Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default Self-sufficient, survivable pally DPSer

    Hello,

    I'm new to DDO but an experienced MMORPGer of melee classes. As such, I have appreciation for a survivable, self-sufficient melee DPSers, and I also love soloing difficult or nigh-impossible things. Pally seems the way to go for this (if y'all have other suggestions for a class, I'm listening to that too).

    Goals:
    Top-End DPS
    Self-sufficiency in epics/raids eventually
    Survivability
    Soloability
    Healing amplification?

    Resources
    32 point is the idea, but I may TR up to 36 eventually. I'll probably LR into a build after this thread. I am willing to splurge on +2 tomes as needed.

    I have read Junts' excellent pally guide here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542), and have been mainly building my pally off of one of the sample builds, the Human TWF 18 pally/2 rogue one (copied here for convenience):

    Code:
     
    IX.	 Sample Human TWF/Evasion
    
    Lawful Good Human Paladin 18 / rogue 2 (rogue levels at 1 and 10)
    
    Str:	16 + 5 level ups	(6 item, 1 human enh, 3 exceptional, 2 tome = 33, 34 with +3 tome)
    Dex: 15 + 2 tome (qualifies for twf .. if +1 tome only, reverse str/dex)
    Con: 12 (20 with tome and item)
    Int: 8	 (2 skill points)
    Wis: 8	 (16 with tome and item)
    Cha: 16 + 2 tome	 (qualifies for DM3: 26 charisma with assorted gear)
    
    1: Toughness
    1: Two-Weapon Fighting
    3: Exotic Prof: Khopesh
    6: Extend Spell
    9: Improved TWF
    12: Improved critical: slash
    15: Greater TWF
    18: Power Attack
    
    Level 1 rogue: 4 ranks in balance, use magic device, tumble, jump, intimidate, pick lock, Haggle, 2 other skills of your choice
    Paladin levels: 2 points in UMD
    Rogue 10: 4 pick lock, 3 wherever you like
    
    Knight of the Chalice 1-3 (8 ap)
    Courage of Good 1-2 (3 ap, pre-req)
    Energy of the Templar 1-2 (3 ap, pre-req)
    Divine Sacrifice 1-2 (3 ap)
    Divine Might 1-3 (6 ap)
    Extra Lay on Hands 1-3 (6 ap)
    Extra Smiting 1-4 (10 ap, pre-req)
    Exalted Smiting 1-4 (10 ap)
    Racial Toughness 1-2 (3 AP) 
    Paladin Toughness 1-3 (6 ap)
    Follower of the Sovereign Host (2 ap, pre-req)
    Unyielding Sovereignty (4 ap, pre-req)
    Human adaptability: Strength (2 ap)
    Human improved recovery 1-2 (6 ap)
    paladin charisma 1 (if needed to be even, 2 ap)
    Rogue Sneak Attack Training 1 (1 ap)
    Rogue Haste Boost 1 (1 ap)
    Paladin resistance of good 1 (1 ap)
    Here are my questions:

    1) Is this build still up to date/desirable? (I had read about KoTC no longer being as strong vs demons?)
    2) I see a lot of pally/monk builds here istead of pally/rogue splash. Is it for the two martial feats, and what does that allow you to do?
    3) How should I tweak this build to meat my goals for self-sufficiency, survivability, and soloability?

    Thanks muchly gurus!

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default Reserved

    -Reserved for current plan based on feedback.-

  3. #3
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Norcus View Post
    1) Is this build still up to date/desirable? (I had read about KoTC no longer being as strong vs demons?)
    2) I see a lot of pally/monk builds here istead of pally/rogue splash. Is it for the two martial feats, and what does that allow you to do?
    3) How should I tweak this build to meat my goals for self-sufficiency, survivability, and soloability?
    1) Yes, the dual-khopesh evasion paladin is certainly a viable and strong build, though see my response to #2. If anything changed with KoTC VS evil outsiders, it is news to me.

    2) Most people splash two monk levels instead of rogue. You're basically trading a bunch of extra skill points and haste boost 1 for two feats. Either are viable, but if your goals are self-sufficiency and soloability, then those extra feats can do a lot for you. Most notably, what they can do is allow you to pick up Maximize and Quicken. With these metamagics + paladin devotion + healing amp + Superior Ardor potions + some way of regenerating SP you will be nearly unkillable in the majority of content that you'll want to solo.

    3) Other than the points above, the major thing I would like to see is more than 12 con. I totally recognize that this is not trivial to achieve, but it is worth some thought on how to raise it a bit. I would recommend 16 strength, 15 dex, 14 con, 8 wis, 8 int, 15 charisma. This requires a level up point (probably the one at 20) in to Cha to qualify for Divine Might 3, but that is a worthy trade-off.

