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  1. #41
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simo0208 View Post
    Sure, but leveling your character to the point of being able to craft that GLOB weapon will take vastly more resources than running shroud to craft a Min II.
    A Holy Burst of GLOB is also, as end-game gear progressions usually go, vastly more powerful than a MinII.

    And that leveling is per account, not per item. The more items you make with it, the more it gets amortized out.

    You can then make lots of GLOB weapons though, but the grind to get there is insane, unless of course, you live in your mom's basement and you're already level 100, then the point is moot.
    Yeah, the crafting grind should be reduced. But that only makes sense if the per-Shard goes up. If the devs are only willing to adjust one thing at a time, to give them time to consider how their changes have affected the beta testing, they would logically increase shard costs first, then look at reducing leveling costs. I'm cautiously optimistic they'll address leveling in U11.

    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    They aren't in the same neighborhood of utility, but they are in the same neighborhood of power against their targeted enemy.
    But we don't spend crafting resources on a per targeted enemy basis. If we could, with no significant cost, redirect our Banes, your point would hold. But we can't.

    We spend overall resources on a weapon. Overall utility is what matters.

    If you're looking at relative utility, then why are Greater Dragon Bane shards so expensive?
    Greater Dragon Bane is blatantly over-priced. I agree here.

  2. #42
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Compared to leveling, the added cost is trivial. Compared to the Raid loot it replaces, the added cost is trivial.

    It's no longer trivial to mass produce Greater Outsidde Bane Shards. But the per Shard cost is still entirely reasonable.
    Compared to leveling, a full Supreme Tyrant Greensteel weapon as an added cost is trivial.

    The per Shard cost isn't terrible if you leave out all of the other costs that go into crafting.

    The Shard of potential 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 that you have to make

    The Holy Burst plus the GEOB plus the +5 enhancement shard

    The Silver weapon

    Leveling to the low 90's in Divine and at least 60 in Arcane.

    Of all those costs, only the leveling can be amortized across several weapons. And just how many of these weapons are you going to make? Just how many level 20 characters do you have?

    If you have 10 capped characters and if half are TWF and half are THF, then you're looking at 15 +5 Holy Burst Silver [whatever] of Greater Evil Outisder Bane. Yes, that seems like a lot of weapons, but how many people actually have 10 capped characters in on each server? What percentage of the player base has more than 5 capped characters? What percentage of the player base even has more than 2 capped characters? I don't know what that number is either, but I do know it's not big.

  3. #43
    Community Member anto_capone's Avatar
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    It's still way too much to spend imo.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    They aren't in the same neighborhood of utility, but they are in the same neighborhood of power against their targeted enemy.
    Actually that I think is the problem.

    People are comparing the cost crafting a Min2 with the cost of crafting a +5 holy burst of greater bane.

    However, a Min2's DPS is roughly that of a +4 holy of (regular) bane, which is available in the 30s for crafting level, and only uses medium mats (a medium chain for LOB and a medium arrowhead for COB). The +5 holy burst of greater banes that everyone is comparing the Min2 to will actually do around 5-10% more DPS than the Min2 for THF, and somewhere in the vicinity of 10-15% more DPS for TWF, so they're quite a step up from Min2. The proper comparison should be how hard it is to craft a Min2 versus the crafting equivalent, level into the 30s and making the appropriate +4 holy of (regular) bane weapons.

    I don't see how it's supposed to be difficult to get into the 30s for crafting. I only started on crafting around 2 weeks before they shut down the thing and was in the 30s after a week. I've dumped elemental so far (focusing on arcane and divine to make those greater banes) and it's gotten to level 11 purely from decons in those two weeks.

