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  1. #1
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Default How to kick based on HP!

    This is a straight forward guide to hopefully establish some solid rules for kicking players from parties for having poor HP values. I'll start by saying that I'm shooting for kicking the "really bad" ones, the ones who have dump stated con or demonstrate a complete lack of understanding the imortance of HP.

    So first, using the lowest POSSIBLE HP a class can have. Everyone gets 20 HP at level 1, and every should get the 10 HP from Gianthold, these are "free" and easy to get. Beyond that you get your class die type per level, so the absolute minimum a player should have at 20 is:

    Wizard, Sorceror = 110 HP
    Artificer, Bard, Rogue = 150 HP
    Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk, Ranger = 190 HP
    Fighter, Paladin = 230 HP
    Barbarian = 270 HP

    So, if you see someone join your party and they have LESS HP then the class should have, feel free to kick them with impunity and stand in wonder and amazement at how they made it to 20 in the first place.

    Assuming a player didnt' "Dump Stat" con, you can expect higher values as every 2 points in con above 10 equals 20 more HP at 20.

    12 Con = +20
    14 Con = +40
    16 Con = +60
    18 Con = +80
    20 Con = +100
    So on and so forth.

    Its not unreasonable to expect that a player, even with a 10 starting con, can manage to get that con to 16. So using 16 as the "target" for easily obtainable con, everyone should have a minimum of:

    Wizard, Sorceror = 170 HP
    Artificer, Bard, Rogue = 210 HP
    Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk, Ranger = 240 HP
    Fighter, Paladin = 290 HP
    Barbarian = 330 HP

    Again, feel free to kick anyone with a level 20 toon with less HP then listed above. Though these players are better off then the previous list, at least these players made "some" attempt at getting HP. You might want to keep them for at least trying I guess.

    Values over the above amount should be considered "OK" because not everyone has the "optimal" gear sets to push their HP's into the awesome range, and not every class has free feats to toss into taking Toughness 5x. However, feel free to belittle them and link all the awesome gear you have that you think they should have and then kick them from the raid that drops said gear, becuase they should have it already... you do.








    (humor, recognize it)

  2. #2
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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  3. #3
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    Quite funny, but I would actually use these as base guidelines..... if the barbarian actually has less than 300 hp at cap then there is something very wrong and he is causing unnecessary grief and/or entertainment for all party members.


    I still don't see why people complain about the new UI. When people (myself included) choose to filter they will. There is nothing short of a bugged myddo that will stop them. Those that don't filter will just make the standard comment of: Get +6 con, GFL and heavy fort. Really, all this does is mean that players will learn about hp much faster, be it from a filtering group or a flowersniffer group.

    As an addition, the second group I joined since u11 went live, I met a capped barbarian (well, actually he was a Reverse Blitz built, 12barb,6fighter,2rogue) who failed to meet the second set of standards you posted. And he wasn't even a 'new player' he was a second life toon .
    Last edited by Darknark; 09-13-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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  4. #4
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    I get that you're being humorous here but you actually have some good points.

    20 levels x 4 hp / level + 20 bonus starting = 100hp base at level 20 for an arcane.
    12 con really should be the floor for a character (and then only on an elf/drow).
    At level 17+ (really 15+ but we'll be generous) everyone should have a +6 con item and a +30hp item. These are very easy to get if they don't have to be clean. +6 con item with 12 starting con is +80hp's. So those two items along with starting con of 12 gives another 110hp's.

    So really, no toon should have less than 210hp's. No excuses.

    I would then add in the argument that if your toon is that low on hp's you really should have taken the Toughness feat. That would add 22hp. And you really should spend 3ap on racial toughness. That's another 20hp.

    So now we've got a reasonable bar of 252hp's. Anything less at level 20 and you should feel free to kick as the person simply isn't trying. These things require no special packs and can be achieved on a F2P with no tomes. Incidentally, I've got a level 19 toon that only has a handful of hp's more than that so I've got an interest in setting a reasonable bar.

  5. #5
    Community Member DarkAlchemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    I get that you're being humorous here but you actually have some good points.