    EDIT: I mean to include a link to Junts' evasion build. This is a great place to look for more ideas.
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...enne+justifier

  4. #4
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,959

    Default

    You're build looks good for a first life DPS-focused Pally. I actually think Rogue is great to start with so that you can utilize UMD for your self sufficiency (i.e. heal scrolls). At least until you find yourself a Torq and make a Concordant Opposition item, then you could TR into a 2 monk splash so that you can pick up quicken and maximize.
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

  5. #5
    Community Member k1ngp1n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Looks strong, I do love my pally rogue.

    Point of consideration. You don't even out your STR until you get a +3 tome. Something to consider is dropping STR by 1 and popping those into CON. 20 HP > 1 STR, imo.

    Either way works. This build is a blast to play and very hard to kill. Keep UMD maxed. I also popped some points into Concentration to help get scrolls off in 'Oh ----' moments.
    Sarlona: Riyana | Ilyrae | Elaeria | Arlayh | Aryis | Lyanis | Yaera | Kyilsi | Malitae | Niariel | Laeriya
    'Polluting Sarlona with gimpy elves since 2009.'
    Endgame

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default Interesting

    Hey,

    Thanks for the great feedback! I'm glad to hear that it's relatively minor and encouraging. I hadn't even noticed that it was a 12 con build or the point about the odd strength. I'll definitely try to tweak that around a bit.

    Rogue vs Monk Splash

    The main benefit of rogue splash vs monk splash, (other than some minor sneak attack bonus in parties sometimes, and being able to cheese out low-level locked chests/doors) is definitely the UMD. I was kind of sad, though, to realize that as a cleric I could already use cure light wands/bull's strength wands/resist fire wands. I guess that the higher level heals will be useful and not naturally allowed for pallies.

    It looks like the question comes down to UMD versus Maximize and Quicken (not OTWF? That was my guess heh). I suppose the idea is to have Extend, Maximize, and Quicken active at all times (other than for out-of-combat-patch jobs) so as to be able to keep buffs going and have extra "lay on hands style" fast, large heals?

    What scrolls/wands/gear do people find themselves using with UMD that would be the trade off with the extra metamagic?

    TR

    Also, in the LONG term planning department, as far as TR goes, if I was to reincarnate, would pally-pally-pally make sense? Maybe a life as a barb or rogue? I realize I wouldn't be taking any of the active feats.

  7. #7
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    6,522

    Default

    Am I the only one who read the OP and said "doesn't this describe all pallies?"

    You could be a pure Pally, and still have the UMD for Heal scrolls. Or, take Empower Healing/Maximize/or Empower, whatever flavor you prefer, go with Torc + C.O., and go that route. Or heck... 4 LoH + Unyielding Sovereignty go a long way all by themselves.

    2 Rogue/2 Monk gives Evasion, sure... meh.

    Certainly, having more build points to play with would make things stronger for you. As a first-life paladin, I would suggest THF, just because it allows you to dump Dex, and put more into Con or something.

  8. #8
    Community Member MsEricka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Winnipeg Canada
    Posts
    3,068

    Default

    Am I the only one who read the OP and said "doesn't this describe all pallies?"
    Truth

  9. #9
    Community Member Adrian99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    The Demonweb Pits
    Posts
    402

    Default

    Although Paladin seems to be the default "self-sufficient / survivable" melee build, there are other options to consider. If you don't mind spending cash on scrolls and wands, a Half-Elf Fighter with Cleric Dilettante can do considerable DPS while staying alive. Or say a halfling 18 fighter / 2 monk with maximize feat and healing dragonmarks. Personally I find both of those options better for a new player because Paladins rely so heavily on short-term clickies in order to keep their DPS competitive. But I'm sure 50% or more of the forum populace will directly contradict that opinion
    On Thelanis: Survo ... Wattr ... Tigerpalm ... Cranefist ... Hobbson ... Grayed ... Shadowstance ... Smashcut

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    11

    Talking Yep

    [q]Am I the only one who read the OP and said "doesn't this describe all pallies?"[/q]

    Well, that's why I picked a pally for my first toon, yes. And it's certainly been that way in early game (though I can't even cast spells until I get enough +wis, eying the Mystic Belt at level 7 as soon as I can afford it at AH or convince a party to run with them.)

    I just don't have end-game perspective for my compulsive planning yet. I'm not quite sure how Rogue UMD + evasion vs Monk Martial Feats + evasion vs capstone works out. As far as I can tell from your responses, it seems to be a matter of taste.

    Thanks for the Aryenne guide; that looks very much so what I'm after. The only thing it seems to leave out is a discussion on what the first two lives should be in order to qualify for that 36 point build.

