# Thread: Time to Remove Guild Renown Decay

1. Originally Posted by Karranor
Here is a little math I did, using DOA as an example, to see how messed up the system can be for some.

We currently have a 20,000 Renown Decay.
Average Month is 30 days.
This means we lose 600,000 renown a month.
We have an average of 45 active members...

Regardless of playtime or whatever it still boils down to having to play X amount of time just to break even and not go backwards. You should never go backwards in a game just for not playing it. I can definitely understand not advancing, but going backwards, taking away what has already been earned is just lame!
Originally Posted by Calebro
Ummm.... no. It means that each member has to play an average of 3 hours every week.
Also, based on those numbers, the guild is level 63-64. So they are missing out on:
Altar of Devastation Contract
+4% XP Shrine Rental Contract*
Altar of Epic Rituals Contract
+5% XP Shrine Rental Contract*
Twelve Planescaller Contract
Xorian Navigator Contract: Xathrizopkrsis

Note that they DO have access to the 3% XP shrine contract. Also note that every item on the above list is a minor time-saver, nothing more and nothing less. Also also note that, even if someone really REALLY wants something from the above list, everything except the +5% XP shrine is available for Turbine Points at or before level 64.

The most compelling argument I've seen in this thread concerned guild drama: Someone's guild was having social problems, because person X felt guilty about holding back the guild, or person Y felt annoyed being shackled to a super-casual guild. The above numbers suggest this problem was, at least in Karranor's case, psychological.

There's still decay, though. What happens if five members of DOA suddenly stop playing? For thirty days, the guild has the same number of accounts in the decay rate formula, but it has only eight-ninths the rate of renown gain (assuming everyone else still plays the same amount).

To make a short story concise, if five members disappear, their equilibrium level temporarily drops from 63-64 down to 61-62.

Here's a question: Are you unable to renew contracts for which you're no longer eligible? Not that it matters much in this case: The only thing DOA would lose is their +3% XP shrine, and it sounds like they're casual enough to enjoy the leveling process, not try to tear through it at top speed.

2. Originally Posted by Aphion
Im mostly in agreement with the OP. Id be perfectly fine with renown loss on kicking a player or one leaving provided that player is active and having some decay for the recent departure but after that none. That is all fine by me but decay all the time is a crappy mechanic that needs to go.

Im also in favor of level locks but not at every level perhaps quarterly and not at 100. Something along these lines- Level locks: 25, 50, 75 - but no higher than 75. Just my opinion.
I agree with loss for kicking or leaving and no timed decay. The purpose of guilds is to build additional social bonds, which in general keep players in the game longer. The decay mechanic seems to go against that purpose by putting strains on guilds that keep playing players who don't play very often. I think a bigger penalty for kicking or leaving and no decay may actually strengthen guilds as there would be incentive to keep everyone instead of what has happened which is kicking long term guild members.

I was in a founding guild for years before the guild renown mechanic started then didn't play for a couple months while I was involved in a new FPS game. I came back and found all my characters kicked which definitely weakened my ties to DDO as a whole. I think Turbine needs to reconsider what they are trying to accomplish with the decay mechanic compared to other options and how that aligns with the benefits of the guild system.

3. If you join a small guild, guild decay is less of a factor and you get a larger renown bonus on trophies.

If you join a large guild, you have a much easier time getting into regular guild runs and filling groups with guildies vs pugs.

As far as I'm concerned being in a large guild and crying about decay is as moronic as being in a small guild and crying about pugs.

The reality of decay is if you are a casual player in a small guild you can pull enough renown to not only cover your decay, but make forward progress for your guild running just a few quests a week. I understand the whole not wanting to be dead weight, not wanting to lose friends by asking/booting dead weight from your guild, but nothing is stopping you from being friends with non-guildies, or simply just being happy with your guild that plateaus in the mid sixties since you get most of the possible buffs anyhow.

The coolest thing about guild level is it is like a status symbol. When you see a dude in a level 80+ guild running around you think to yourself, man, that guys gotta be a pimp. If they remove decay, its a matter of time before every player you see running around is going to be a member of a level 100 guild, at which point guild level because a meaningless, irrelevant game feature. I'd much rather see guilds stripped out of the game completely then that happen, so at least we could look back on the good ol days when guild level actually meant something.

4. Originally Posted by McFlay
The coolest thing about guild level is it is like a status symbol. When you see a dude in a level 80+ guild running around you think to yourself, man, that guys gotta be a pimp. If they remove decay, its a matter of time before every player you see running around is going to be a member of a level 100 guild, at which point guild level because a meaningless, irrelevant game feature. I'd much rather see guilds stripped out of the game completely then that happen, so at least we could look back on the good ol days when guild level actually meant something.

