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  1. #21
    Community Member Asmodeus451's Avatar
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    not sure if anyone else has encountered this, but as a premium player i should have 4 character slots, right?

    in fact i HAD 4 before i deleted a toon to make room for another one.

    after deleting that toon, i now only have 2 Character slots.

    bug reported, but have NOT gotten ANY response
    The Funniest Thing I've Ever Read
    Toons: Twengor (pal), Margween (Bard/FTR/Rogue), Nestrana (wiz), Ammerlyn (Arti), Ostarin (Monk) on Cannith

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    No no no. That isn't what "Known Issues List" means.

    What you're talking about is a "Throughly Understood Problems List", which serves the function of informing users that some problems are so well-understood by the devs that there is no reason to provide any further reporting. It's something that mainly serves the developers by improving the quality of incoming bug reports.

    Making a "Known Issues List" has a different purpose: it is step one in the process of repairing flaws in software. When a software developer becomes aware of a problem in her product and can't launch a fix immediately, then the conscientious reaction is to document the problem to the users, so they're forewarned and can choose to modify their behavior to avoid it, if they think it's warranted. Since fixing a bug typically takes a pretty long time, the Known Issues list would be be the resting place for problems for a long while. (In game development there's an exception granted for bugs which could be used to perform exploits, but that's a minority of the issues). The Known Issues list is a service to the users.

    For example, suppose you get reports that players running a certain raid are finding their weapons permanently deleted. You don't know what causes it, but you've had enough different reports that it seems pretty credible. So you immediately go and put a Known Issues warning about possibly deleted items in that raid. If it later turns out you were mistaken, then that's just an abundance of caution, which looks less bad than if you were suppressing acknowledgement of the flaw.
    We add issues for this reason as well as several others, too.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    No no no. That isn't what "Known Issues List" means.

    What you're talking about is a "Throughly Understood Problems List", which serves the function of informing users that some problems are so well-understood by the devs that there is no reason to provide any further reporting. It's something that mainly serves the developers by improving the quality of incoming bug reports.

    Making a "Known Issues List" has a different purpose: it is step one in the process of repairing flaws in software. When a software developer becomes aware of a problem in her product and can't launch a fix immediately, then the conscientious reaction is to document the problem to the users, so they're forewarned and can choose to modify their behavior to avoid it, if they think it's warranted. Since fixing a bug typically takes a pretty long time, the Known Issues list would be be the resting place for problems for a long while. (In game development there's an exception granted for bugs which could be used to perform exploits, but that's a minority of the issues). The Known Issues list is a service to the users.

    For example, suppose you get reports that players running a certain raid are finding their weapons permanently deleted. You don't know what causes it, but you've had enough different reports that it seems pretty credible. So you immediately go and put a Known Issues warning about possibly deleted items in that raid. If it later turns out you were mistaken, then that's just an abundance of caution, which looks less bad than if you were suppressing acknowledgement of the flaw.
    +1

    Please Turbine, listen to this.
    "And you ate an apple, and I ate a pear,
    From a dozen of each we had bought somewhere;
    And the sky went wan, and the wind came cold,
    And the sun rose dripping, a bucketful of gold. " - Millay

  4. #24
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    *Known issues list is NEVER going to contain everything that is known. Sorry. There are internal reasons not to do that, be it exploits, or other reasons. No company on Earth KI's every issue.
    *I already said, that Lamania is not going to be a robust list. It comes down to my priority...robust list, or work on the release. I'm working on the release.
    *As for known issues of the past that still exist...that is going to take some time by me to go back through the past and dig through them.
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

  5. #25
    Community Member stricq's Avatar
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    Here's one I haven't seen on the forums, and yes, I reported it. The Black Dragon Scale Armorer in GH (forgot his name) will not take 20 Black Dragon Scales. He says that they are useless to him.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Known issues list is NEVER going to contain everything that is known. Sorry. There are internal reasons not to do that, be it exploits, or other reasons. No company on Earth KI's every issue.
    *I already said, that Lamania is not going to be a robust list. It comes down to my priority...robust list, or work on the release. I'm working on the release.
    *As for known issues of the past that still exist...that is going to take some time by me to go back through the past and dig through them.
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.
    LIEZ!

