the +2 str shrine, the last significant casual questing buff? That should be sufficient to keep the masses happy. Also keeps up a nice plat drain as all those amenities need to be refreshed.

  15. #275
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Your "guild renown (as it is now) -vs- character leveling" analogy doesnt stand.
    Yes it does. Every argument for renown decay can be used for character exp decay. Think about it.

    I like your suggestion though.

  16. #276
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    Yes it does. Every argument for renown decay can be used for character exp decay. Think about it.

    I like your suggestion though.
    As a business decision Turbine has shown that while irritating, they can push renown decay on us, and while we will grumble about it, the quakes felt in CS are basically a 0.5 on the scale.

    Character xp decay would cause the third coming of Christ on these forums. Most of us couldnt even handle a death = XP debt system, and here we're discussing analogies where we could have a level 20 toon, go on vacation, and come back to a level 18 toon. The U5 melee nerf thread would look like an easy day at the office if they released something like that, heh.

    All joking aside, they really need to separate guild leveling XP from renown.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #277
    Community Member kormasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    I've seen a few of you say this here. Do you have any proof to back that statement up, or are you theory crafting from your own experiences?
    As for "proof", I used two base concepts for that. First, the people in this thread which stated they aren't necessarily concerned with it, and that their level is in low 20s. This seems to be at least level-wise in concurrence with most of the casual guilds in players, and since many players in a game are casual and few push for an "Uber Elite" sort of ranking and time sink, the casual number seems to be in play.

    The second element is tracking. We tracked our numbers at the beginning and end of the day and trended over the course of a month to see what the progression versus regression was. On guild night there was growth, as we actively pursued quests and raids in force and have the highest attendance. The rest of the week those that were playing were pushing to maintain a positive morning balance. After a month we grew by a nominal amount, about 150,000 renown XP. The average daily loss was about 20k. Decay removed 600,000 XP, so instead of gaining almost 700,000 XP, we gained 150,263. The range for level 62 is 11,916,400 to 12,502,350. We started November at 12,160,943 and are currently at 12,311,206.

    Without decay, a level at our pace will take us about a month. With decay our level will take us nearly four months. The difference is simply that we want to include our friends and family in our guild, and celebrate their RL obligations. Our goal is not to rush to level 100--honestly that is arbitrary. But rather that, with a 20k/day loss, we can be level 61 faster than level 63 all because of decay.

    We don't really mind it our growth is 5k a day with a mountain ahead of us. We are not rushing to level 100. We just would hate to come back from Christmas break, for example, and find our level, ship, and amenities gone on the pure foundation that we chose to spend Christmas with family instead of gaming.

    Some great ideas for replacing the decay imbedded in this thread. I always enjoy the little nuances each perspective gives.


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  18. #278
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kormasta View Post
    <all that>
    So, theory crafting from your own personal experiences, which have no bearing on nor relevance to "the vast majority of players."
    Got it.
    .

  19. #279
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    So, theory crafting from your own personal experiences, which have no bearing on nor relevance to "the vast majority of players."
    Got it.
    Worse yet, it's paranoid theory-crafting. I'm still sympathetic to the fact that his guild has been having drama over renown. The more I read, though, the more I'm convinced that this is a problem of perception and psychology, not a problem with the mechanics: If he and his guildies would relax and decide not to worry about renown, their airship would still be solidly equipped, and they could play the game however they liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by kormasta View Post
    But rather that, with a 20k/day loss, we can be level 61 faster than level 63 all because of decay.
    They've long since had access to the nine-crew ship, and it sounds like they'll stabilize at the point where they can buy the last adventure-useful amenity for plat.

    We just would hate to come back from Christmas break, for example, and find our level, ship, and amenities gone on the pure foundation that we chose to spend Christmas with family instead of gaming.
    They also (apparently) didn't read all the rules when evaluating their decay situation. You NEVER lose an airship, except when you buy a different airship.

    Not that it matters; it would take deliberate effort to drop below level 60, let alone drop to 55.

