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  1. #21
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Designing a game around factions from the ground-up looks to be the only way to really approach balance in a player v. player environment. I really liked the game that has 3 factions, each has the same kind of classes, but varied.

    For example imagine that the spellsinger the virtuoso and the warchanter were classes instead and each belonged to one of the three factions.

    Each faction has questing areas strictly PvE and an area to fight other factions...with goals...a giant, 3 team, capture the flag where you can use siege engines and all kinds of stuff and each faction has the same power dynamic.

    Though I'd be a little tempted to try a PvP PD server that included friendly and self-fire, fireballs had lethal consequences to the caster on paper...but probably not more than once or twice.

  2. #22
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    I see alot of people saying this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    For those who want PvP, I suggest going to games with backgrounds designed for PvP. WoW is one. Asheron's Call Darktide server is another. I'm certain there are other good games for PvP play, and those don't require destroying the DDO we non-PvP players enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    One of if not the biggest reasons I'm still playing after most of two years. Thank you for bringing it up.

    As i stated before i am not a huge pvp fan But it is mainly because PvP is broken in DDO. I spend less than 1% of my time in PVP, usually when im bored to tears or waiting for a group to fill etc. IF PvP in DDO where not broken I might be inclined to spend more time in the "pits". Who knows?

    I personaly have very little mmo experience outside of DDO. can someone plz explain how this particular "group" is any more annoying than any of the other ddo "group". ie Role players, Perma Death players, FTP players and or Power gamers? I understand that nerfs and game modifications to accomadate PvP players would be annoying. This is why I think a seperate server or Specific Character could be tagged as PvP only. Then there would little or no interaction between the 2 groups and modifications could be made to affect only the server or specific PvP characters or another.

    I remember at the Relaunch of ddo when the whole ftp thing And the DDO store was implemented, there was a Huge amount of concern (including by myself) over the new players who were coming And were going to be FTP ?!?!? and how DDO would be ruined by both FTP and the DDO store. Now it is taken for granted and no one bats an eye.

    As far as the comments about those that want to pvp finding another game etc. I have to say that i am more than slightly annoyed. I have a few choice comments that I unfortunately cannot share due to the fact I do not want to be banned from these forums. I have a shared account with my wife who is VIP and I am a Premium player. I have been a subscriber since March of 06 (alot longer than some who post that PvP players should find another game to pvp). I have also played Pen and Paper since 79. I fail to see how MY enjoyment of PVP or lack thereof affects anyone else beside the players who actively participate in it. I have and do spend my money on DDO and see no reason i should be forced to find an other game for PvP.
    Last edited by baddax; 08-26-2011 at 11:56 PM.
    “If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles" TsunTzu

  3. #23
    Community Member heyytoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsEricka View Post
    How could you not expect that a thread title like this would get a lot of responses?


    Here's the issue with DDO PvP, it's lame.. oh sorry, I mean it's "broken". To be some sort of PvP player you need to build your toon for PvP. In most cases this means you're going to break your toon for PvE, especially if you're a caster.

    There's enough characters out there that are bad already, throw in the mix of PvP players with badly built arcanes thinking that they're entitled to be in your group and entitled to the same loot as everyone else when they don't contribute and you have issues.
    How is a PvP toon gimp?
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  4. #24
    Community Member Luthe111's Avatar
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    some pvp could be nice for as people say: 'their pvp fix'. i have these myself and enter a tavern brawl, where my lv 20 paladin could be killed by some poorly(or intentionally) aimed meteors, and my lv 10 caster can rip apart lv 20 fighters. obviously at least the attempt was made once, and while poorly executed, to make pvp. ive never been to the lobster and NOT seen people killing in the arena. and with some people playing even a broken system, imagine what even a partially reformed sytem or true pvp implementation could do.or (this is the part that might get turbines attention) i (others claim to do this as well) go spend my money on a different game so i get pvp. people play this without pvp. adding optional pvp would only increase possible monetary income.(players). though reading some posts, emphasizing the "only give pvp to those who want it" may be good idea. doing this through purchasable pack would be income friendly as all who want would probly buy, without really doing anything to bug those who dont.

  5. #25
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    If you build a toon to be successful in pvp it is more capable in pve. You are not fighting mindless AI monsters in there and you are dealing with opponents that are capable of dealing much more spell damage, melee damage, crowd control yada yada yada than most anything you face in pve.