  11. #11
    Community Member Claymorep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Ferrara, Italy
    Posts
    348

    Default

    This tread likes me and I'll surely add what You need for what You want to do I'm in hurry for work now but it is clar that It will be a great and hard way what You want to do so start to think big and to delete your next year appointments

  12. #12
    Community Member Claymorep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Ferrara, Italy
    Posts
    348

    Default

    Ok, I've read with attention Your idea, but there are a lot of holes in your proposal.
    The build is very good and very effective, but not exactly the pally end-gamer.
    If You don't play epics it can go, but in epics You'll suffer to hit problems, no selfhealing as heal scrolls are too slow to cast and no way You can pass a concentration check 2 times on 3 as they hit a "bit" harder...

    +2 tomes and 32-36 points are near a must for a pally

    Goals:
    Top-End DPS = No way without pally capstone and to hit problems
    Self-sufficiency in epics/raids eventually = No way, you have 4 lay at your disposal, enought for 4 mobs (if taken separately)... Very good jolly in a party, but soloing is a bit too much for You.
    Survivability = Excellent. Pally combo of saving trows and evasion is near the best of the game. Add a lay when a healer is not so expert or too far and this will near outclass a monk without problems.
    Soloability = Very good if epics are not Your idea.
    Healing amplification? = More than sufficient.

    Answers:
    1) Is a very good build, especially in all raids (demons and devils are the same in the eyes of a kotc: all evil outsiders)
    2) Pally/monk is better for feats and you can reach top umd even without rogue skills. Personally I'll suggest p/m, but not so different and rogue can disable too so is a bit more complete. If I have to build a 18/2 spalshed 2 wf I'll do 18p/2m h/elf with dilettante rogue
    3) You need equip a lot of equip...
    Last edited by Claymorep; 07-26-2011 at 12:23 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default Hrm

    Thanks for the feedback, cap. To be clear:

    By "self-sufficiency" I mostly mean, "ability to patch self up in a bind when the healer is panicking." And yes, I realize that 4 LoH's does that pretty well already. If the rogue UMD difference isn't all that big a deal end-game, I can definitely see why the choice is mainly between cap'd pally and p18/2m.

    Why would you go h'elf/rogue dilettante, precisely? That interests me.

    And what would you recommend for epics, then, as I'm quite interested in doing those eventually.

  14. #14
    Community Member Claymorep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Ferrara, Italy
    Posts
    348

    Default

    The h/elf dilettante feat allow You to deal 3 extra d6 of damage while sneak attacking, so, for a dual wielder this is a great increase in dps and allow you to fill a bit of the gap with a full pally capstone.

    Umd can be reached with a splashed pally monk as all You require is to use:
    raise dead scrolls (umd 36)
    heal scrolls (umd 40 and I notice now that it is increased, as I remember that I was able to cast without problems before epic red armor in which I inserted +2 luck and now I have exaclty 39...)
    fire shield (umd 32)
    wands of blur and shield 10 (umd 38)
    optional wand of stoneskin (umd 32) if not a clicky
    So you can do your tests with these in mind.

    For epics about your build heal scrolls are near of no use as You don't have time to cast them and the "kisses" from 55 to 100 damages don't allow you to no fail a concentration check (you can be a real selfhealer with extend/maximize and torc for near infinite mana). You'll suffer to hit problems due the fact that You have 2 lower strenght, malus from 2wf and the best weapon You can use is the omnipresent Lit 2 that is a only a +5. You can mitigate the problem with O2wf, but You are low in feats... A solution is to use Epic spectral as standard item, but this will not allow You to use the best dps set (epic claw set) so You'll do less damage and no way to keep aggro if you need to tank unless You use intimidate or divine righteous.
    Moreover, except on bosses, You'll need to deal damage to some mobs at the same time or to be a massive dps build like a Horc thief, a blitz or a 2wf kensai or You'll find your dps outclassed by others without a real use for you and anyway low in hp. Infact in Epic Devil assault the best melee party is composed by a 2h pally, 1-2 2h whirlwind barbarians and a blitz or a rogue (not mentioning healer/casters).
    Last edited by Claymorep; 07-26-2011 at 05:02 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default Sold.

    Alright, I think I'm sold on the 2 monk. When I TR, I'll give that a go. Maybe I'll put in a life as a Barb or a fighter before going back pally again for the 36 point build. I might give the helf a shot, though I wonder why Junts didn't use that.

    One last question, Claymorep... why THF pally? I've yet to see an effective-looking build for them. Is it the better hit chance that makes them more favorable for epics?

    And thanks for the chart of UMD targets... that's absolutely priceless!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload