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  1. #201
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Garden gnomes should be the next playable race.

    Positives:
    +2 to CHA and immunity to enchantment magic
    - Can cast flesh to stone 3x per rest (DC = level + CHA bonus)
    - Can cast stone to flesh (3x per rest)
    - Have the ability to cosmetically change armor and other items to random, really garish colors (at will, 3 second cooldown)

    Garden gnomes get bonuses to light damage spells, as well, especially when you equip them with items that have the incandescent affix.

    Negatives:
    -2 to DEX., cause they don't move very well
    -2 to saves versus disintegrate

  2. #202
    Community Member Nephilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    Garden gnomes should be the next playable race.

    Positives:
    +2 to CHA and immunity to enchantment magic
    - Can cast flesh to stone 3x per rest (DC = level + CHA bonus)
    - Can cast stone to flesh (3x per rest)
    - Have the ability to cosmetically change armor and other items to random, really garish colors (at will, 3 second cooldown)

    Garden gnomes get bonuses to light damage spells, as well, especially when you equip them with items that have the incandescent affix.

    Negatives:
    -2 to DEX., cause they don't move very well
    -2 to saves versus disintegrate
    And every fall from more than 3 feets have a chance of causing a disintegrate effect on em!
    ALL HAIL TO ITS SQUISHY-MAJESTY SIR KNORR, LORD OF OOZES AND MASTER OF SLIME
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=386688

  3. #203
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post
    There are many various postings about it in this and other threads as there are many varieties of gnomes.

    Typically, they have the hardiness traits similar to dwarves (and often the con bonus, though some varieties have other bonuses instead). However, they are not like dwarves in that they are much more magical oriented.

    And, their size is more like halflings and they are mischievous like halflings. But, they are NOT a dwarf and they the NOT a halfling as many noobs complain in these threads!

    Due to their orientation to magic, in a way, they often have some bonuses that might be more akin to elves.

    Typically their favored classes (and thus their enhancement bonuses) would be (depending on type and version) oriented towards artificers, bards, and wizards (but specialists in illusion spells). I'm personally more of the fan of the older DnD versions that were more oriented towards wizards and artificers.
    They're also not employed to make gardens look nice or sell travel insurance :P

    Seriously though the 3e version of "Gnomes" were mechanically just crappy dwarfs and in every other edition (including 5e according to a QA Panel with the WOTC Devs) they have some form of +Int and bonuses with illusion magics and mechanical things (In DDO would likely have enhancements with rune arm, arcane casting with a focus on illusion, trap skills, trap making and of course +Int)

    Without using an actual race from 3e +2Int/-2Str would make sense but the closest race in 3e to real gnomes is Tinker Gnomes which are +2Int/Dex, -2Str/Wis (LA+0 race thus 32pt enabled...because limiting Drow was a dumb idea and should never be done again)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #204
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephilia View Post
    And every fall from more than 3 feets have a chance of causing a disintegrate effect on em!
    While I like the spirit behind this suggestion and I think it has merit in reality, disintegration might be considered a bit too harsh a consequence from a random bad dice roll, from the perspective of many players. Perhaps a compromise solution could be that garden gnomes take 2x falling damage.

    Otherwise, people might not take playing a garden gnome seriously, when they get introduced to the game. And that would be a Bad Thing.

    On a more serious note, Tinker gnomes would be fine as a "P2P" race, to pick up with FL's post, with perhaps one or two other "exotic" gnome types as P2P races (sold as a bundle, perhaps), and perhaps the "garden variety" (ie: usual) gnome could be a "free" race.

  5. #205
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephilia View Post
    And every fall from more than 3 feets have a chance of causing a disintegrate effect on em!
    That was a bug...its fixed now :P