    Let's suppose Korm's guild has stabilized at the top of level 61/ bottom of level 62. Let's also suppose he has 90 active accounts in his guild, and every single one of them goes on vacation at the same time. Here's how long they'll be losing renown at level 61 before dropping to level 60:

    Modified guild size = 90+10 = 100
    Level modifier = 317.8 decay per member per day
    Daily decay = 100*317.8 = -31,780 renown per day
    Amount of renown from top of 61 to bottom of 61 = 11,349,050-11,916,399 = -567,349
    Time to get from top of 61 to bottom of 61 at the above decay rate = -576,349/-31,780
    If an entire 90-member, level 61/62 guild goes on vacation together, it will take the guild 18 days to reach level 60.

    Of course, decay is (roughly) proportional to number of active accounts in a guild, so more guildies = faster decay; fewer guildies = slower decay. That 18-days figure is already assuming a LOT of simultaneous vacationers. Ninety non-earners could be explained by event farming, but, 18 days is a long time for everyone to be caught up in an event.

    Still, suppose Korm's guild does it: they keep enough people away long enough to lose all of their level 61 renown. They still have to drop to level 54 before they have an airship above their guild level.
    • First, they need people to log back in. Losing level 61 took 18 days (still assuming 90 members); losing level 60 will take 25 days, because decay is slower at lower levels. Before that happens, the idle accounts will hit the 30 day mark and quit causing decay.
    • Second, they need those 90 members to keep logging in but not playing for almost half a year. Repeating the above math for levels 55-61 (inclusive), it turns out they need to be in free fall for 174 days before they hit level 54. That's with everyone popping in once a month. If half those members simply stay idle, it will take roughly twice as long.
    • Third, they can't have some dedicated players sticking around playing the game. If half the guild keeps playing as normal while the other half just logs in once a month to say "Hi", here's the breakdown:
      • To lose level 61, 37 days
      • To lose level 60, 86 days
      • To lose level 59, 101 days
      • To lose level 58, 123 days
      • To lose level 57, 157 days
      • To lose level 56, 223 days

      That's how long the guild spends at each level. After about two years (the sum of all those days), the guild stabilizes between levels 55 and 56.

    This bears repeating:
    If half of a 90-member, level 61/62 guild stops earning renown but keeps logging in (while the other half keeps playing as usual), it will take the guild 725* days (nearly two years) to drop to the border between levels 55 and 56. At this point, their level will again be stable.

    We can change this to make it semi-plausible: Suppose three fourths of the guild cuts back its play time to one-third. That will have the same effect mathematically as half the guild becoming dead weight. That's a huge shift in the guild's casualness: it's an overwhelming majority of the guild going from playing once or twice a week to playing just a couple times a month. The guild will have a different feel at that point regardless of whether its renown level changes.

    Of course, you just know some of the twice-per-week players are going to get antsy and go find other guilds. Hopefully before things come to a head, the guild's leaders will initiate a conversation about the direction the guild is taking; "Do we want to be more casual?" and "Should we organize more raids?" Decisions will be made, but it's not renown forcing the issue.

    *: The 725 figure doesn't round until the end, so it's different from the sum of the values as listed above it. Regarding my other assumptions on the day-count math, PM me if you're curious about anything or if you think I've made an error. As long as you think I'm right within a day or two, it's probably not worth posting in this thread, since the situation requires fudging plausible numbers for a couple of the inputs, and since my point depends only on orders of magnitude anyway (rather than precise numbers).

  20. #280
    Community Member HarveyMilk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbadoc View Post
    If half of a 90-member, level 61/62 guild stops earning renown but keeps logging in (while the other half keeps playing as usual), it will take the guild 725* days (nearly two years) to drop to the border between levels 55 and 56. At this point, their level will again be stable.
    [/color]
    The problem isn't 90-member guilds. The problem is guilds that are just over the small guild bonus, but with a majority of players that don't want to /gkick the less active friends of theirs.

    Here's the solution that will both prevent abuse (guild selling, which already happens) and fix the problem:

    1) Limit leadership changes. Allow guild leaders to promote new leaders only from officers who have been officers for a year or more.

    2) Limit de-leveling. Allow guilds that have stable membership rosters (no one leaving or joining) for a week, to maintain their level. Decay will still play in when trying to advance, but this gives guilds the ability to make concerted effort at times, then take a break and enjoy other aspects of the game.

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