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  1. #21
    Community Member Velexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    All we ever see? You would have to know PD play to make a statement like that. But obviously you don't. /shrug
    Meant to say "about all" by the way, and I do know PD play, very very well thank you very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat: This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard leaves. "Game over man, game over! Now what the **** are we supposed to do?"

  2. #22
    Community Member Velexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalfs_Ghost View Post
    and to add insult to injury repair spells are considered spontaneous casting so they take up a spell slot no matter what.
    Psst, they give you a free spell slot when you take it. Honest =)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat: This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard leaves. "Game over man, game over! Now what the **** are we supposed to do?"

  3. #23

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    Sublime has run the Shroud and Inspired Quarter. The Core is completing Vale quests, and has been running quests over level 12 for about a year. And Mortal Voyage was running Orchard quests over 3 years ago. So you are clearly mistaken.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    Meant to say "about all" by the way, and I do know PD play, very very well thank you very much.
    Just because you haven't gotten a toon above low levels in PD doesn't mean no one else has. ;P

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    Just saying, they are only crazy powerful at low levels. Granted, that's all that PD'ers ever see, but they level out at about level 10+

    Additionally, disarming traps is freaking scary when you don't have Improved Evasion, or even just Evasion. I recently did Haywire's Foundry on Elite.. and going up the spiral staircase was harrowing. One hit, and I would be dead... and let me be the first to tell you, the major weakness of an Artificer is their saving throws.

    Also, grenading cure serious potions is not cheap, and it's not fast. I have died while spamming that heal button hoping to get it off in time.
    Check through the other threads, Extreme Explorers has several level 20's, and have done some shroud runs

  6. #26
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    My artificer is quite powerful, its currently my 5th life and I am enjoying it, but even at low levels it is not the most powerful build I have ever played.

    My last life, paladin, was a take on the divine phoenix build on the forums here, and at low levels it was high DPS, could do traps all the way to at least level 8, could do locks all through the game, and was extremely tough to kill. By mid levels, the DPS had normalized to being about standard for the level, and I could no longer do traps, but by level 11 I was almost literally immortal, a single conc op item restored more SP than I could ever use healing.

    I was able to solo the undead beholder on elite in GoP of Necro 4, fully scaled to a 6 man party, after my entire party had been wiped by him before I had even finished touching the ground, and it wasnt even difficult.

    Whether an artificer is overpowered depends on your definition of overpowered, however it is FAR from the MOST overpowered builds out there, and you would basically have to nerf all classes to deal with some of those builds.

    Also, as far as saying low level is 70% of the content, I would say that is completely wrong.

    Sure, 70% of the quests in the game may be low level, but the amount of time any player spends in those levels, 10 and lower is less than 1/5th of the time spent leveling, if that.

    On my treks through lives, of course all at the legend level, I go reasonably casually, probably about 1 month per life. Of that 1 month, I will be level 10 by day 3.

  7. #27
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    How much could a barbarian solo on elite with a bravery bonus?
    Theres a video of Shade soloing sins of attrition on elite 2 years ago floating around here somewhere. That would still qualify for bravery bonus, even with a level 20 toon.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #28
    Community Member Gandalfs_Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgemina View Post
    AFAIK, the repair spells go in bonus spell slots to represent the spontaneous casting. If you didn't have repairs spells in your spell book, you wouldn't have the bonus slots so it's a bit of wash.

    Looking at the wiki, you'll get 2 bonus slots for repair spells. http://ddowiki.com/page/Artificer
    Thanks, good to know.

  9. #29
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Are you sure that the class is OP?

    Are you only running with a single Arty in your group? Or six guys using repeaters?

    Is your dog really getting a lot of kills?
    My experience is that my dog is tough, but not a good killer.
    (and I took enhancements specifically to make him tough)(and gave him Docents as well)

    I also think that repeaters are better at low lvls than higher ones.
    Later on a Bow user wil be adding Str to damage. Lots of Str.
    The repeater guy will not.

    The bow guy will eventually have Slayer Arrows.
    I don't think Arty's have anything that can top that.