Umm.. That's already going to happen. It's almost inevitable, given how the system is setup. At some point later on, your yardmark of "wow, those guys are cool" is going to consist of only small/medium guilds. Because of the way decay works RIGHT NOW.

It takes them longer to get there(In some cases, a LOT longer), but they will get there. Because their break even point on members/decay is so much higher than a larger sized guild.

5. Originally Posted by McFlay
The reality of decay is if you are a casual player in a small guild you can pull enough renown to not only cover your decay, but make forward progress for your guild running just a few quests a week. I understand the whole not wanting to be dead weight, not wanting to lose friends by asking/booting dead weight from your guild, but nothing is stopping you from being friends with non-guildies, or simply just being happy with your guild that plateaus in the mid sixties since you get most of the possible buffs anyhow.
This statement is entirely correct, but you're still making (one of) the exact points the op was arguing against.

If you are a casual player in a small guild, you can make up for your generated renown decay. If you are a casual player in a large guild, you cannot. Right now, the only larger guilds that are level 80+(that I know of, your milage may vary), have been forced to remove or ask to leave casual players. They just can't afford the dead weight if they want to level their guild up.

6. Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth
If you are a casual player in a small guild, you can make up for your generated renown decay. If you are a casual player in a large guild, you cannot. Right now, the only larger guilds that are level 80+(that I know of, your milage may vary), have been forced to remove or ask to leave casual players. They just can't afford the dead weight if they want to level their guild up.
Awesome, so the system is clearly working then. If your a larger guild that doesn't cut any dead weight, then you end up one of those larger guilds that hover in the 60 range. Pick your poison...trim or don't trim...both have side effects.

There are four levels to the guild system. There are people that get no cookies, people that get 1 cookie a day, people that get 2 cookies a day, and people that get 3.

You get 0 cookies if you are not in a guild.

Why can't people just be happy they are getting 1 or 2 cookies? Its still better then none. Nobody gets punished by the guild system. A casual player with access to level 50 buffs is still miles ahead of a casual player with no guild buffs.

If they change the game so everyone always gets 3 cookies, then you just end up with people whining they want 4.

7. Originally Posted by McFlay
Awesome, so the system is clearly working then. If your a larger guild that doesn't cut any dead weight, then you end up one of those larger guilds that hover in the 60 range. Pick your poison...trim or don't trim...both have side effects.
Yes, but the entire point of all of these arguments is that people don't actually LIKE the way the system works. Rehashing the way the system works one way or the other is all that's being accomplished.

Personally, I think it's complete and utter ******** that I needed to remove people from my guild because they weren't "power gamers". It ****ed me off then, and it ****es me off today when I revisit it. However, the majority of the guild wanted to gain levels instead of lose them, so that's what we did to get to level 85 and grab the big boat.

Let me be clear. IT SUCKED, and I think it's a damn stupid way to set things up.

This is the point. It's the entire reason these threads keep coming up over and over and over again. The system (as it is) makes you exclude certain types of gaming characters if you want to make progress. No one is denying that. The reason this **** comes up over and over again, is that WE HATE IT.

8. Wahhh boohoo. Like I said, you cold have just taken your 60ish guild and been happy with it. If it bothered you so much to trim some fat from your guild, then you shouldn't have done it.

Is it that bad to have to make some choices in a game? Do you throw a hissy fit when you go grocery shopping and they ask you if you would prefer paper or plastic?

People that want it all in a game are never satisfied. You'll get a 100 guild, and then what? It won't be anything special because everyone will have it, and you'll just be on to whining about the next thing that seems like its out of your reach. I'm glad they managed to keep one thing in this game that within a few months of implementing everyone and their brother doesn't have.

9. Originally Posted by McFlay
If they remove decay, its a matter of time before every player you see running around is going to be a member of a level 100 guild, at which point guild level because a meaningless, irrelevant game feature.
Why do people keep comming back with that huge fallacy?

Character levels, past lifes, gear etc etc does not decay, but that doesn't make it "meaningless and irrelevant".

Originally Posted by McFlay
Pick your poison...trim or don't trim...both have side effects.
Yeah, that sounds like a good way to handle a social aspect of the game. Oh wait...

10. ## My suggestions

When renown first came out I decided that my guild would just take it in stride, not worry about the results at all, and just enjoy what we could get during the ride. Amazingly to me, we've actually pushed to a lot higher level than I had ever expected us to.