    What the crafting system means, weapon-wise, is that casual players can now make weapons that are superior to what was previously considered end-game gear (Min2). This makes the end-game a lot more approachable to casuals. Previously, in order to make a Min2, you'd have to farm Shroud repeatedly (in theory, you could get the 24 large mats from the auction house, but that would require you to have millions of plat lying around -- so this is likely moot; also it requires shards from Shroud to enforce having done the raid). As mentioned before it involves a chicken-and-egg issue of not being able to raid due to not having raid gear, and not having raid gear due to not being able to raid. However, now you can just level up in crafting by deconning the junk you get from everyday questing. I wouldn't be surprised if casuals get into the 30s just from crafting before they get to Shroud levels, if players go the crafting hall regularly. The cost of making a +4 holy of (regular) bane is pretty insignificant to the cost of a Min2. So casuals can now easily make something that previously would have been faily difficult to come by.

    For powergamers, the crafting system means that those that want to devote the resources can make weapons significantly superior to the previous "GS standard" (there are, of course, exceptions -- as already noted, there is little reason to make a +5 holy burst of greater dragon bane if you already have a Lit2). Keep in mind though, that "significant" is a relative term. Powergamers of course will want to gain any little advantage, and be willing to put the effort into it, but I doubt a 10% difference in DPS is a make-or-break in most situations. Even so, people are arguing as if you have to level up exclusively using greater bane shards or something, when there's plenty of leveling shards in that range that are still the usual greater/lesser + khyber or siberys fragments. Leveling up is more or less just as easy as it was before; however, it's when you want to make those powerful shards (i.e. greater banes) that you'll need those more specific items.

    The argument is put forth that crafting makes it harder for casuals, but it actually makes the game a lot more approachable for casuals, and introduces a new carrot for powergamers. I don't see why the new carrot is supposed to be something that everyone is supposed to achieve as a given (consider this: prior to cannith crafting, what would have been the price for a +5 holy burst silver khopesh of greater lawful outsider bane? Yet now people are complaining that it costs a large scale to make one -- note the title of this thread). As with many things in real life, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. Instead, people blow it all out of proportion like saying it's for people that "live in your mom's basement". Uh huh. The highest-level crafters in our guild all have jobs, kids, etc., yet they took the time to figure out the system and level up in their free time outside of raids. Complaining that it's hard to do when there's plenty of others that are willing to invest in the system during their busy lives show it's stemming from a lack of effort, not opportunity.

    With the absence of XP decay, getting to the higher levels is just a matter of time. Whether you get there quickly or slowly is just a matter of how much time you spend playing and how much effort you put into the crafting system.

  5. #45
    Community Member anto_capone's Avatar
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    How are people who havent already maxed out crafting levels before this change supposed to afford to level in crafting now?

    Just seems a bit much to bother with no?

  6. #46
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Actually that I think is the problem.

    People are comparing the cost crafting a Min2 with the cost of crafting a +5 holy burst of greater bane.

    However, a Min2's DPS is roughly that of a +4 holy of (regular) bane, which is available in the 30s for crafting level, and only uses medium mats (a medium chain for LOB and a medium arrowhead for COB). The +5 holy burst of greater banes that everyone is comparing the Min2 to will actually do around 5-10% more DPS than the Min2 for THF, and somewhere in the vicinity of 10-15% more DPS for TWF, so they're quite a step up from Min2. The proper comparison should be how hard it is to craft a Min2 versus the crafting equivalent, level into the 30s and making the appropriate +4 holy of (regular) bane weapons.

    I don't see how it's supposed to be difficult to get into the 30s for crafting. I only started on crafting around 2 weeks before they shut down the thing and was in the 30s after a week. I've dumped elemental so far (focusing on arcane and divine to make those greater banes) and it's gotten to level 11 purely from decons in those two weeks.
    I do agree that getting to crafting level 30 is easy. Crafting level 30 requires 2655 crafting XP and you can use dirt cheap recipes to earn those XP. Getting to crafting level 60 requires 15838 crafting XP and the leveling shards that you need to craft to get there starts to get a little expensive part way through. Getting to crafting level 90 requires close to 40,000 crafting XP and the cost per point of XP gets fairly painful as you approach 90 just because most of the shards that are available at that level are quite expensive.