    20 levels x 4 hp / level + 20 bonus starting = 100hp base at level 20 for an arcane.
    12 con really should be the floor for a character (and then only on an elf/drow).
    At level 17+ (really 15+ but we'll be generous) everyone should have a +6 con item and a +30hp item. These are very easy to get if they don't have to be clean. +6 con item with 12 starting con is +80hp's. So those two items along with starting con of 12 gives another 110hp's.

    So really, no toon should have less than 210hp's. No excuses.

    I would then add in the argument that if your toon is that low on hp's you really should have taken the Toughness feat. That would add 22hp. And you really should spend 3ap on racial toughness. That's another 20hp.

    So now we've got a reasonable bar of 252hp's. Anything less at level 20 and you should feel free to kick as the person simply isn't trying. These things require no special packs and can be achieved on a F2P with no tomes. Incidentally, I've got a level 19 toon that only has a handful of hp's more than that so I've got an interest in setting a reasonable bar.
    I have to say that I just ran into a GH group and the Sorc was level 14 with 93hp. WOW. My level 13 Rogue is running around with 216. :/

  6. #6
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    I find setting any HP standard for non-tanks to be absurd to be honest. If your a pure caster and you dont know how to avoid taking damage, no amount of HP is going to save you. If your "melee" DPS and you didn't consider the consequences of having no evasion and taking a meteor swarm to the face, then no amount of HP is going to save you.

    Smart Play > HP any day of the week

    HP's are important if its your roll to tank the boss, making it impossible for you to avoid damage, beyond that learn to avoid taking damage in the first place. I have seen many a high HP toon run first into a room full of enemies, get all their aggro, and loose 90% of thier HP and then beg for heals. I have seen the same rooms done by smartly played low HP players who walk out with full HP.

    Sadly, there is no way to measure skill in DDO other then past experience with that player. Also its unfortunantly true that its usually the inexperienced players who have the fewest HP, so it will become the standard by which people are judged.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Also its unfortunantly true that its usually the inexperienced players who have the fewest HP, so it will become the standard by which people are judged.
    Precisely.

    Although I must say that any self healing caster is a tank, and when played as one (with proper gear) can effectively have infinite spell points.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    I find setting any HP standard for non-tanks to be absurd to be honest. If your a pure caster and you dont know how to avoid taking damage, no amount of HP is going to save you. If your "melee" DPS and you didn't consider the consequences of having no evasion and taking a meteor swarm to the face, then no amount of HP is going to save you.

    Smart Play > HP any day of the week

    HP's are important if its your roll to tank the boss, making it impossible for you to avoid damage, beyond that learn to avoid taking damage in the first place. I have seen many a high HP toon run first into a room full of enemies, get all their aggro, and loose 90% of thier HP and then beg for heals. I have seen the same rooms done by smartly played low HP players who walk out with full HP.

    Sadly, there is no way to measure skill in DDO other then past experience with that player. Also its unfortunantly true that its usually the inexperienced players who have the fewest HP, so it will become the standard by which people are judged.
    everyone makes mistakes occasionally or suffers lag occasionally. not planning for that possibility is just bad design. the simple fact is that having more hit points is a good idea unless it cuts too much into something else.

    >200 hit points = 1 mistake in abbot asteroids puzzle, >400 hp = 2 mistakes, and occasionally mistakes do happen in spite of everything you might try to do to prevent them. which person do you want throwing asteroids, the experienced competent player with 150 hit points, or the experienced competent player with 450 hit points?

    furthermore, while there are certainly some experienced competent players with low HP, unless you know the person it's a much bigger risk if you get a person with low HP in your group; it's possible that they really know what they're doing and you just don't know who they are in spite of them having been around forever and having run many raids, but it's much more likely they don't know what they're doing. and while someone with good HP may not necessarily be a good player (and may even just be blindly following a build that they don't know how to use), at least it implies that they've done some research to figure out what is possible and reasonable. and i'll gladly take an unskilled player who has done some research over an unskilled player that hasn't done any research as well.