We've always been a "casual atmosphere" kind of guild, containing both the most casual player and one's that play 8+ hours a day. It's a good mix for us. We float between 30-45 active accounts depending on how many people recently logged in. We've never removed anyone for the sole purpose of "decay" and never intend to; and that works for us.

That said, I do understand and see where others are coming from. The ability to gain levels in a guild, especially for larger one's, while trying to keep the more "casual" players in guild is an issue; both for gaining levels and socially, which stands out strong in this thread.

Although turbine does not *require* you to boot your more casual players, the peer pressure to be able to push past higher levels and get the better goodies quite often takes precedence.

Suggestion to help the "casual" player issue

Create an ability to "flag" a players account in guild as a "casual". This could be done either through the leader of the guild actively choosing the flag, or something setup internally by turbine based on the number of hours a character plays in a single week.

I won't get into technical details on how the flag would be activated, but for sure there would have to be measures put into place to avoid abuse of it.

Once an account is flagged as a "casual", it won't be counted towards decay, BUT also will not be able to provide any renown gains to the guild either. Nothing else changes, they'll still have access to everything like any other guild member.

This would allow you to keep your "Friends" in guild, but still be able to do the "push" to higher levels despite they only play 1-2 times a month, or just pop in to say hello once in a while.

If later on they become more active, the flag can be turned off, once again making them count for both decay and gains.

Suggestion to help guild maintenance

Over time, your guild will gain characters that have not logged in for a really long time. The one thing I've never liked is that removing these people, even after MONTHS of not being active, still causes your guild losses when you remove them.

I think that after 90 days, a character should be able to be removed without any penalty at all. Let's face it, most cases, they're probably not coming back after that long. This would go a long way in allowing leaders of larger guilds to be able to better maintain their sizes without the fear of constant losses.

If a guild successor can take leadership within that period from the leader, because their absence is considered "too long", then why shouldn't any regular play also fall under the same time frame rules in reference to their renown and be able to be removed without any penalty at all.

11. Originally Posted by Aaxeyu
Why do people keep comming back with that huge fallacy?

Character levels, past lifes, gear etc etc does not decay, but that doesn't make it "meaningless and irrelevant".

Yeah, that sounds like a good way to handle a social aspect of the game. Oh wait...
TR actually is level decay. You go from 20, down to 1. Without it this game would have died a long time ago. Everyone would just get an account full of end game characters with no reason at all to ever play low level content again. It would suck for newbies and vets.

As far as the social aspect of the game...what is stopping you from putting those people on your friends list if your a power gamer that must have a high level guild and still being their friends? Simply make a private chat channel and invite them all to that instead of using guild chat. You also could have just approached it with the attitude Levonestral had that any level you got up to was cool but you enjoyed your guild as it was regardless of level. I can see it now...sir, would you like paper or plastic...and you have a mental breakdown.

If you gear the game entirely towards casual players you destroy it, and if you gear it entirely towards 8 hour a day power games, you totally destroy it. Renown decay is the perfect mixture of that. You can be casual in a 60ish guild, but no, thats not good enough for you, everyone should run around in a 100 guild becuase we're all special! What's next, its not fair that guy has eSoS and I don't you should give casual player higher spawn rates? Or how about casual players get a big xp bonus when they play so they can get as many tr's as the guy who spends 4 hours a day zerg leveling?

12. Originally Posted by McFlay
TR actually is level decay. You go from 20, down to 1. Without it this game would have died a long time ago. Everyone would just get an account full of end game characters with no reason at all to ever play low level content again. It would suck for newbies and vets.
TR is not level decay. It's character progression.
For most of this games existance, TR did not exist. And guess what, people still played low level content. So you are simply wrong.

Originally Posted by McFlay
As far as the social aspect of the game...what is stopping you from putting those people on your friends list if your a power gamer that must have a high level guild and still being their friends? Simply make a private chat channel and invite them all to that instead of using guild chat. You also could have just approached it with the attitude Levonestral had that any level you got up to was cool but you enjoyed your guild as it was regardless of level. I can see it now...sir, would you like paper or plastic...and you have a mental breakdown.
It's not "would you like paper or plastic bag", it's "would you like plague or cholera". I want neither, and I should not have to choose.

Originally Posted by McFlay
If you gear the game entirely towards casual players you destroy it, and if you gear it entirely towards 8 hour a day power games, you totally destroy it. Renown decay is the perfect mixture of that. You can be casual in a 60ish guild, but no, thats not good enough for you, everyone should run around in a 100 guild becuase we're all special!
What is wrong with everyone being able to be guild level 100? Everyone can be level 20 and everyone can have the same gear. So why can't everyone have the same guild level, given that they put the same amount of work into it?