    I don't pvp much anymore though as it is easier to deal out huge damage that will instakill or nearly instakill most players than it ever has been before. This makes it cheesy and not much of an accomplisment worthy of the amount of bragging and gloating that occurs imo. Plus have you seen some of the posts of some of these guys? They get killed by something and throw a fit to have it nerfed! That someone dared to kill them, the ultimate pvp champion of the world, is an affront of the highest order and they must be delt a blow by the devs since said posters can't seem to deal that blow themselves.

    There was a time when I would happily jump into a pit and fight with other players. When we had a few ground rules that are no longer there. When someones armor guard wasn't enough to bring you to your knees. When the winner wasn't determined by whose lightning strike/slayer arrow goes off first or more often. When people wouldn't dispel your buffs then rain magic missiles on you or drop whatever cheap casting tricks are used now. I got no problems with pvpers wanting to enjoy the game and asking for changes to pvp, it's your game too. Alas my heyday has come and gone a long time ago in the arena. I do miss it though. Fought alot of great players in there and remember them well.

  6. #26
    Community Member Koshy11's Avatar
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    Why don't you just buy out Turbine, tell them what to do, and see if your money's investment of your idea works?
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  7. #27
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    If you build a toon to be successful in pvp it is more capable in pve. You are not fighting mindless AI monsters in there and you are dealing with opponents that are capable of dealing much more spell damage, melee damage, crowd control yada yada yada than most anything you face in pve.
    That is really the key to any PVP, it is the human factor. Its is nearly impossible to replicate the thought/reactions of a Human opponent. I have yet to run a quest that is equal in excitement to when me and a buddy get on line and play sports games and or first person shooters. It is an excitement that is hard to replicate.
    “If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles" TsunTzu

  8. #28
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshy11 View Post
    Why don't you just buy out Turbine, tell them what to do, and see if your money's investment of your idea works?
    /Fail.
    Why dont you add something constructive instead of ridiculous inane comments to a hopefully serious constructive thread?
    “If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles" TsunTzu

  9. #29
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    ...
    I personaly have very little mmo experience outside of DDO...

    As far as the comments about those that want to pvp finding another game etc. I have to say that i am more than slightly annoyed. ...
    As you say you have very little other MMO experience. People, including me, suggesting other games probably have more other MMO experience and are actually making honest recommendations, me included. One I played for a couple of years is light-years ahead of where DDO could be for PvP because it was designed to be so from the ground up.

    So, instead of assuming others are saying this to be sarcastic I respectfully recommend you consider the possibility that other plays are genuinely trying to help.

  10. #30
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    As you say you have very little other MMO experience. People, including me, suggesting other games probably have more other MMO experience and are actually making honest recommendations, me included. One I played for a couple of years is light-years ahead of where DDO could be for PvP because it was designed to be so from the ground up.
    You are missing my point entirely. I would compare this to say going to a Harley dealership, Asking for a perfomrance bike and the Harley Sales person suggesting I should go down the road to the Kawasaki dealership because they are "ahead" of Harley in the perfomance bike division. As far as people making "honest" recomendations I have no problem with that. What annoys me is seeing someone post is I/We the DDO community do not want PvP so If you want to PvP you need to go to another game to do that. As if they somehow speak for the entire DDO community Or the money they choose to spend on DDO is somehow superior to someone elses who might enjoy PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    So, instead of assuming others are saying this to be sarcastic I respectfully recommend you consider the possibility that other plays are genuinely trying to help.
    I am not necessarily talking about posts directed to me, although posts that appear to voice the opinion of the DDO community and therefore appear to speak For me are particulalry annoying. Also as a long time forum poster I feal im pretty good at judging a persons intent off of what they say and i feal that even in this thread are good examples of posts who "appear" to be trying to be helpful, and those that make no such attempt and state plainly If you want PvP go else where as they dont like PvP. Or If DDO implements PvP they leaving. All im saying is it Should be possible to include PvP in ddo either through PvP specific characters Or a PvP specific server. This would allow for PvP while not directly impacting PvE. I feal that Should be an acceptable compromise. This Might encourage new subscriptions while (hopefully) keeping long time subscribers while also increasing the player base and hopefully generating more content for both groups which would appear to be a win win.
    “If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles" TsunTzu

  11. #31
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Below is a thread that I started a while ago. It perfectly addresses the issue of PVP in DDO in my opinion. Anyway, read on ...

