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  1. #1
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    Question Epic Demon Queen Raid Cheesyness

    I have a sincere question for the community.

    Why is the ball method frowned upon / hated / called cheesy? Or they say this tactic is so bad but still use it (hypocritical?). Is there any other way to run this on a non-cheesy way?

    When running VoD, it is better to stay together so that mass heals/cures are used to the full potential. Sp effectiveness comes in mind. When I am running with my friends in Epic Last Stand, since none of us are uber or leet, our tactic is stay together and help each other out. Same concept.

    Have you watched the movie 300? They stick together, like the ball method. There's this line where the spartan leader said, (I am paraphrasing) one flaw on the group will be the demise of all.

    How about the movie The Gladiator of Russel Crowe, when they went to the ball method to survive the ambush of the chariots.

    Yes I know they are from the movies, but still it s a feasible concept.

    So now, why is the ball method hated?

    My opinion is, it is not about the ball method, it is about the Raid mechanics that you just stand there.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

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    Well she doesn't trip when she's not moving, or something along those lines. What I believe ****es people off about it more (I've heard people go on long winded negative speeches when asked if the ball method is going to be used) is it trivializes what used to be one of the harder raids available to us. Ball method is probably around 99% auto-win, before it became the dominate method I can remember round 2 and sometimes 3 being a lot more frequent. Sure a good group still crushes it the old way, but pretty much any group of 12 can complete with the ball method.

    So what happens when you take something that used to be on the more "elite" side of specturm, maybe something that even had a little pride or senese or accomplish to it, and turn it into something that takes about as much skill as being afk? Most people will simply adjust to the path of least resistance, others will ***** and cry. There are people who play this game that have their sense of accomplishment tied into, while I personally might find it misguided we all need to draw pride and accomplishment from something in life and it's really not for me to judge. When something that was a point of pride is taken away from that personality type and made easy for the masses, it's a bit of ego crush. Negative reactions should be expected, possibly even sympathized with.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    It's certainly not an exploit, but it does trivialise an otherwise fairly challenging and fun encounter and turns it into a gear and alignment check. If you are moderately geared and not Lawful, Lailat is just a loot pinyata.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Hephaistor's Avatar
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    But useing a tank and have the rest of the group wack on the backside of a raidboss is not cheesy? Not to mention using a light monk to prevent the stun in TOD? Where is the line? Anybody feeling cheesy when boxing an rednamed in Shroud V as long as the casters get SPs back?

  5. #5
    Community Member Sarisa's Avatar
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    The easiest way before was an Intim tank, but that is not possible anymore due to both the Intim changes in u9 and that she essentially ignores Intim based aggro now.

    Ranged methods need to die. They're micromanagement hell.

  6. #6
    Community Member BurningDownTheHouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Lailat is just a loot pinyata.
    +1 for this.

    I think I'll misquote it in my sig if you don't mind.
    Last edited by BurningDownTheHouse; 08-25-2011 at 07:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Lailat is just a loot pinyata.

  7. #7
    Community Member Lavek's Avatar
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    its called tactics and cooperation


    people who want some sence of accomplishment should try real life and not moan why the game is easier when people work together lol
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  8. #8
    Community Member krackythehoodedone's Avatar
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    In the good OLE days their was kinda two methods.

    Get an intimi tank and everyone whack her from behind whilst someone kited the gnolls archery fire.

    This was ok apart from the fact that you needed 80 odd to intim her which only a very few could manage. I believe she was and still is the hardest critter to intim in the game.

    Or get two high DPS, high HP tanks. Assign them their own personal healers. keep them up whilst rest of party hit her from behind when the oppurtunity arose. Have a third healer/bard to look after party and someone to occupy the gnolls.

    With both methods everyone descends on Efreet en masse when they appear apart from kiter

    Neither of these methods was a gimme. Their were regular fails and the whole party needed to be really strong.

    The ''Ball'' method has a much higher chance of success and you can ''carry'' one or two weaker toons along with you. It is also very very simple tactically, so no chance of anyone screwing up.. Your only real enemy is lag.