    Everyone knows if you use <fave software package>, everything self-documents and the problem goes away! What do you mean, you're using <other software package>?!?!? I have a copy of that, right next to my flint knife and bone spear!

    It's inconcievable that you've not heard of <preferred SDLC process>; the problems integrating actual work with documentation are resolved by plublishing your <process artifact here>!

    Plus, you should be on Linux.

    *Disclaimer: I reserve the right to make these and other arguments, at any time and all times, regardless of merit, based purely on how irritable I am at the moment or if I think it's really, really funny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    The expectation isn't for the list to have "everything"; but to have enough to basically serve the players' needs for a Known Issues list.
    I don't do more than skim the known issues list at the moment, because odds are what I want to know is in some other player's forum rant, not on the list.

    I just treat it as WAI; it is what it is, and one can only do what one can do.
    Last edited by SableShadow; 08-15-2011 at 12:40 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Known issues list is NEVER going to contain everything that is known. Sorry.
    The expectation isn't for the list to have "everything"; but to have enough to basically serve the players' needs for a Known Issues list.

    For example, suppose there was a bug where the Kensei III and Barbarian Rage features interfered with each other, and that someone on the development or QA staff had looked closely enough at it to be 99% sure it was real. In that case, taking the time to add it to the Known Issues list should become a high-enough priority that it gets done within 7-10 days. But here is the Known Issues list, and it never contains the words "Kensei", "Kensai", or "Barbarian Rage".

    Typing up two sentences on a new known issue should only take a couple minutes. If there are procedural obstacles which make it more time-consuming than that (such as needing to go through different people to find the one with permission to edit the page), then those are something the organization could work on streamlining. For example, developers/testers could click a checkbox on bug reports to flag them for inclusion in known issues, and then once a month some Community Relations person could go down that queue and type brief entries for each one.

    (Doing Known Issues with minimal effort could create a risk of including errors, but issue entries with a chance of mistakes are better than issue entries that don't exist yet)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Known issues list is NEVER going to contain everything that is known. Sorry. There are internal reasons not to do that, be it exploits, or other reasons. No company on Earth KI's every issue.
    *I already said, that Lamania is not going to be a robust list. It comes down to my priority...robust list, or work on the release. I'm working on the release.
    *As for known issues of the past that still exist...that is going to take some time by me to go back through the past and dig through them.
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

    I'd like it.. In a prfect world at least contain maybe 1% of the ACTUAL reported and much discussed bugs that have been around for a long time. I know I know it's not THAT easy... But it coudl be easily MUCH better, and more informative than it currently is. They did do a good service a few mods back, when they spent a couple weeks wroking on a bunch of long standing often reported and discussed bugs.

    The fact of the matter is..... The current form of The Known Issues list is pretty much worthless to the player community. It's kind of like taking a shower, going to dry yourself off and the towel is soaking wet

    Nope it's not easy......

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    LIEZ!

    Everyone knows if you use <fave software package>, everything self-documents and the problem goes away! What do you mean, you're using <other software package>?!?!? I have a copy of that, right next to my flint knife and bone spear!

    It's inconcievable that you've not heard of <preferred SDLC process>; the problems integrating actual work with documentation are resolved by plublishing your <process artifact here>!

    Plus, you should be on Linux.

    *Disclaimer: I reserve the right to make these and other arguments, at any time and all times, regardless of merit, based purely on how irritable I am at the moment or if I think it's really, really funny.




    I don't do more than skim the known issues list at the moment, because odds are what I want to know is in some other player's forum rant, not on the list. I just treat it as WAI; one can only do what one can do.

    Trying to use fancy geek talk to make yourself look important isn't working

  10. #30
    Community Member puget's Avatar
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    Default an idea for you majmalphunction

    Hey maj, I had this one moment yesterday, where a little light bulb went off over my head, I remember at one time in the near past you had said you have been contemplating a bug report forum, but the woe's that would go with it is why it will probably never exist.