    PVP is a sad affair in DDO at the moment simply because D&D mechanics are primarily PvE. Therefore, any pvp idea which could ever be successful has to take into account this fact. The idea of a DotA inspired map which combines PvE and PvP into 1 neat little package is perfect due to the simple fact that classes in DDO will never be balanced in a PvP sense but rather can be balanced in a PvE sense (which is the priority in DotA).

    For anyone unfamiliar with DotA;
    1. Each team has a home base which they must protect.
    2. From destroyable spawn points (near the home base) creeps (trash mobs) spawn and go on 1 of 3 preset paths towards the enemy base and encounter opposing creeps where they fight it out.
    3. The role of the players is to influence the outcome of these skirmishes and push the line towards the opposing teams base to hopefully destroy their base.

    Furthermore;
    a. There are defensive positions which must be destroyed to continue (turrets).
    b. It is possible to upgrade the creeps, prevent opposing trash creeps from spawning by destroying the spawn point or spawn boss creeps.
    c. There are neutral creeps which can be destroyed for sweet loots/upgrades/bonuses.
    d. You can kill opposing heroes (though this won't necessarily help you win the quest).

    There is no need to balance the game for this or make any adjustments whatsoever. If the map was implemented it would be hugely fun and exciting as is.

    However, there is 2 map specific balances that should be implemented to balance classes.
    I. Spawn Points and Defensive Positions should be immune to piercing (specifically ranged) and magical damage to provide some value to melee classes.
    II. Friendly creeps should be vulnerable to friendly fire (force archers and AoE spell casters to be careful where they fire their spells, again to provide more value to melee classes).

    Finally one global change which is to allow stealth to work in PvP to provide value to stealthy classes.

    Sell the quest as a premium adventure pack. Many wilderness areas could be used as a template upon which base and spawn points could be applied limiting the actual effort needed to implement the map.

    And done, finished, finito.


    After this, some thought could be given to strategies of progression over the course of the quest (perhaps your character can level over a preset path), equipment (perhaps strip everyone of gear), relative power of difference classes at different levels (casters tend to own more at higher levels) and possible rewards (guild renown?).

    I suspect that items stripped, max level 10 would be about perfect for maximising skill and entertainment.

  12. #32
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    I simply think that DDO does not have the mechanical basics to make it a good pvp game and all what makes DDO enjoyable would be at stake if they tried to balance it for pvp.

    There are so many games with better pvp options available, some are even free:

    League of Legends (free)
    Starcraft (one time buy)
    EvE Online (sub)
    Guild Wars (one time buy)
    WoW (sub)
    LotRO ('free')
    etc.

    I myself play LoL if I feel the need to smack people in a nice team based combat. No every game must cater to all styles of play. Sometimes it's better to concentrate on what's good about your game and leave the rest for other games.

    That said I don't care at all if people participate in brawls in DDO. I just really don't want compromises to be made because of them. I fear it would break more on the PvE side than it would help on the PvP side.

  13. #33
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    One thing I loved trying was pvping at Lammania. You get to play with people that you only see at the forums
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  14. #34
    Community Member diamabel's Avatar
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    When I'm playing a MMORPG then I'm not interested in meeting eSports.

    PvP is a different matter, though. It's easier to manage with small groups of people and a few referees. The kind of PvP found in MMORPGs is lacking in many aspects.



    To mention a few:

    Take arcanes for example. The rulebooks offer lots of (optional) rules for magic duels where you can counter spells (deflect the spells, throw the spells back at the caster or dispel the spell). Conditions of victory would be determined beforehand. As an example: the first to run out of spells / being unable to cast more spells could lose such a duel. If both run out of spells then it would be a draw. This could be more interesting than just nuking down the red bars.

    Another idea could have been an event like the crystal cove where two competing teams try to reach some set goals first. I guess that has been suggested in the past as well. Handing out item rewards for participating in or winning such a scenario is a two edged sword. Just have a look at WoW's battlegrounds. It ended in all kinds of players that were not interested in PvP have a freeride at faction renown and items. The PvPers then groaned and started to complain about the quality of PvP.

    The neverending balance issue. An apple wants to fight a pear. And the loser is going to complain about the winner and how some ability of the opponent is overpowered or unfair. Since this is a role playing game with archetypes taken from fantasy and mythology how can there be balance? On top of that you'll have always issues between ranged combatants and meleers. Sticking to fights between apples and apples or pears and pears is an easy solution because opponents would have similar strengths and weaknesses.

    Maybe adding some kind of referee system to sanction griefing is a way. RL sports have them for obvious reasons.


    But then again I don't play DDO for the PvP.