    I suppose the ''cheesy'' comes from the rather dull simplicity of ''stand their and swing''

  9. #9

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    you guys are forgetting the old kite method when you could use waves on her. Never heard or used the ball method until they nerfed waves (no sure how it was on epic with waves back then)

  10. #10
    Community Member krackythehoodedone's Avatar
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    Yes you are right

    Both of the above methods were relying on the mage to '''exhaust'' her

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palantyr View Post
    Well she doesn't trip when she's not moving, or something along those lines. What I believe ****es people off about it more (I've heard people go on long winded negative speeches when asked if the ball method is going to be used) is it trivializes what used to be one of the harder raids available to us. Ball method is probably around 99% auto-win, before it became the dominate method I can remember round 2 and sometimes 3 being a lot more frequent. Sure a good group still crushes it the old way, but pretty much any group of 12 can complete with the ball method.

    So what happens when you take something that used to be on the more "elite" side of specturm, maybe something that even had a little pride or senese or accomplish to it, and turn it into something that takes about as much skill as being afk? Most people will simply adjust to the path of least resistance, others will ***** and cry. There are people who play this game that have their sense of accomplishment tied into, while I personally might find it misguided we all need to draw pride and accomplishment from something in life and it's really not for me to judge. When something that was a point of pride is taken away from that personality type and made easy for the masses, it's a bit of ego crush. Negative reactions should be expected, possibly even sympathized with.
    I totally and utterly disagree with this kind of reasoning, and I've never even done that quest. All the quests should be completable with the average-geared, average-skilled player. Accessibility is crucial in MMOs.

    I cannot understand why'd you'd judge yourself in a video game based on what other people have or have not done. You were right when you said this kind of pride is misguided. It's Dungeons and Dragons, not Counterstrike! One for all and all for one and let's work as a team to take on the challenges, not "Ha ha, I did it and you didn't". Leave that kind of attitude on the school playground.

  12. #12
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
    I totally and utterly disagree with this kind of reasoning, and I've never even done that quest. All the quests should be completable with the average-geared, average-skilled player. Accessibility is crucial in MMOs.

    I cannot understand why'd you'd judge yourself in a video game based on what other people have or have not done. You were right when you said this kind of pride is misguided. It's Dungeons and Dragons, not Counterstrike! One for all and all for one and let's work as a team to take on the challenges, not "Ha ha, I did it and you didn't". Leave that kind of attitude on the school playground.
    My sentiments too mate...

  13. #13
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
    I totally and utterly disagree with this kind of reasoning, and I've never even done that quest. All the quests should be completable with the average-geared, average-skilled player. Accessibility is crucial in MMOs.
    I do believe that there should be a large number of quest for average-geared, average-skilled players. But there should also be at least a few quests/raids for above-average skilled players who have characters that are dripping with high end gear. Otherwise, the entire game becomes a cake walk that you can snooze your way through once your play skills improve and you actually acquire some high end gear.

    Instead of demanding that EVERYTHING be completable by everyone, why not enjoy a little variety? As long as there are good, fun quests for everyone, what's wrong with having a few extreme challenges in the game?

  14. #14
    Community Member Grieve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krackythehoodedone View Post
    I believe she was and still is the hardest critter to intim in the game.
    Incorrect. The highest intim requiring Raid Boss is Xy'zzy (Elite HoX) who requires 2 more intim than Epic Lailat.
    Elite HoX Intim = 81 (85 for Halfling)
    Epic DQ Intim = 79 (83 for Halfling)


    Also, if anyone tells you it was difficult to get the Intim numbers to lock down either of those, I would highly disagree. I tanked both effectively, pre-U9, on an almost Pure Halfling Rogue and if a Rogue can do it then the actual tanking classes should have no issue. It just means people weren't willing to sacrifice a little DPS to be a utility in raids.
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  15. #15
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    Lailat should visit her trainer and swap blade barrier for cometfall. I doubt people will dare to stand close together under that threat.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Jiirix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krackythehoodedone View Post
    Yes you are right

    Both of the above methods were relying on the mage to '''exhaust'' her
    So using exhaust as a tactic was honorable, but the new one the players were using after the nerf not? And is the ball tactic the same then the spartan one? I was in some fail-pugs with this tactic, but I now that a good guild group with good healers won't fail it. But good guild groups tend to fail seldom because they know what to do.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    ...Instead of demanding that EVERYTHING be completable by everyone, why not enjoy a little variety? As long as there are good, fun quests for everyone, what's wrong with having a few extreme challenges in the game?
    I'm sure there are a lot of people in the game who think the game's way too easy, and honestly want to be challenged.