    I do think that anyone who wants to play in the Shroud can reasonably get to crafting level 30 without any enormous sacrifices. Those same players were still running Shroud with +1 Metalline of Pure Good weapons before Cannith crafting was around and that worked just fine too. At least some of the people running Shroud had MinII weapons and that was plenty. The PUGs that I was in went two rounds in part 4 a lot more often than we do today, but I haven't seen any increase in the odds of completion today compared to 2010 and 2009.

    Obviously, Turbine wants casual players to get those +3 Holy of Lawful Outsider Bane weapons easily. But it's an exponential climb from 30 to 90. And the reward that you get for hitting 90 or 100 in crafting today seems pretty similar to the reward that Over Raided got for hitting guild level 100. You get to feel good about your achievement, but it doesn't really add anything to your gameplay.

  7. #47
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Sounds reasonable.


    1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

    Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?
    Totally agreed

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Last thing I think the game needs is MORE reasons to run the shroud with level 20 toons.
    This. They should have completely left out the Shroud ingredients and went with large numbers of the grossly ignored collectibles that we already have in game.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

  9. #49
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    This. They should have completely left out the Shroud ingredients and went with large numbers of the grossly ignored collectibles that we already have in game.
    You don't need to run the Shroud.

    Large Ingredients (and boot ingredients) drop in Amrath, which is the current end-game non-epic content.
    So your level 20's can run level 20 content to get the ingredients.

  10. #50
    Community Member Rumbaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puget View Post
    Crafting in it's current form has gone from what the devs claimed they wanted, that being for all player styles to be able to get good gear they can use, to being set up on a pedestal so high the only player style that is going to be able to use it to it's fullest is the elite player that can farm the required ings to do the crafting.

    Not to mention the fact that the same players that have already leveled their crafting will just start selling all this to other players.
    This is the point I tried to make in a few previous crafting threads. Where the Madfloyd made the comment and concern that people had capped their crafting levels the next day of release.

    The resources available to those early adopters isn't available anymore and wasn't sustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by anto_capone View Post
    How are people who havent already maxed out crafting levels before this change supposed to afford to level in crafting now?

    Just seems a bit much to bother with no?
    I know, I got mine to 30/30/30 and well now it's going to take a lot more resources. I've got all content, but, gathering resources is the issue now. But eventually I'll cap, I'm sure.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Thargnar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post

    It's not obsolete if it still well worth making. And pre-Cannith, MinIIs were well worth making. Remember that LitIIs and MinIIs came out at exactly the same time. If LitIIs obsoleted MinIIs, then MinIIs were always obsolete.
    The LitII didn't obsolete the MinII, but it did eclipse it when they nerfed transmuting because the massive versatility of the MinII went down the drain and it was relegated to slicing, piercing, or crushing DR Breaker with an elemental damage most endgame content resisted, after the endgame was expanded past 16.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Noelemahc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Sounds reasonable.


    1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

    Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?
    It's not supposed to be easy to get. However, you have to raid to get those correct? It was explicitly stated that crafting was supposed to be a way for players to obtain good raid-loot comparable gear without having to raid. By putting raid loot in crafting recipes, those statements that have been made redundant over and over become absolutely false. Crafting is no longer a means to obtain gear as an alternative to raiding. Now it is a means for yet another absolutely unnecessary grind and forces you to raid in order to make the best items.

    Is 1 scale better than 5 for a Min 2? Absolutely. However that is not the point. The point is what I just said above. Crafting was preached over and over to be available to the average every day Joe as an alternative to raiding, yet now you have to raid in order to make the good weapons. I agree the banes should be more expensive some how. I don't agree they should include raid loot in them by principle. By including raid loot in recipes, that is going against everything they have told us that crafting is supposed to be. In other words, it's a blatant lie.