  15. #35
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    You are missing my point entirely. I would compare this to say going to a Harley dealership, Asking for a perfomrance bike and the Harley Sales person suggesting I should go down the road to the Kawasaki dealership because they are "ahead" of Harley in the perfomance bike division.
    j

    Not at all like this...I...and others not flagged as such...don't work for Turbine. If you and I were both shopping at the Harley dealership and we're commenting on the same bike and you say something about $30k maybe being out of your budget right now as you're looking for a motorcycle to commute to work with to save money on gas, I, as a fellow customer, might suggest checking out something like a Nighthawk or something if your commute is only a few miles.

    I've thought of it more like someone buying a Toyota Corolla then deciding they want to go off-roading then complaining that they broke their car in the first ditch...now wanting Toyota to make all future Corollas 4 ft off the ground with 4 wheel/all wheel drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    ...Or the money they choose to spend on DDO is somehow superior to someone elses who might enjoy PvP...
    This would most likely be your self-generated inference, not something implied...the comments lacking overt insults lack the intonation and body language needed to make your conclusion the most reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    ...I feal that Should be an acceptable compromise. This Might encourage new subscriptions while (hopefully) keeping long time subscribers while also increasing the player base and hopefully generating more content for both groups which would appear to be a win win.
    One possible source of disgruntlement in the anti-PvP crowd might be found in the squabbles that crop up, even on Thelanis, between people over general chat over some silly tavern experience. Can we just turn off general chat? Sure, should we have to?...no. This, unfortunately, does lead to some bias.

    What I think I might be failing to convey just how superior other platforms that are designed for PvP are. I mean...OK..take stealth as an example. Without the ability to really be invisible there's no real point to any significant stealth investment for any rogue variant with an eye on PvP. So they add hiding stealthers from everyone else and they have to make a spot check to be able to see them...oh, spot is a limited class skill, so now the assassin "owns" pvp because no casters can actually target them until the assassin drops stealth. Oh, right, True Seeing...works on stealth of just magical invisibility? See Invisible? Well, either one would have no resist and True Seeing is flat-out easy to get, now assassins are pointless again...but wait, there's Glitterdust...does this work in a public instance? I expect there'd be a lot of coding work, starting with making stealth functional for PvP but not for PvE as now that healer can't target your stealthy stealther.

    Meanwhile a stealther in a game designed for it actually can sneak up on a human player enemy, execute some kind of attack chain and might succeed or fail depending on skill v ability checks that were planned for before the first line of code was written....and they can go do that right now. Want to take down a keep by knocking down walls with trebuchets and catapults while people are using a ram on the front doors? You can do that right now...(well, not really right now you'd need to do some leveling and farm coin and such, but you can start on it right now).

    So really at least for myself I'm just suggesting that seeking an immersive and rich PvP experience in DDO is simply most likely to result in frustration. I'm not suggesting anyone just specifically take their toys and go home just that if DDO playtime isn't the kind of playtime you (as in plural) enjoy there are other playspaces out there. Its your dime.

  16. #36
    Community Member Templarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post
    But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.
    This is a very good argument and I have been thinking why Turbine hasn't done anything to achieve more players. Of course, some would leave if this happened but after all - nobody forces people to PvP so I think there would less leavers and more comers.

    Well, I don't know. I don't care much but playing balanced ladder PvP between dungeon crawling sessions could be refreshing. Why not?

  17. #37
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Did someone say "PVP Haters Sign-In"?
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  18. #38
    Hero Marcus-Hawkeye's Avatar
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    I'm by no means a PvPer so to speak, however if they implemented some kind of PVP system like they had in AC2, I could definately see myself far more interested in it.... The system had abilities granted dependant on the wins and objectives you completed during PvP. It's been such a long time i don't really remember what it was all about, I just remember playing PVP because it was fun and the abilities were cool.

  19. #39
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    j

    Not at all like this...I...and others not flagged as such...don't work for Turbine. If you and I were both shopping at the Harley dealership and we're commenting on the same bike and you say something about $30k maybe being out of your budget right now as you're looking for a motorcycle to commute to work with to save money on gas, I, as a fellow customer, might suggest checking out something like a Nighthawk or something if your commute is only a few miles.
    This would be acceptable except for die hard Harley riders are not likely to be caught on another brand of bike as there is a considerable amount of brand loyalty. I believe also this would be considered heresy in many areas and might result in said offender being burnt at the stake for being a witch.

