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  1. #221
    Community Member kormasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karranor View Post
    It seems like the social aspect of DDO would/could put the kabosh on this just by hearing the rep of the guild. You'd be blacklisted and shunned. Plus those poor saps that got booted can just pound another guild up, yes? Also, what is the point of kicking em all if there isn't any decay whether they log or not?
    Not that I would think it would solve all things, but I would be interested in a system that promotes rep from other players too. If a guild power games and hits level 100, but in doing so, pretty much kicks all the players in the face climbing up, what good is "Renown" in Stormreach? Many forums have rep meters--could something like this impact the game? Even if it isn't an end-all solution or only impacts a part of something, integrating a true social faction with other players would be pretty cool.

    Something that takes purchasing from the DDO Store, so as to try and avoid exploit. Promote inter-guild and inter-player support through an interactive social system.

    Wouldn't that be somewhat more encouraging to play and interact?


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  2. #222
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    The compelling complaints have been from the people whose guilds are actually suffering socially under the current renown system. An ad hoc solution may be in order:

    Give guilds the option of switching to a "Casual Mode" renown growth/decay structure. Under this mode, the effects of taking two weeks off would be less severe. To keep more active guilds from using this mode, the math should work out so that an active guild will level much faster in "Regular Mode". To keep a semblance of fairness to the guilds who work tirelessly for their renown, the math should effectively prevent "Casual Mode" guilds from leveling past a certain point.

    To make a long story short, if your guild is in Casual Mode, then you'll level slower, and you won't be able to reach the upper levels of guild renown, but your ultra-casual play style won't hurt the guild's renown level.

    I have a rough idea for one way the computations might work. Before I talk math, though, I'd like to know: Would something like this fix the social problems people are reporting?

  3. #223
    The Motivator Karranor's Avatar
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    That could be worth looking at further.

    However, I still don't understand why casual guilds and players should not be able to level up a guild completely. Why is a casual guild undeserving of reaching 100? Even if it takes 10 years to get there compared to another guilds 6 months.
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  4. #224
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    agree.
    There is no reason for guild decay or to lose renown when someone leaves.

    I also do not see why all the renown you earn as a player does not mean anything other than for the guild...and upon leaving it is all gone and you are a nobody with no renown.

    as a very casual player I will not join a guild since it would just hurt them renown wise.

    and that makes my play not as fun.

    So many guilds drop dead weight after a few months...some players come back 6 months or longer after being away.....and find themselves with zero renown...and no guild.

    kinda lame.
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  5. #225
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWizard View Post
    There is no reason for guild decay or to lose renown when someone leaves.
    You are mistaken.

    Take out guild decay and renown loss on kick and you end up with every guild mass inviting everyone they can until they fill up the guild ranks. Why? Because with no decay, the more people you have the faster you level, regardless of the quality of the player.

    Second, you end up with these guilds kicking anyone who is inactive for a short period of time so as to replace them with better renown earners. You think casuals have it hard now? Take away guild decay and they won't last longer than 2 weeks in any guild.

    Third, once the guild reaches their desired level (probably 100), the guild leader kicks everyone except their friends. With no loss on kick, the guild happily sits at 100, inviting the priveleged few the guild leader likes. The rest of the peasants that got the guild to where it's at are pushed out.

    I dare you (or anyone) to dispute this with a straight face, considering this is EXACTLY what happened when guild levels first were introduced. Guilds which did the above were leagues ahead of "real" guilds.

    Now, which system do you think will better treat your average casual player?
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  6. #226
    Community Member Aphion's Avatar
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    Im mostly in agreement with the OP. Id be perfectly fine with renown loss on kicking a player or one leaving provided that player is active and having some decay for the recent departure but after that none. That is all fine by me but decay all the time is a crappy mechanic that needs to go.

    Im also in favor of level locks but not at every level perhaps quarterly and not at 100. Something along these lines- Level locks: 25, 50, 75 - but no higher than 75. Just my opinion.
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  7. #227
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    As co-leader of a large guild we have faced many of these issues. We had to remove people after 1 month simply because the number of people wanting to join our guild meant we were constantly close to the cap of 1000 toons.

    We had a huge amount of decay every day, compounded by the loss of 25% of the renown for every toon we removed and the added 2 weeks of decay for every account that was removed. We were bouncing between 65 and 66 for months and the morale of the guild members was severely affected by this. The officers were also getting frustrated with the comments every time the guild level decreased.