    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    On a more serious note, Tinker gnomes would be fine as a "P2P" race, to pick up with FL's post, with perhaps one or two other "exotic" gnome types as P2P races (sold as a bundle, perhaps), and perhaps the "garden variety" (ie: usual) gnome could be a "free" race.
    As much as I would be fine with that I doubt the devs would deem it worth making multiple gnomes races. On the other hand a "Little People Pack" bundle with Kobolds (+2Cha/-2Int..or +dex/cha,-int/str) and Gnomes (+2Int/Dex, -2Str/Wis) would be awesome
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 01-16-2013 at 08:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #206
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Another case of "common knowledge" being dead wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Seriously though the 3e version of "Gnomes" were mechanically just crappy dwarfs and in every other edition (including 5e according to a QA Panel with the WOTC Devs) they have some form of +Int and bonuses with illusion magics and mechanical things
    Repeat a myth enough times and too many buy into it. If you are playing a melee class, yeah, a gnome might well be a crappy dwarf depending on the build. Another group says a gnome's a crappy halfling - make up your minds myth-makers! It's neither in 3.5 (and though you say 3e in the above quote - DDO is 3.5, and gnomes were changed in 3.5 from 3). I agree that I prefer the historical illusionist (specialist wizard) favored class and focus over the bard, but it's not without some precedence (think of as a blending of illusionist/rogue or cleric/rogue or cleric/illusionist).

    Base Dwarf Vs Base Gnome 3.5 PnP Differences
    +2 Con, -2 Cha (bad for bards!) -Ability- +2 Con, -2 Str (good for casting bards, slightly better for arcanes)
    Med (no changes - good for melee) - Size- Small (+1 AC, +1 To Hit, +4 Hide; good for non-melee)
    Darkvision, Stability (+4 Ability Checks) -Not Used in DDO- Low-Light
    +2 Search/Appraise/Craft (Stonework - not used in DDO) -Skills- +2 Craft (Alchemy), +2 Listen
    Dwarven Waraxe (good for melee) -Bonus Martial Weapon- Gnome Hooked Hammers (eh...)
    +1 To Hit Orcs, +4 AC vs Giants -Racial Combat-+1 To Hit Kobolds/Goblinoids, +4 AC vs Giants
    Poison and Spell Saves +2 (good for melee) -Saves- Illusion Saves +2 (more caster oriented)
    n/a (wanna be caster only for the Con bonus) - Casting- +1 Illusion DC's (very nice in certain spells)
    n/a (again, caster wanna be) -Spell-Like Abilities- Speak w/ Animals, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation
    Fighter (combat based in keeping with above) -Favored Class- Bard (skilled arcane, in keeping with above)

    Ahem... same could be done as above for halfling/gnome comparisons - though instead sharing the "con" bonus, in this case they share the small size bonuses (but again, halflings just are not catering to arcane casting in DnD). Now, the older PnP forest gnome would be closer to halfings and elves than to dwarves. The base rock gnome is more kin to dwarves.

    Also, some things that make it into DDO enhancements (and in PnP in things like Prestige Classes, Feats, and Racial Substitution Levels in optional books) - often these are things as a NOD to niches in prior versions. Let's just look at Prestige Classes (and the related Racial Substitution Levels)...

    Dwarf Prestiges (non-attributed are from Races of Stone):
    Dwarven Defender (base DMG, exceptionally cool dwarf fighter type)
    Battlesmith (making your own armor/weapons)
    Deepwarden (underground ranger type)
    Runesmith (a dwarf-ly arcane!)
    Dungeon Delver (a Complete Adventurer nod to dwarven rogues, though not race restricted)
    Ollam (a Complete Adventurer nod to dwarven clerics)
    Battle Trickster (a Complete Scoundrel nod to dwarven fighter/rogues, though not race restricted)
    Dark Hunter (a Complete Warrior nod to dwarven fighter/rogues, though not race restricted)
    Warpriest (a Complete Divine nod to dwarven fighter/clerics, though not race restricted)
    Dwarven Paragon (an Unearthed Arcana nod to dwarven fighter/rogues)

    Dwarf Racial Sub Levels (from Races of Stone):
    Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer (dunno what drugs devs were on for this last one)

    Of particular note and power in the above list for Dwarves are the Dwarven Defender and Dwarven Cleric (Racial Sub).