    This would most likely be your self-generated inference, not something implied...the comments lacking overt insults lack the intonation and body language needed to make your conclusion the most reasonable.
    It is not an inference when a person posts specifically that they would rather quit ddo than see ddo improve or promote pvp.

    One possible source of disgruntlement in the anti-PvP crowd might be found in the squabbles that crop up, even on Thelanis, between people over general chat over some silly tavern experience. Can we just turn off general chat? Sure, should we have to?...no. This, unfortunately, does lead to some bias.
    This is easily solved by a seperate PvP chat chanel coding already exists.

    What I think I might be failing to convey just how superior other platforms that are designed for PvP are. I mean...OK..take stealth as an example. Without the ability to really be invisible there's no real point to any significant stealth investment for any rogue variant with an eye on PvP. So they add hiding stealthers from everyone else and they have to make a spot check to be able to see them...oh, spot is a limited class skill, so now the assassin "owns" pvp because no casters can actually target them until the assassin drops stealth. Oh, right, True Seeing...works on stealth of just magical invisibility? See Invisible? Well, either one would have no resist and True Seeing is flat-out easy to get, now assassins are pointless again...but wait, there's Glitterdust...does this work in a public instance?
    I believe all or mostly all spells work in designated PvP areas ( not tavern brawls). There is also radiance which would require a blindness immunity item.
    I expect there'd be a lot of coding work, starting with making stealth functional for PvP but not for PvE as now that healer can't target your stealthy stealther.
    Why should the healer have to be able to heal a stealthed character? This should be understandable and accepted as a risk. Regardless you are not likely to be needing many heals while stealthed as i believe any damage breaks stealth anyways.

    Meanwhile a stealther in a game designed for it actually can sneak up on a human player enemy, execute some kind of attack chain and might succeed or fail depending on skill v ability checks that were planned for before the first line of code was written

    I do not see this as difficult to do this code already exists in the PvE environment. I also Believe DDO was intended To have PvP from the beginning (regardless of what some people have claimed as I remember the PvP leaders boards that existed for quite some time when i first joinedin 06 ....and they can go do that right now. Want to take down a keep by knocking down walls with trebuchets and catapults while people are using a ram on the front doors? You can do that right now...(well, not really right now you'd need to do some leveling and farm coin and such, but you can start on it right now).
    Sorry I do have limited (My sister in law and her husband played wow for a while) experience with WOW and cant imagine anything worth 2 coppers that exists in that game.

    So really at least for myself I'm just suggesting that seeking an immersive and rich PvP experience in DDO is simply most likely to result in frustration. I'm not suggesting anyone just specifically take their toys and go home just that if DDO playtime isn't the kind of playtime you (as in plural) enjoy there are other playspaces out there. Its your dime.

    While this is perfectly acceptable answer, for myself i would rather find 1 mmo to fullfill all my online gaming desires.Once i find a truly superior product to DDO I likely will change mmos completely, however as for now i am content with DDO. I am seriously hoping that the new star wars mmo is an outstanding mmo with a good pvp system.
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  20. #40

    Default And that's where I stopped reading!

    "PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP."

    Have you been to Ghallanda recently?
    I beat any caster who has bad AC (basically everyone) with my ranger build, 9/10 times or 19/20 times.
    Heck I beat 3 WF TR's 3vs1 8 times in a row and these guys are the more able pvpers of the server. Lol.
    I got maybe 500 kills these months alone with Emphasized, my new designed build, vs the best casters on Ghallanda pvp wise. There were only a select few who could kill me and a very very select few who survived a snipe.
    Ask anyone about me and they would lie if they said it's not true.
    And no, no every ranger build can do that, you need a good designed build, idea.
    So with all due respect bro, your totally wrong about casters dominating, your mind creates this false reasoning cause you don't know anything about pvp I think.
    You can bring you caster(s) to the lobster, on Ghallanda..
    send a pm to emphasized or either one of my mains ill make it quick for you, 10 out of 10, 20 out of 20 i dont care nor would it probably matter ;p good luck on my 50/50 saves, evasion manyshot and l2, if you survive that ill switch bow, if your palemaster if you move you die (gotta love disruption)

    Now stop spreading this false information about pvp it's fine as it is, we just need some better designed areas and minor implementations of the pets from artificers etc, little things.

    A good player creates what he wants to create and theirs no boundaries.
    And no casters do not rule pvp, they just have sp and good damage, they are also the perfect weak and slow target for a high dps ranger, esp WF.

    For now, i'm waiting for your caster bro

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