    now, granted, at lower levels you'll have lots of people who have no reason to know better. but by the time you get to level 14-15, they *should* know when they have low HP compared to everyone else (or at least, they should know they have very poor survivability compared to everyone else), and should be taking actions to correct that. and in fact, should have already taken said actions.

    the new level 1 wizard fresh from PnP or who has no experience with D&D has an excuse to not understand what is a good idea in DDO. but there is plenty of time for them to learn, and plenty of places to learn, if they want to, and so by the time they've gained a few levels they should know better.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Its not unreasonable to expect that a player, even with a 10 starting con, can manage to get that con to 16. So using 16 as the "target" for easily obtainable con, everyone should have a minimum of:

    Wizard, Sorceror = 170 HP
    Artificer, Bard, Rogue = 210 HP
    Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk, Ranger = 240 HP
    Fighter, Paladin = 290 HP
    Barbarian = 330 HP

    Again, feel free to kick anyone with a level 20 toon with less HP then listed above.
    I'd go higher than this. Even a Elf/Drow, with only moderate investment in Con and gear, should have a Con of 18, right? 6 build points (good rule of thumb) = 12 base Con, and a +6 item makes 18, for 20 more.

    And if you're going to include +10 for Argo favor, the +20 from Minos is as easy to get. And you can get GFL for 30 on the same item as your +6 Con (various Amrath belts).

    Toughness (once, not x5!) for 22 should be taken by everyone who isn't experienced enough to know whether they can get away without it, along with 3 AP worth of Racial Toughness enhancements for another 20.

    All that totals...20 + 20 + 30 + 22 + 20 = 112 more than your values. Or:

    Wizard, Sorceror = 282 HP
    Artificer, Bard, Rogue = 322 HP
    Cleric, Favored Soul, Monk, Ranger = 362 HP
    Fighter, Paladin = 402 HP
    Barbarian = 442 HP

    If you have values around that, it at least shows you tried a bit, even if you're still working on it.

    That's not including a +2 Con tome (easy to get via free +2 of choice at 1750 favor). Or the fact that races other than Elf/Drow will have higher Con. Or Class Toughness enhancements. Or (harder to get) GS HP items and exceptional Con items. Etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    (humor, recognize it)
    It might be funny, but it's also a good idea to have a guideline on what is reasonable to expect.

    Thanks for bringing up the topic and starting us with some numbers.

  10. #10
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    Players who don't realize that Toughness unlocks enhancements lines usually won't take toughness on its own merits. If you're a fairly new player, and you're trying to decide between Maximize Spell and toughness, the former is going to win out every time. It's not entirely obivous that the Toughness feat does more for you than what it advertises it does.
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  11. #11
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    I'd almost go far as to say that by level 20 the OP should easily be adding in another 72 HP for every class.

    42 for toughness feat and enhancements and 30 for GFL item.

    Honestly if you don't have both of those at least for a lower HD class by 20 you should be kicked.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  12. #12
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    There are many of us who do it for the challenge. My rogue has had 200 hp since i created it since I wanted to go as low as possible while still making it a challenge for me to stay alive and helpful to the group while also not dying at all during the quest, or if I do die, dying last.

    My next is going to be a dump con kensai twf porcupine fighter.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudfud View Post
    There are many of us who do it for the challenge. My rogue has had 200 hp since i created it since I wanted to go as low as possible while still making it a challenge for me to stay alive and helpful to the group while also not dying at all during the quest, or if I do die, dying last.

    My next is going to be a dump con kensai twf porcupine fighter.
    I've got some that might start getting rightfully kicked myself.

    I've got a couple toons that I've rolled up for Shortbus Heroes on Sarlona (no twink, chest loot or NPC vendors only, 3 random classes, random race, random stats, and random class at each level-up). They really need kicked from most normal groups.

  14. #14
    Community Member Robi3.0's Avatar
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    excellent guide! One complaint though could you please add a sliding scale so I know exactly when to HP kick someone level 1-19. It is really important that I don't mistakenly HP kick someone undeserving, as that would be rude.

    there's one thing you never put in a trap if you're smart. If you value your continued existence. If you have any plans on seeing tomorrow then there's one thing you never, ever put in a trap.

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