    I think a Repeater Rogue in U11 will be very powerful.
    (but he has to wait till lvl 6 to get his repeater prof...usually)

    Atry's do not run out of SP because they have little to spend their on.
    Repair spells being the most common usage of my SP.
    And ranged guys take less damage (usually).

    But my Arty (Human 14 Con, Toughness feat) feels squishy.
    Feels very squishy actually. If things go badly.

    But....
    In a group full of Arties... things rarely go badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  10. #30
    Community Member Velexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Sublime has run the Shroud and Inspired Quarter. The Core is completing Vale quests, and has been running quests over level 12 for about a year. And Mortal Voyage was running Orchard quests over 3 years ago. So you are clearly mistaken.
    I started playing Permadeath back when Sublime first came about. I've played in several permadeath guilds since then. The reason I am not very big into permadeath right now, is because you guys are doing it wrong (Big words from someone you don't know... scary... must defend! Hmh.)

    Anyway, clearly by your rant about the Artificer, I am not mistaken. I certainly know it's possible to get a character all the way to twenty and then some without dying. Hell, I play my normal characters with their safety in mind. I always remember when that first death was. Although to date, I have a few who haven't died yet ~_^ (Unless the Shroud counts, which apparently it does for some of those nutter PD'ers out there.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat: This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard leaves. "Game over man, game over! Now what the **** are we supposed to do?"

  11. #31
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    ... Nothing to do but hope they get a few whacks from the nerf bat.

    I totally respect PD play, even tho it wasn't my cup of tea when I gave it a go. However...

    Asking for a class nerf based on PD perspective is akin to asking for a PvP balancing nerf. Not a slope I'd like to see getting greased.
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  12. #32
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    I totally respect PD play, even tho it wasn't my cup of tea when I gave it a go. However...

    Asking for a class nerf based on PD perspective is akin to asking for a PvP balancing nerf. Not a slope I'd like to see getting greased.
    This I agree with.

    Class adjustments should be based on rule zero only - what the designers intended for the class. Those of us who play PD play by our own rules, and alot of those restriction choices and rule adjustments change the dynamics of power balance between classes.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #33
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    I started playing Permadeath back when Sublime first came about. I've played in several permadeath guilds since then. The reason I am not very big into permadeath right now, is because you guys are doing it wrong (Big words from someone you don't know... scary... must defend! Hmh.)...
    If you started in Sublime when it first came out and played in several permadeath guilds since then, you are someone we know. What were your character names? I'm interested in what you think we should be doing better.
    M O R T A L V O Y A G E
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I think a Repeater Rogue in U11 will be very powerful.
    (but he has to wait till lvl 6 to get his repeater prof...usually)
    it's too easy to take light repeater at 1, and use the free feat swap at 6...so I don't think that's an issue

  15. #35
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qindark View Post
    it's too easy to take light repeater at 1, and use the free feat swap at 6...so I don't think that's an issue
    Can also smash your way through to level 6 with a great ax like everyone else including 8 str casters do, heh.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Can also smash your way through to level 6 with a great ax like everyone else including 8 str casters do, heh.
    my 8 str caster can beat up your 8 str caster :P

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Are you sure that the class is OP?

    Are you only running with a single Arty in your group? Or six guys using repeaters?

    Is your dog really getting a lot of kills?
    My experience is that my dog is tough, but not a good killer.
    (and I took enhancements specifically to make him tough)(and gave him Docents as well)

    I also think that repeaters are better at low lvls than higher ones.
    Later on a Bow user wil be adding Str to damage. Lots of Str.
    The repeater guy will not.

    The bow guy will eventually have Slayer Arrows.
    I don't think Arty's have anything that can top that.

    I think a Repeater Rogue in U11 will be very powerful.
    (but he has to wait till lvl 6 to get his repeater prof...usually)

    Atry's do not run out of SP because they have little to spend their on.
    Repair spells being the most common usage of my SP.
    And ranged guys take less damage (usually).

    But my Arty (Human 14 Con, Toughness feat) feels squishy.
    Feels very squishy actually. If things go badly.