    It's quite possible I don't play with them because they see my weird builds and decline/ignore the join request. My bet is that they realize that my builds are teh uberz, and don't want me to trivialize their experience

    The vast majority of the groups I join want to complete a quest/raid in the easiest manner possible, not the hardest.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call it cheesy, more like boring. The raid is now too easy with the ball method. I use this method everytime now, but there's no challenge to it anymore. Only thing you have to worry about really is lag. I actually kinda miss the old way, lol. The reforms were about as abundant as abbot is. There were many deaths usually, but it felt good once the queen was dead. Don't know about you, but every 3 days and after 3 reforms of edq2, I would pump my fist and yell "YES!" when the queen finally went down. A lot of "good work" and pats on the back. Now its an easy token and everybody already has a lot of the shards they want. Aaah, the good ol' days.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    I do believe that there should be a large number of quest for average-geared, average-skilled players. But there should also be at least a few quests/raids for above-average skilled players who have characters that are dripping with high end gear. Otherwise, the entire game becomes a cake walk that you can snooze your way through once your play skills improve and you actually acquire some high end gear.

    Instead of demanding that EVERYTHING be completable by everyone, why not enjoy a little variety? As long as there are good, fun quests for everyone, what's wrong with having a few extreme challenges in the game?
    Keep in mind that in this game, many quests have exclusive loot, that's unsellable, and can only be acquired in that quest. Also, this game practically demands favor, which means you need to be able to complete all the quests at the highest level.

    There's nothing wrong with challenge, I've nothing against it. But a person's idea of success should not be based on whether or not others did it; this is a video game, not mount Everest.

    As for something to do for the uber geared players, I've always advocated a bottomless, randomly generated dungeon, with each level harder than the last. Each would have a boss or bosses guarding the stairs to the lower level. It would be impossible to complete. There would be no reentering upon leaving, and a party wipe would mean the group gets kicked out. People could strive for bragging rights and maybe some fluff titles: "Survived til level 37!"

  20. #20
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
    Keep in mind that in this game, many quests have exclusive loot, that's unsellable, and can only be acquired in that quest. Also, this game practically demands favor, which means you need to be able to complete all the quests at the highest level.
    I fully understand what you're saying, but I don't see why everyone playing the game should reasonably assume that they "deserve" to get an eSoS on every character or that they should be able to complete an elite ToD. There needs to be at least *some* challenge for every player just like there needs to be some "easy" quests that even the most casual players can handle.

    And since there are easy quests that even the most casual players can handle and I keep seeing people make easy button requests (and I'm counting you in that group because of the earlier post), I get a little irritated because the people who already have easy quests available to them want to take away the hard quests. What's wrong with a little diversity?

    Also, what favor is actually "required" in DDO? Once you have all of your coin lords backpack spaces and your Phiarlan Pendant of Time and your 10 bonus HP from Argonessen, what do you really need?

    You don't need Silver Flame pots to complete any quests. You don't need Yugo favor to complete any quests. What favor is so critical that you think the overwhelming majority of characters and players should be able to complete every quests in the game at every difficulty level?

    There's nothing wrong with challenge, I've nothing against it. But a person's idea of success should not be based on whether or not others did it; this is a video game, not mount Everest.
    You do appear to have something against a real challenge since you are asking Turbine to take away the challenging quests and replace them with quests that every average player with an average character and average gear can complete even on Elite.

    I'm not saying that I want to see a couple of quests that can't be completed by "average" players because I want to keep those players from completing the quests. I'm saying that I want to see a couple of quests that can't be completed by "average" players because the quests that can be completed by "average" players are a complete snooze fest for above average players with above average characters and above average gear.

    Go back into Waterworks on Normal once your character is 8th level. How fun is it? That's how the high level quests will end up if they're watered down the way you're asking. Most people already sleep walk through the Shroud. Please don't ask for the other high level quests and raids to be made the same.

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