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  13. #53
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelemahc View Post
    It's not supposed to be easy to get. However, you have to raid to get those correct? It was explicitly stated that crafting was supposed to be a way for players to obtain good raid-loot comparable gear without having to raid. By putting raid loot in crafting recipes, those statements that have been made redundant over and over become absolutely false. Crafting is no longer a means to obtain gear as an alternative to raiding. Now it is a means for yet another absolutely unnecessary grind and forces you to raid in order to make the best items.

    Is 1 scale better than 5 for a Min 2? Absolutely. However that is not the point. The point is what I just said above. Crafting was preached over and over to be available to the average every day Joe as an alternative to raiding, yet now you have to raid in order to make the good weapons. I agree the banes should be more expensive some how. I don't agree they should include raid loot in them by principle. By including raid loot in recipes, that is going against everything they have told us that crafting is supposed to be. In other words, it's a blatant lie.
    No, you don't have to raid.
    Shroud ingredients drop in Amrath quests( as mentioned in several posts around the forums)
    No raiding necessary.
    So it's kinda the opposite of a lie,blatant or otherwise.
    Last edited by Khurse; 07-25-2011 at 06:35 PM.

  14. #54
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    Oh my goodness, so much to say.

    First, it's so not the cost of the actual item that is the real issue, but of leveling. Personal experience, costs amount to about 1 million plat to get to about level 40 in crafting. That was me NOT spending plat, simply not selling loot. How do I know it was 1 million?

    When I started crafting-got to level 40, about 2 weeks and no plat in the bank

    Then crafting was shut down. I sold everything I got from quests, bought stuff during that time (since I had so much plat) and ended with about 1 million plat.

    So 1 million is REALLY conservative. Probably more wasted. (See final point)

    Second issue, ML. The items, now that they can't really be reused by adding new shards, means you either make a new set of items at every level (and doing what with the others? banking them would fill our banks in days, selling is a shame) OR you only make items for end game (then it's not very casual...). And of course, with greensteel at level 11 and 12, the items we have WILL outshine all those Holy Burst Silver Khopeshes of Greater blah blah blah. Because the 10%-15% extra DPS over a Min II isn't real if you can't even use that item until level 20.

    Third issue, IT ISN'T EASIER THAN SHROUD RUNS. Really.

    The shroud is ALWAYS up, REALLY EASY, and YOU GET PLAT. I get about 10k plat per run. And yeah, I even farm it (not for ingredients, but for plat, yeah, DDooring isn't all that bad). After about 7 runs per 4 capped toons, 1 day equals a few tier 2 items, and half a million plat. Your all thinking, "but who has the time?" I did that in the same amount of time it took to crush all those f'n items to level my canith crafting to 40!

    Final point. People SERIOUSLY underestimate how long it took to deconstruct, construct shards, etc., and SERIOUSLY underestimate the costs. Time=Plat people. So, you are NOT making money, NOT having fun, and NOT getting the best raid loot you can. In the hours, if not days, spend in the crafting hall, we could have been playing the game and making things.



    So, what do I think about all this? In the end I love it.

    It was just the plat sink this game drastically needed. Instead of making infinite plat as all virtual economies do, they put something that will, instead of making money, waste your time and eat up all your loot. The prices of everything will come down, those of us who continue to trash loot (as I plan to do now) will have lots of plat to buy whatever we want, and those of you who continue to craft will have shards, twink gear, and full banks slots. And everyone will be happy.

    And, of course there are positives to crafting too. Once you get to level 125, or whatever the cap is, you are in essence done. You can now swindle people out of their money by making them items of the same quality as raid gear, possibly real life money, because turbine hasn't thought of that yet. It will happen, it probably already has.

  15. #55
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelemahc View Post
    It's not supposed to be easy to get. However, you have to raid to get those correct? It was explicitly stated that crafting was supposed to be a way for players to obtain good raid-loot comparable gear without having to raid.
    You don't have to Raid to get an LDS. Elite/Epic DA, and Amrath quests drop them. And they're readily available for a wide variety of trade items, from plat to Ioun stones to Epic scrolls.