Originally Posted by McFlay
What's next, its not fair that guy has eSoS and I don't you should give casual player higher spawn rates? Or how about casual players get a big xp bonus when they play so they can get as many tr's as the guy who spends 4 hours a day zerg leveling?
By saying that you make it clear that you don't understand the problem.

The problem is that a casual player who spends 30 hours on DDO over a month gain less than a powergamer who spends 30 hours on DDO in a week.
Ofcourse a powergamer who spent 100 hours should have gained more than a casual player who only played 30 hours. But given the same amount of hours spent, why shouldn't they have the same gain from it?

If this is such a great way to handle it, why doesn't more aspects of DDO work like this?

13. Rofl, what was the game like before tr? It was just so vibrant and full of people that they almost tanked and went free to play.

But hey, that aside, if you can't chose the plague or cholera as you like to phrase it, then don't join a guild?

As far as what's wrong with everyone having a 100 guild, because everyone can hit max level and get the same gear, your wrong there chief. Max level in this game isn't level 20 anymore, its level 20 with a completionist feat and 3x past lives in any class that gives a bonus relevant to your end build. That's probably a lower percentage of players then players in 100 guilds. Maxxed out gear...same thing. Its not very hard to get good gear, everyone has gs and the like, but not everyone has eardwellers, epic red dragon armor, a dozen uber weapons for different situation, etc.

Unless there are a lot more players that fit that requirement then I'm aware of, what your saying is everyone can have a character thats essentially halfway pimped out and be happy with it, yet you just can't be happy with your halfway pimped out guild for some reason.

As far as the casual gamer gaining less then the power gamer that plays 3x as much, they don't gain less per hour played. You pull the same amount of renown averaged out by the hour. I guess you just can't get it in your head that your not losing by being in a level 60 guild. Poor you, with access to a bunch of +2stat and 30 res buffs, your losing. If you can't stand the downside of a large guild of casuals, then get some of your casual budddies and join a small guild, and start a topic whining about how small guilds have to fill in with pugs to make raid group.

If you'd actually stop and think about it, the current system rewards small guilds, and active guilds. Why is it people act like decay hitting 800 man guilds with 300 inactives and 400 casuals is so terrible and destroying friendships? If theres that many people in your guild you probably can't even name 1/4 of them off the top of your head...they must all be such good friends. What its destroying is the ezbutton to everyone having maxed guilds, and I'm glad for that.

14. Originally Posted by McFlay
Rofl, what was the game like before tr? It was just so vibrant and full of people that they almost tanked and went free to play.
Yeah, because TR alone saved the game

Originally Posted by McFlay
But hey, that aside, if you can't chose the plague or cholera as you like to phrase it, then don't join a guild?
Don't join a guild? So now we have "plague, cholera or cancer", what a great and interesting choice. Adds so much fun to the game!

Originally Posted by McFlay
As far as what's wrong with everyone having a 100 guild, because everyone can hit max level and get the same gear, your wrong there chief. Max level in this game isn't level 20 anymore, its level 20 with a completionist feat and 3x past lives in any class that gives a bonus relevant to your end build. That's probably a lower percentage of players then players in 100 guilds. Maxxed out gear...same thing. Its not very hard to get good gear, everyone has gs and the like, but not everyone has eardwellers, epic red dragon armor, a dozen uber weapons for different situation, etc.
You are completely missing the point. I suggest you reread my last post until you really understand the problem I (and others) are having with renown decay and how it is different from character levels and gear.

Also, if guild level 100 would be too easy to achive that is a separate problem.

Originally Posted by McFlay
As far as the casual gamer gaining less then the power gamer that plays 3x as much, they don't gain less per hour played. You pull the same amount of renown averaged out by the hour.
Yes, but when you factor in the decay the one who plays over a shorter period of time gains more.

15. Nope, I'm pretty sure I understand your point. It goes something liek...

I WANT EVERYTHING AND WILL QQ IF I DON'T GET IT.

I mean seriously now...being in a level 60 guild that plateaus...is like the plague? You must think very highly of your guildmates.

Guild decay is no different then leveling or gear.

Guild decay essentially makes guild leveling and endless grind.

TR'ing makes leveling a near limitless grind.(if you've taken every tr that could help your end build your probably .0001% of the ddo population)

Introduction of new gear each patch makes collecting gear a limitless grind.

How am I failing to see the big picture here? It's an mmo...the more reasons you have to get on and play every day the better. Power gamers who play more are going to have advantages, every rpgish online game has always had this. I don't know about you but if I wanted a 0 grind game where you never achieve anything I'd go play a first person shooter.