    Anyway, if you care to take a look at this, like I said, it was just a light bulb and that light bulb kept shorting out as my 5 minute timer ran out farming sands, but I think I was pretty dang coherent in the idea.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=335181

    Anyway, good times for me, gave me something to do for 9 hours until I ransacked the chests at least.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Trying to use fancy geek talk to make yourself look important isn't working
    And....?

    As for the usefulness of threads like this: they're useful.

    Players tracking known issues is handy, since they usually care more and have more time to devote to the activity.
    Brenna, Tzanna, and Tzinna Wavekin
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  12. #32
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Known issues list is NEVER going to contain everything that is known. Sorry. There are internal reasons not to do that, be it exploits, or other reasons. No company on Earth KI's every issue.
    *I already said, that Lamania is not going to be a robust list. It comes down to my priority...robust list, or work on the release. I'm working on the release.
    *As for known issues of the past that still exist...that is going to take some time by me to go back through the past and dig through them.
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.
    Yes I am aware that it just isn't feasable for a variety of reasons to maintain 100% current Known Issues list.

    What I am asking is what qualifies something to be put on there? Is it determined by being a confirmed issue, as in 'QA person Jane has reproduced this, is goes on the list now.'? Is it determined by length of time to fix, number of reports, how much it affects the game? There are obviously parameters that are in use in determining what makes the list, I am just trying to find out what they are.

    Is the KI's list a source of shame for QA? As in QA person Jack says 'darn, something I was working on is bugged and made the list ' or does Jack say 'My, my, look at this list, we may not be able to fix them all, but we are aware of them and we are making progress.' I've seen both in practice and some others.

    Just curious is all.

    As for Lammania known issues vs. Live known issues, I would prefer the Live version be more accurate and more visible. Lammania, to me anyway, is more about content.
    ~ Rukan 4/3 pal/mnk(Past Life mnk x3) ~ Ignavus 16 wiz(Past Life sor/wiz) ~ Styphon 20 Game Deformer(Past Life Clr) ~
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    And....?

    As for the usefulness of threads like this: they're useful.

    Players tracking known issues is handy, since they usually care more and have more time to devote to the activity.

    I was joking at your joking..... But it fell flat


    Yes they are useful threads.. Unless you're dealing with Turbine.. I mean these very same threads have been sarted and killed for what 5 years now for this game. Still same worthless known issues/bug reporting sytem as has been for a longtime. Perhaps they are working on it more... We'll see but as of LAST new mod.. It didn't get any better...

    I can hope..... It's always easy from the armchair side...

  14. #34
    Community Member altrocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Known issues list is NEVER going to contain everything that is known. Sorry. There are internal reasons not to do that, be it exploits, or other reasons. No company on Earth KI's every issue.
    *I already said, that Lamania is not going to be a robust list. It comes down to my priority...robust list, or work on the release. I'm working on the release.
    *As for known issues of the past that still exist...that is going to take some time by me to go back through the past and dig through them.
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.
    Points 1 and 2 = QFT. Keep working on the update. For a quick and dirty preview, it's looking amazing.

    Point 3 is concerning though. There have been handwrap issues with every build and release since they came out it seems. They're getting better, but every update that fixes one thing seems to either only half-fix it, or break something else with them. It's actually one of the many reasons I don't want to play a monk. If I can't trust that my weapon is doing what it says it does, then how can I effectively prepare for any quest or raid?

    Also, I'm hoping Rune Arms don't fall into the same pit of problems that handwraps have had. I have no clue if the coding for them is similar or not, but they seem similar from this side of the game. Can't wait to try them out, but hoping they're not borked from the get-go.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    as for voice actors I wanted Betty White for Lolth but I got voted down.
    Khyber: Alelric - Wiz 5 (Hero), Arayaleth - Ranger 20 AA (Champion), Altrocks - Cleric 20 Radiant Servant (Champion), Zinnix - Rogue 20 Assassin (Champion)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    The expectation isn't for the list to have "everything"; but to have enough to basically serve the players' needs for a Known Issues list.

    For example, suppose there was a bug where the Kensei III and Barbarian Rage features interfered with each other, and that someone on the development or QA staff had looked closely enough at it to be 99% sure it was real. In that case, taking the time to add it to the Known Issues list should become a high-enough priority that it gets done within 7-10 days. But here is the Known Issues list, and it never contains the words "Kensei", "Kensai", or "Barbarian Rage".