    But....
    In a group full of Arties... things rarely go badly.
    A full party of anything could crush anything. I specifically stated that artificers could solo or duo, kill everything and get every bonus, on elite with the bravery bonus. Two barbarians, two fighters, two rangers, two clerics, two fvs souls, two wizards, two sorcerers, two rogue, two anything would have a much more difficult time in level 1-12 quests.
    The Core HC Permadeath Guild
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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    I started playing Permadeath back when Sublime first came about. I've played in several permadeath guilds since then. The reason I am not very big into permadeath right now, is because you guys are doing it wrong (Big words from someone you don't know... scary... must defend! Hmh.)

    Anyway, clearly by your rant about the Artificer, I am not mistaken. I certainly know it's possible to get a character all the way to twenty and then some without dying. Hell, I play my normal characters with their safety in mind. I always remember when that first death was. Although to date, I have a few who haven't died yet ~_^ (Unless the Shroud counts, which apparently it does for some of those nutter PD'ers out there.)
    Sour grapes look like shriveled little balls, pal...
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  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    YUS!!!




    I disagree with "overpowered" as a blanket statement. See below:

    In lower levels, yes they are powerful, but compared to what? A sorc shooting 2SP single shot kill spells? A barbarian with korthos + to-hit gear on with full power attack one-shotting most mobs? Radiant servants low mana cure spells and free bursts? I dont see artificer being more powerful than anything else at low level.

    Ranged attacks dont scale well as level increases. While high level barbarians are critting for 700 points, high level fighters are haste boosting and destroying mobs, and high level sorcs and wizards are insta killing multiple mobs / per spell, the artificers crossbow isnt that much more powerful at level 16 as it was at level 6, unless mobs all attack you in a single file line. Their one major saving grace here is blade barrier. How many max empowered blade barriers can they put down in a no shrine situation?

    In terms of power:
    Low level FvS < low level artificer
    High level FvS > High level artificer

    Low level sorc or wiz < Low level artificer
    High level sorc or wiz > High level artificer.
    I see that as well. My arti is level 11 now and there's simply not enough DPS in a repeater that my Ranger or Horc fighter can do at 11. When I tried arti on lam I TR'd my once before FvS (since it had the spell enhancing gear). Once I could equip the triple earth GS repeater (don't ask) I can't say that I was overly impressed even when I hit critters without resistance to acid. Simply put at a certain point the Arti becomes more of a support character than DPS. Adding elemental, DR breaking or deadly weapons to the real DPS. And even with a full on SP providing cloak with the glacial bracers there's just not enough SP to uphold a lot of spellcasting DPS such as BBs and tactical detonation.

    I love playing my arti but I wouldn't call it OP. My other toons runs rings around it at cap.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    I see that as well. My arti is level 11 now and there's simply not enough DPS in a repeater that my Ranger or Horc fighter can do at 11. When I tried arti on lam I TR'd my once before FvS (since it had the spell enhancing gear). Once I could equip the triple earth GS repeater (don't ask) I can't say that I was overly impressed even when I hit critters without resistance to acid. Simply put at a certain point the Arti becomes more of a support character than DPS. Adding elemental, DR breaking or deadly weapons to the real DPS. And even with a full on SP providing cloak with the glacial bracers there's just not enough SP to uphold a lot of spellcasting DPS such as BBs and tactical detonation.

    I love playing my arti but I wouldn't call it OP. My other toons runs rings around it at cap.
    I don't doubt that artificers start losing ground to other classes at higher levels. But at level 11 I will take an artificer with limited gear over a ranger: say a +2 acid light repeater, with flame arrow, and elemental weapon. Manyshot gives the ranger 11 arrows per fire, but it only stays up for 20 seconds at at time. Artificers will do more damage with their x-bow, be able to heal themselves more effectively, give themselves stoneskin, and have a pet along that can grab initial aggro and be easily repaired by him. So while I agree with you, I think the ranger have to get up to level 15ish before he reaches parity with artificer. That's a long wait...
    The Core HC Permadeath Guild
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