    Gnome Prestiges (non-attributed are from Races of Stone):
    Arcane Trickster (base DMG and not restricted to gnomes, but has illusionist/rogue written all over it)
    Blade Bravo (fencing fighter or rogue)
    Divine Prankster (rogue combined with cleric or bard)
    Shadowcraft Mage (illusion specialty)
    Maester (a Complete Adventurer nod to magical crafting gnomes)
    Uncanny Trickster (a Complete Scoundrel nod to gnome fighter/rogues, though not race restricted)
    Gnome Giant-Slayer (a Complete Warrior nod to gnome fighters or rogues)
    Effigy Master (a Complete Arcane tribute to gnome illusionist crafters, though not race restricted)
    Gnome Paragon (an Unearthed Arcana nod to gnome illusionists)

    Gnome Racial Sub Levels (from Races of Stone):
    Bard, Illusionist (i.e., Wizard Specialist), Ranger

    Of particular note and power in the above list for Gnomes are the Arcane Trickster and the Gnome Illusionist (Racial Sub). In the Eberron setting, gnome artificers are pretty cliche (as is gnome tinkerers in Dragonlance) and I'm not as familiar with the PnP version, but I couldn't find anything that significantly changed the above stuff.

    Now lets finally end this myth about gnomes being dwarf or halfling wanna-be's - they are in their own class (or race specializing in their own different classes)!
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

  7. #207
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    I specified MECHANICALLY...all the prestige classes and stuff you mentioned as far as we know will never see the light of day (because devs decided making actual racial prestige is too hard) so really beyond the stats and some minor racial differences (ie. Skill bonuses) Gnomes in 3.xe are MECHANICALLY crappy dwarfs. On the other hand your post helps demonstrate how stupid the +Con/-Str is since EVERYTHING else about gnomes is still geared towards being elusive, spellcastery, tinkery,etc. so it makes the non-sensical stats stand out even more

    Lore wise I love gnomes...well actual gnomes not the so-called "Garden Gnomes" detractors are referring to I mean the OCD poster child gnomes...although I think they'd prefer "stubborn" as for their illusionist side one of my favorite build is the Illusionist/Rogue (or something similar like Beguiler) especially with a few Arcane trickster levels thrown in.

    So yeah the +Con/-Str was stupid it makes no sense lore wise for the gnomes and mechanically gives little reason to use them...I still used them because I love gnomes but I eventually switched to Tinker Gnomes since they were more like real gnomes whereas 3.xe Base Gnome reminds me more of Deep Gnomes except not as cool.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 01-17-2013 at 06:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  8. #208
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Wrong again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    all the prestige classes and stuff you mentioned as far as we know will never see the light of day (because devs decided making actual racial prestige is too hard) so really beyond the stats and some minor racial differences (ie. Skill bonuses) Gnomes in 3.xe are MECHANICALLY crappy dwarfs.
    Repeating a myth doesn't make it any more true except to the uninformed who assume it's true because they heard it.

    I said the prestige classes show up in DDO in enhancements - they've put some prestige classes there and some racial stuff has shown up in racial enhancements. Ergo, you are wrong in DDO terms of there being no difference. And, in PnP, it's clearly wrong as there clearly is a huge difference between gnomes and dwarves and it would only be no difference in DDO if devs were as simplistic as your oversimplified myth. Apparently, you only noticed the ability and skill differences. Geez, by that standard all humanoids are just crappy humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    On the other hand your post helps demonstrate how stupid the +Con/-Str is since EVERYTHING else about gnomes is still geared towards being elusive, spellcastery, tinkery,etc. so it makes the non-sensical stats stand out even more
    BTW, in 1E, there is no racial ability adjustments for gnomes. In 2E, it's +1 Int, -1 Wis - though some of the other bonuses are tied to their Con (and them being distantly related to dwarves), ergo, it's not a huge switch, though I would agree there that a I prefer the Int. However in 3.5E, the Gnome's Con makes Dwarf casters pretty lame compared to the Gnomes, so I do applaud them there (as in 3E, any race can be any base class) as I find the abundance of Dwarf casters rather annoying. In 4E, they redid the whole ability bonus with a radical shift, but I think it went back to Int and also Cha. So, 2 of the 4 versions use Int, one Con, and one none - which demonstrates how different Gnomes are in that they are not exactly like any of the other races (or even like human) in that they are harder to stereotype to specific classes. Again, pointing out that they are unique and not a crappy anything. Gnome bards tend to be more "book" focused than "music" focused (and more skills focused than some bards - particularly knowledge and crafting) - thus, the bard in 3E isn't without precedence in 3.5, just a variation from the bard we are used to seeing. Gnome casters are more illusion and mechanical pet focused than other casters - again, a change from the typical caster as well. Admittedly, the caster took a back seat to the professor/crafter bard, but again, they didn't do away with the caster side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Lore wise I love gnomes...well actual gnomes not the so-called "Garden Gnomes" detractors are referring to I mean the OCD poster child gnomes...although I think they'd prefer "stubborn" as for their illusionist side one of my favorite build is the Illusionist/Rogue (or something similar like Beguiler) especially with a few Arcane trickster levels thrown in.
    Illogical. From the mantra about gnomes being a crappy dwarf, why isn't your Illusionist/Rogue a Dwarf Illusionist/Rogue. From this statement about loving gnomes, you'd have to instead say that Dwarves are Crappy Gnomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    So yeah the +Con/-Str was stupid it makes no sense lore wise for the gnomes and mechanically gives little reason to use them...
    Incorrect - we might consider it not as logical (and there, I'd partially agree) as an Int bonus, but it is very useful for a caster. There's a reason why so many play dwarf casters, though that's just one of the things that annoy me from loving the game all the way back to 1E. (And, on the sense side, Con makes some sense in the distant relationship of Rock Gnomes to Dwarves).
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