  16. #56
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    My problem with this is it leads to an even larger supply of bones.

    If the recipe requires several bones instead of 1 devil scale it would do a lot to balance out the demand of shroud ingredients.

  17. #57
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    /signed

    20 bones per Greater Bane shard!

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukt View Post
    My problem with this is it leads to an even larger supply of bones.

    If the recipe requires several bones instead of 1 devil scale it would do a lot to balance out the demand of shroud ingredients.
    This. I've crafted several greensteel items/weapons and it's always looking for / trying to buy that last scale while despairingly glancing at the pile of bones high enough to put a skeleton in every Stormreach closet and enough chains to haunt Scrooge 20 times over

  19. #59
    Community Member Noelemahc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    No, you don't have to raid.
    Shroud ingredients drop in Amrath quests( as mentioned in several posts around the forums)
    No raiding necessary.
    So it's kinda the opposite of a lie,blatant or otherwise.
    They drop at incredibly low rates, from smalls to larges. The ingredients that drop from chests are completely random, and you rarely, if ever, get ingredients from chests. The drop rate in Amrath is so low it's not a reliable source for ingredients. I have never pulled, or seen anyone else pull, large scales from the regular Amrath quests. I have rarely ever seen large scales from ToD and those are a very, very rare occurrence. I've only seen 2 ever in 2 years of doing ToD (which doesn't count because it's a raid). That means doing Shroud is the only "reliable" way to obtain them, meaning you have to raid in order to realistically make that item.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    And they're readily available for a wide variety of trade items, from plat to Ioun stones to Epic scrolls.
    They are available for trade if you have other ball busting items for trade yes. However to obtain those items that break said balls, you have to grind epics or pray to whatever God you pray to that you luck in to an ioun stone. That still yet leaves the semi-casual player hanging, which is what this system was intended for.

    You have to remember, not everyone is a hardcore player who is on for 6-8 hours a day and has nothing but an abundance of time to farm epics religiously for hours on end in hopes of lucking in to something they could possibly use toward trading for a Large Scale. That is the point I'm trying to make.

    I don't care if you can happen to get a Large scale every 1 out of 5,000 Amrath quests. I don't care that you can trade for them if you are a hardcore player with a big bank account. The point is that the crafting system was supposed to be accessible to the less hardcore player group as a means of making good quality loot as an alternative to raiding. The rationality that large scales or demon blood is "easy" to obtain if you have incredible luck or a fat wallet only holds true for a small percentage of the player population. You are that minority.

    Running Shroud every day I got an average of 1 large scale a week, some times less. I'm not by any means a casual player. I have pulled 0 large scales in amrath quests in 2 years. I've pulled 2 demon blood in amrath quests in 2 years. Now have a casual player set out to do the same. They won't be able to run shroud every day. They won't have time to farm amrath for 6-8 hours a day hoping they might luck in to 1 ingredient. This system was said it wasn't intended to be a major grind, yet for the "average" player it is. Thus, the system has failed.

    Let's be honest, +2 and +1d6 damage isn't so game breaking it requires that type of grind. Especially for the people this system was mainly targeted for. I agree the really good stuff should be challenging to acquire. Not a never ending near-pointless grind. Something challenging would be having to fight a mob or do a quest that is really difficult to beat. That mob or quest would push you to the limit and there would be some sense of achievement and satisfaction when you get your reward, like a large scale. That would be challenging and appropriate. Currently you have to run the same content and fights hundreds or thousands of times that are not difficult in the least. That isn't challenging at all; it's repetitive, boring, dull, and more along the lines of violating the 8th amendment.
    Last edited by Noelemahc; 07-26-2011 at 04:49 AM.

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  20. #60
    Community Member Templarion's Avatar
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    Leveling costs are too high even the actual item cost is correct.

    Nothing new here (said already in this thread). Just wanted to say my opinion.

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