    We decided we needed to reduce the size of the guild so we could reduce the daily decay.

    We made the choice to freeze recruitment, allowing only real life family, friends and alts of existing members. Our numbers are back to around 800 and our decay has decreased significantly. Since then we have researched how decay works and realised that removing inactives was hurting our renown a lot. We no longer remove inactives.

    Our renown has increased a lot due to these changes, however being hit with 2 events in a row has severely impacted on our progress. I would really like to see renown introduced into the events to counteract this hit that is taken, especially by large guilds. Either that or a suspension of decay during the events. Last year's Mabar event saw us lose 2 whole guild levels and it was the same with Crystal Cove earlier this year. This time around we had much less impact due to the fact that we'd stopped removing inactives but also our daily decay has been reduced. We still lost almost a whole level with each event.

    I would like to point out here that we are a large casual guild, based on having good people to group with. All our new recruits were interviewed by officers and accepted into the guild based on their personality rather than how often they play or how much renown they could bring to the guild. We have always valued the social side more than guild level. Having said that, the daily bounce between levels was very demoralising. No-one seems to care too much about not gaining a level, but the decreasing level was awful. Also, it made people outside the guild comment and ask why we kept going up and down every day. It was annoying everyone.

    We have always been here to help people learn the game and it was a tough decision for us to no longer welcome new players into the guild unless they already knew someone in the guild but I guess as guilds mature they need to change with the needs of the members.

    These decisions were made partly due to renown and its importance to our members, but also because as a large guild the number of people who wanted to join us was simply overwhelming and as officers we would often spend hours every day interviewing people, even if those interviews were brief. It was a very stressful situation for us, after all we just want to play the game too.

    So in summary, I understand the need for renown decay but I do think it needs tweaking. Most importantly it needs to be included in events (not just heroic deeds for 500 motes either, that was too expensive for 50 guild renown) and more recently in challenges. There are small amounts of renown in the challenges but I've noticed a drop in renown earnings since U12 and I believe it has a lot to do with the number of active players spending time farming challenges.
    Last edited by Arwitch; 11-18-2011 at 06:42 AM.

  8. #228
    The Motivator Karranor's Avatar
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    This is definitely a problem as well with decay. With it you have to make decision to shaft the guild, which can actually de-level your guild, or play in a short term event. So even if you are playing 23.876 hours a day, if it is in an event your guild is crashing.

    If guild decay was turned off. Then the guild might not level as fast, but wouldn't be hurt because people were playing in the special events.

    Now even the challenges cause renown to drop. Ya there is the occasionally kill renown but you get nothing like you would in a normal quest with renown dropping in chests and for end rewards.
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  9. #229
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arwitch View Post
    ...We made the choice to freeze recruitment, allowing only real life family, friends and alts of existing members. Our numbers are back to around 800 and our decay has decreased significantly. Since then we have researched how decay works and realised that removing inactives was hurting our renown a lot. We no longer remove inactives...
    This is a well-written post generally, and I don't mean to downplay any of it by focusing on this one part. (Fun fact: when there's an ellipsis at the beginning or end of a quotation, it emphasizes that what came before or after the quoted portion is important and relevant. Knowing is half the battle!)

    Angst over renown shrank once people bothered to learn how the system actually worked. This fact is telling: I suspect much of the frustration we've seen has come from people's ignorance.

    I'm not sure what we should be doing about it. A big ol' public service announcement about renown by Turbine might help, but it would also draw attention to the fact that they weren't fixing the actual shortcomings of the renown system.

    Implementing some form of "Casual Mode" for guilds might make a big difference. It would force guild leaders to make an active decision about guild mode, which would hopefully involve them researching how renown actually works.

    Incidentally, I also think it's telling that Arwitch's guild is doing better now that it recruits based on personality, not just activity.

  10. #230
    Community Member aberent's Avatar
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    Being a GM of a small guild, I have no problem with the guild renown system, with the following exception.

    I have over 50 members that have not logged into the game for more than 2 months, I would like to remove them but by doing so it would promote them to active members and count towards renown loss, on top of that I will also loose a % of their earned renown.