  9. #209
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    OK I'm going to make this very simple...were pretty much agreeing...Gnomes are awesome and +Int makes MUCH more sense for Gnomes than +Con...unless were talking about Deep/Rock/Svirfneblin Gnomes.

    As for Dwarven wizards...huh? what are you talking about...I have ONE Dwarf Wizard...wanna know why...cause he's a Melee character my "Real" wizards go nowhere near that race. If Gnomes released as +Con/-Str...I'd probably make all my wizards,arties,rogue,etc. Gnomes anyways...you know why...cause gnomes are awesome but it would get shredded in the forums for being a "flavour" build
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  10. #210
    Community Member Grizzie's Avatar
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    Here's a pic of the new gnome race in DDO

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cannith - Treeza, Wluf, Qooza, Aqa, Skooosh, Suq, Baax
    Guild: Brotherhood of the Wolf
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  11. #211
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Hey Smurfs are awesome...but keep your blue off my gnomes :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  12. #212
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    We don't need another +int race, we need a +Wisdom Race, there is none!

    Aasimars please!

  13. #213
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauraliane View Post
    We don't need another +int race, we need a +Wisdom Race, there is none!

    Aasimars please!
    We don't have a +Int race.

    Edit: I'm guessing your mistakenly referring to Drow....which is a Dex race with only 28pts remaining since 4 have have been chosen for you in Int and Cha
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 01-18-2013 at 10:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    We don't have a +Int race.

    Edit: I'm guessing your mistakenly referring to Drow....which is a Dex race with only 28pts remaining since 4 have have been chosen for you in Int and Cha
    There's another race that can start with a 20 INT? There's a big difference between +2 STAT points and 2 BUILD points. That jump from 16 to 18 INT costing 10 instead of 16 build points, for example, and a far cry from 2 stat points already chosen. Those extra 4 build points other races have would only get the character to 17 from 16 in such a case.

    Drow are an INT race.

    The issue is that the racial bonus becomes less prominent with Human and Half Elf options for bonus to INT in the enhancements so the benefit means a bit higher earlier and saving enhancement points spent on INT compared to Human or Half Elf. They end up saving 2 AP that would have went to racial INT over those 2 races.

    Drow should have an option to purchase INT or CHA or DEX racial enhancements, any one of which locking out the other 2. That's something I'm hoping to see in the new enhancements if they ever get here.

    The flaw I foresee with argument there is no INT race disregarding Drow is the assumption that INT Gnomes would have a STAT benefit when there is no guarantee that they would have racial INT enhancement either and if such enhancement were to be applied they could be added with Drow if we can get enough support.

    Either way, I'm still up for Gnomes as the next race, and given the reputation for Gnome artificers in parts of Eberron there is campaign specific reasons to apply benefits geared to that class in the enhancements as well as bard enhancements giving the favored class in 3.5E.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
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