16. Originally Posted by McFlay
Nope, I'm pretty sure I understand your point. It goes something liek...

I WANT EVERYTHING AND WILL QQ IF I DON'T GET IT.
Nope.

Ok, you are not even capable of understanding the issue. Seems pointless to keep discussing with you.

17. Originally Posted by vampiregoat69
The decay is so bad that 99% of guilds refuse to let anyone in because they have NO idea if that person is going to help the guild or cause more decay. They figure WHY bother to recruit more when we have so much decay it will only be cause for alarm.
Why would you want to join a guild that looks at you as a number not a player anyway?

Originally Posted by Karranor
The only reason we have hit the "cap" is because we are nice enough not to boot players that don't play 10 hours a week or more. Why should that then cap us? Should we be "rewarded" by booting out someone who is serving in Afghanistan and can only play once every couple of weeks? Should we be "rewarded" by booting someone who is in the hospital? Should we be "rewarded" by booting a college student that is studying for finals? Absolutely not.
It matters not why you have hit the cap, just that you have it it.
Why should I be penalised at work for not going the extra yard because I have a sick wife to look after.
Why can't i be good at sport because I have kids and don't have the time to train properly.
Why can't I have that relationship because I have to leave the country for work for months at an end.

You can't have everything in life. It doesn't matter the reason why. Accept the fact. You either want to have a guild with your friends or you want to screw your friends over and go for guild levels.

Originally Posted by Karranor
The base guild renown mechanic should not, in any way, punish a guild and its players for playing the game. Whether they are playing for 2 hours a month or 20 hours a day.
It doesn't. It rewards you quite well with various buffs. You just have to work to keep those buffs.

18. "It doesn't. It rewards you quite well with various buffs. You just have to work to keep those buffs."

BLASPHEMY FALCO

Who do you think you are suggesting that something in this game actually require continuous effort to acquire and maintain?

Everything should just be given to you, it doesnt matter if you play 23 hours a day or 23 minutes a month. We should all have the same!

I've been in my guild for over a year now and its level 42. IT IS NOT FAIR. The dev's need to mod it to level 100 and freeze decay on it to make things fair. I mean, I should have been at 100 by now, but I have work, and school, and quit for 6 months...but still that's not the point. THERE IS SIMPLY NO REASON WHY I SHOULD NOT HAVE A LEVEL 100 GUILD.

19. Maybe we could have a new system that instead of a decay we could have a drag. Like, for every renown gain we get only a share of it will be added to the guild. Or even have other ways of get renown, other than just looting or getting rewards. Maybe after lvl 20 some percent XP should go 2 the guild. Maybe even guild quests that we'd run and get renown instead of XP.

20. Originally Posted by McFlay
Nope, I'm pretty sure I understand your point. It goes something liek...

I WANT EVERYTHING AND WILL QQ IF I DON'T GET IT.

I mean seriously now...being in a level 60 guild that plateaus...is like the plague? You must think very highly of your guildmates.

Guild decay is no different then leveling or gear.

Guild decay essentially makes guild leveling and endless grind.

TR'ing makes leveling a near limitless grind.(if you've taken every tr that could help your end build your probably .0001% of the ddo population)

Introduction of new gear each patch makes collecting gear a limitless grind.

How am I failing to see the big picture here? It's an mmo...the more reasons you have to get on and play every day the better. Power gamers who play more are going to have advantages, every rpgish online game has always had this. I don't know about you but if I wanted a 0 grind game where you never achieve anything I'd go play a first person shooter.
It's the difference between wanting an experience in the game and wanting a thing in the game.

Realistically, renown decay can't prevent you from experiencing all the game's content. Even if ship buffs were needed to run the hardest content in the game, those quests already require enough fancy gear that the people running them will tend to be in level 60+ guilds, just by virtue of how often they play to have that quality of gear.

At lower levels, the experiential value of buffs is even more nebulous. With or without ship buffs, I'll run The Pit while leveling a character. Maybe I do it one level sooner with buffs, but my experience with the quest is unchanged*.

Some people are focused on the thing, though. Translating numbers on a character sheet into game experience (both the experience of earning the buffs, and the experience of using the buffs) will inevitably have mixed results, depending on just how focused a person is on the numbers themselves.

*: Okay, slight difference of experience: With +30 fire resistance, I'll stand in the lava, just to be silly. Without buffs, I'll save the +20 resist pot and just jump across the rocks.

#### Posting Permissions

• You may not post new threads
• You may not post replies
• You may not post attachments
• You may not edit your posts
•

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.