    Typing up two sentences on a new known issue should only take a couple minutes. If there are procedural obstacles which make it more time-consuming than that (such as needing to go through different people to find the one with permission to edit the page), then those are something the organization could work on streamlining. For example, developers/testers could click a checkbox on bug reports to flag them for inclusion in known issues, and then once a month some Community Relations person could go down that queue and type brief entries for each one.

    (Doing Known Issues with minimal effort could create a risk of including errors, but issue entries with a chance of mistakes are better than issue entries that don't exist yet)
    The issue with Kensai and Barbarian Rage will also be included in our next update of the Known Issues list (on Lammania 1st, and it'll be on the live KI list when we update that next as well.)
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    I was joking at your joking..... But it fell flat
    I've either had too much coffee, or not enough ...

    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    Yes they are useful threads.. Unless you're dealing with Turbine.. I mean these very same threads have been sarted and killed for what 5 years now for this game. Still same worthless known issues/bug reporting sytem as has been for a longtime. Perhaps they are working on it more... We'll see but as of LAST new mod.. It didn't get any better...
    Not thinking of build specific threads, something along the lines of, oh, CoX ... there's usually a person or two keeping a running track of class specific bugs/feature requests. Granted, those particular forums aren't exactly as hoppin' as they used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    I can hope..... It's always easy from the armchair side...
    Very true. But I reserve the right to make an ... err, jerk of myself periodically about one bug or another, since I'll do it anyways and I might as well be honest about it.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    yeah. i mentioned that already. 2nd thing on my list in the first post, actually. thats the whole purpose of this thread. keep a running tally of all the bugs i'm seeing mentioned in other threads. and any that get posted here also. but i'll answer things that aren't bugs
    Yeah I saw that line, but I was just adding that it's not just goggles, it's helms as well that only show on humans.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by altrocks View Post
    Points 1 and 2 = QFT. Keep working on the update. For a quick and dirty preview, it's looking amazing.

    Point 3 is concerning though. There have been handwrap issues with every build and release since they came out it seems. They're getting better, but every update that fixes one thing seems to either only half-fix it, or break something else with them. It's actually one of the many reasons I don't want to play a monk. If I can't trust that my weapon is doing what it says it does, then how can I effectively prepare for any quest or raid?

    Also, I'm hoping Rune Arms don't fall into the same pit of problems that handwraps have had. I have no clue if the coding for them is similar or not, but they seem similar from this side of the game. Can't wait to try them out, but hoping they're not borked from the get-go.

    That is point 4, and yes handwraps is getting a full look see by QA. Handwarps is my personal sore spot. It is sloppy, no question about it. Hopefully the fixes will make it in for 11. There is a reason under the covers of why these keep busting, and making them all work in harmony seems to be like herding cats.

    Runearms are not like handwraps...well a part of them is, but they are not effected by the legacy of handwraps in the same way.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    The issue with Kensai and Barbarian Rage will also be included in our next update of the Known Issues list (on Lammania 1st, and it'll be on the live KI list when we update that next as well.)
    What he said.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    That is point 4, and yes handwraps is getting a full look see by QA. Handwarps is my personal sore spot. It is sloppy, no question about it. Hopefully the fixes will make it in for 11. There is a reason under the covers of why these keep busting, and making them all work in harmony seems to be like herding cats.

    Runearms are not like handwraps...well a part of them is, but they are not effected by the legacy of handwraps in the same way.
    So it is. I have problems with math, much like Eladrin, but lack his time travel capabilities.

    Excellent to know the problems are being seriously looked at. Up until now it always looked like the handwrap "fixes" were bandaids on a gunshot wound. Time for surgery!

    Also good to know Runearms won't be copy-pasted from wraps. That has been my biggest concern about artificer since Lama came up.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    as for voice actors I wanted Betty White for Lolth but I got voted down.
    Khyber: Alelric - Wiz 5 (Hero), Arayaleth - Ranger 20 AA (Champion), Altrocks - Cleric 20 Radiant Servant (Champion), Zinnix - Rogue 20 Assassin (Champion)

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