    I would propose to change the current system to allow for penalty free removal of inactive members (based on their last login date)

  11. #231
    Community Member Aphion's Avatar
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    The guild I am a part of is lvl 44 with 9 accounts in it and is nothing but friends. We have been friends almost since the game went live- so 5+ years. Some are more active than others and thats more because of real life commitments than anything. We have jobs and families to attend to that are more important. We dont all always play at the same time of day but 3/4 of the things we do, we do together. We quest, we raid, we chat, and we level together. Guild levels dont instantly come to us nor do we expect them to. We are fine being small and personable and we've known the formula since it was worked out. Were not gonna kick our friends no matter thier level of activity and any system that forces us to make such a choice is both haphazard and needless. It should promote comraderie, advancement, activity and being like-minded.

    Rewarding active play is fine and perfectly reasonable but that isnt whats happening. Decay is penalizing inactivity which is the opposite. Sure you could say once they are considered inactive there isnt a penalty anymore for that individual account but decay goes on either way based on the # of accounts you have that are active. We understand why we have renown loss on someone leaving and that it is here to curb mass invites to attain more guild levels and then kicking once said guild has reached it. Then you are also penalized more renown for regular decay plus the decay from a recent departure no matter if they leave on good or bad terms. If you need to restructure your guild or have no choice but to remove someone that doesnt play nice with the rest your guild is penalized. In those cases the system is tripledipping into the renown you gain. A penalty is not the way to go in my opinion unless based on doing something wrong or incorrect.

    Im sure we could come up with a better way to accomplish the same thing without the system we have now but how to do that and get our points across I cant answer that. It is important to see others viewpoints or opinions on things to gain insight from others for how we could do something better or some quirk in the system that maybe easily missed.
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  12. #232
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Everything else aside, this:
    "We should not be penalized for having real life commitments. The game should fit into our lives, our online friends welcoming us in to play, regardless of our level of time commitment."
    is a cardinal consideration for any MMO. As MMOs have grown, this is a consideration that is often less and less attended to. That's fair, so long as that is a direction the developers of the game in question want to take.

    For a game of 'bite-size adventures' (and yes, even 6 hour adventures in which you crash, burn, fail, and declare your hatred for the game still count as bite-size; There are no over-arching obligations in the game, no ongoing investments, no threat of being attacked while offline, no real reason to have to log in regularly.. except..) the inclusion of guild decay of any notable magnitude in the form that it is now DOES seem off the usual dynamic- and in consideration, is unnecessary for any element of balance. So there is no REASON for it, other than developer intent.

    And as such, that makes threads like this one worth the noting.

  13. #233
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Post Guild decay should be fixed

    On Lam made a live Dev event and they leveled my guild to 100 with just 2 active accounts my decay is nearing the 2 mil mark. They gave me so much renown the guild will not loose level before the next server wipe. Yes they need to do something about the guild decay formula. They should not get rid of it is my thought just scale it back a bit. On the regular servers I run a guild of like 25 active players and 25+10= 35 * 317.773400 at level 61 is not bad 11,122 a day now next level it goes to 11,678 a day at 75 try over 25,839 a day 85 its like over 51,000 a day and 100 it would be 118125 a day which is a bit much.

  14. #234
    Community Member Talon_Oakenleaf's Avatar
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    Being the leader of a large guild i would also like to see some changes. First and foremost there should be a "negative strike" for the odd time you get a player who harrasses others. We just had two and they volunteered to leave. The unfortunate part is the guild took a decy hit because of this, yes it would have been worse if i expelled them. Turbine should recognize all of our issues and allow us more control over our guilds. the ability to expel someone from the guild with a renown hit is just one of the things that should already be in place.

  15. #235
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    For a game of 'bite-size adventures' (and yes, even 6 hour adventures in which you crash, burn, fail, and declare your hatred for the game still count as bite-size; There are no over-arching obligations in the game, no ongoing investments, no threat of being attacked while offline, no real reason to have to log in regularly.. except..) the inclusion of guild decay of any notable magnitude in the form that it is now DOES seem off the usual dynamic- and in consideration, is unnecessary for any element of balance. So there is no REASON for it, other than developer intent.
    You see a problem with renown decay (white text). This does NOT imply that decay is unreasonable (yellow text). A thing can have numerous reasons in its favor and still have problems.

    As for renown decay having reasons based on "developer intent", duh? Developer intent is to make the game fun, so if decay is satisfying its intended reasons for existence, that's a good thing. The problem is the unintended consequences of the decay system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Oakenleaf View Post
    Being the leader of a large guild i would also like to see some changes. First and foremost there should be a "negative strike" for the odd time you get a player who harrasses others. We just had two and they volunteered to leave. The unfortunate part is the guild took a decy hit because of this, yes it would have been worse if i expelled them. Turbine should recognize all of our issues and allow us more control over our guilds. the ability to expel someone from the guild with a renown hit is just one of the things that should already be in place.
    My guild has that problem much less frequently than certain other high-level guilds. What you're suggesting means that we wouldn't be rewarded for our strong camaraderie.

    This isn't a trivial thing: My guild has slowly overtaken some of the guilds that based recruitment policy around renown. Membership stability has played a huge part in that. If we do goof with an invite, we live with the consequences.

  16. #236
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    Default What needs to be fixed

    ...is the sense of entitlement or elitism that some guilds or Players seem to have. The only problem I have with the the guild system is that an unfriendly atmosphere has been created in the game. It seems to just he getting worse. The phenomenon is that weaker players (the guys that won't run anything without ship buffs first) are using the my.ddo system and guild renown in a misguided attempt to figure out which players are the most likely to drag their otherwise worthless selves through high level content. Part of me thinks that renown decay should be doubled or tripled. Another part thinks that renown and ship buffs should both be tossed as a failed experiment. What I know for sure is that the community was better 4 to 5 yrs ago. Now the economy is crazy, the loot is mOnty-haul, people are nastier and less open-minded, and the content is discouraging creative character building. To sum it up, the game us less fun.
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  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by aberent View Post
    Being a GM of a small guild, I have no problem with the guild renown system, with the following exception.

    I have over 50 members that have not logged into the game for more than 2 months, I would like to remove them but by doing so it would promote them to active members and count towards renown loss, on top of that I will also loose a % of their earned renown.

    I would propose to change the current system to allow for penalty free removal of inactive members (based on their last login date)
    SMALL guild? 50 inactive members ? How many active? I must not have the same understanding of small as you. What foes turbine consider small?
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  18. #238
    Community Member spencer64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonprophet View Post
    What I know for sure is that the community was better 4 to 5 yrs ago. Now the economy is crazy, the loot is mOnty-haul, people are nastier and less open-minded, and the content is discouraging creative character building. To sum it up, the game us less fun.
    While I do not agree with dbl or trip the renown....I do agree with what you said at the end.....it was more fun back in the day, before the super-grind mentality.
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  19. #239
    The Motivator Karranor's Avatar
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    Unhappy Guild renown calcs are depressing...

    Here is a little math I did, using DOA as an example, to see how messed up the system can be for some.

    We currently have a 20,000 Renown Decay.
    Average Month is 30 days.
    This means we lose 600,000 renown a month.
    We have an average of 45 active members.
    That means that each member needs to earn 13,334 Renown a month.
    This means that each member needs to earn 445 Renown a day.

    445 Renown a day, that doesn't seem like much if you are one of the very few lucky players that can actually play every day. But to those that can't, it stacks up quick.

    So that means the each member of DOA needs to play 2 hours a day every day or so and take the renown rewards they get. Why should that be required? This is all so we can hang out and be in a guild with friends...

    Then all you have to do is start going backwards through the calculations to see that my friend that can only log in once every three weeks is going to have to earn about 8800 renown in the couple hours he can play.To which he will run a quest or two tops, since he is saying hi and chatting it up with all of his other friends. So he falls short 8000 renown which is going to have to be made up by someone else, which is unfair.

    Then bad feelings are stirred up because other members see some members "not putting in the time" and they see their own work taken away because another guild member is not hitting the 2 hours a day/500 renown quota.

    /sigh

    Regardless of playtime or whatever it still boils down to having to play X amount of time just to break even and not go backwards. You should never go backwards in a game just for not playing it. I can definitely understand not advancing, but going backwards, taking away what has already been earned is just lame!
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  20. #240
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karranor View Post
    445 Renown a day, that doesn't seem like much if you are one of the very few lucky players that can actually play every day. But to those that can't, it stacks up quick.

    So that means the each member of DOA needs to play 2 hours a day every day or so and take the renown rewards they get.
    Ummm.... no. It means that each member has to play an average of 3 hours every week. Heck, 15 minutes is often enough to grab 500 renown, so I have no idea where your 2 hours per day comes into play.
    Complain to me when you actually start losing some renown. 20k per day is NOTHING!
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