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  1. #21
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    When crafting first appeared, I thought it had a great deal of potential. Being a software engineer, the first thing I did was build a model of the leveling system, and then wrote a program that calculated the optimal path to use to level. One of the side effects of that is that I know fairly precisely what the costs are, both starting at level 1 and from the current crafting levels I have (75/62/46). The current system doesn't have a leveling path that doesn't make me laugh (or scream, depending upon the mood that I'm in.)
    Are you saying that it is impossible to level via Unbound and no-rare-items Bound shards? Or that the essence cost is simply massive? The shards that had rare items added weren't exactly the cheapest shards to begin with, so I'm confused why this makes such a big change.

    When you're simulating leveling, do you go for 50% chance shards, or always stick with 100%?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    This is important to remember. Cannith Crafting should significantly reduce the number of MinIIs that get made, which reduces the demand for LDSes in GS crafting. The new Scale requirement is partially replacing a now slackened demand, not raising the pre-Cannith demand even higher.
    Agree. I dont mind the cost of making the final weapon. As people have said, the cost is much less than making a min II

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilI View Post
    The real question I want answered though, is: Will you loose your LDS upon a failed crafting attempt? Let's just say I'm not going to be the one to work out if that is the case...
    I have bad luck - this is a scary thought. Even if the success rate is 90%, I am sure I will fail the first attempt. Just how it works for me.

    I have leveled my crafting levels to around 5 and stopped. Making the end product is not too expensive for me, but I play DDO with my limited time to kill monsters. I am not paying a VIP sub to stand infront of an alter for hours on end pulling a lever. I'd much rather farm the same quest for hours on end for that loot I need, even if that is only slightly less boring.

  3. #23
    Community Member puget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    For the most part, I don't see any problems with the ingredient requirements for the creation of items you actually plan on using. The problem in crafting design is that leveling your crafting skill requires the creation of an endless stream of junk shards, many of which now require greensteel ingredients, purified Eberron dragonshards, and other relatively rare items.

    This is a broken system for the vast majority of players who don't live in their mother's basement.

    The 5 year anniversary party was a major success in drawing people back to the game. Cannith Crafting needed to be the follow up that kept that momentum alive. Instead, it has consistently failed to provide a challlenging yet reasonable activity in what is meant to be a GAME, not a JOB.

    One needs to look no further than the plummeting value of essences to see that more and more people are opting out of crafting. And with nothing new to amuse them, more and more people are opting to find something other than DDO to fill their recreational time.

    At this time last year, the Cannith server was booming with activity. Yesterday, it was so deserted I had to resort to doing my yard work. My neighbors thank the DDO developers -- I do not.

    If this is really the developers attempt at finally getting the crafting system right, they need to rethink what makes people want to play this game, and do so quickly.

    You mowed your lawn too yesterday instead of playing the game? I agree with every point you raised.

  4. #24
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    1 scale is too cheap. Raid-quality loot should require you to run raids.
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  5. #25
    Community Member puget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doganpc View Post
    Like an Arm or a Leg.

    Dogan
    What we really need is endgame that doesn't rely upon evil outsiders

    Isn't it time to move on....Maybe a raid boss that is a rust monster? Or a spider that lays an egg every time it gets damaged?

  6. #26
    Community Member Ookami007's Avatar
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    But why must they use THE MOST RARE raid ingredient?! LDS are the most sought after ingredient.

    They could just as easily have made it 3 medium devil scales.... or 5 small devil scales.

    It's the same raid. They still have to buy the same pack.
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  7. #27
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ookami007 View Post
    But why must they use THE MOST RARE raid ingredient?! LDS are the most sought after ingredient.
    In terms of price, Flawless Reds have it beat.

    They could just as easily have made it 3 medium devil scales.... or 5 small devil scales.
    Utterly meaningless costs.

    The whole point of using an LDS is that it's a cost that actually has meaning. It's not about what packs it comes from; mediums and smalls are simply not worth anything.

  8. #28
    Community Member puget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ookami007 View Post
    But why must they use THE MOST RARE raid ingredient?! LDS are the most sought after ingredient.

    They could just as easily have made it 3 medium devil scales.... or 5 small devil scales.

    It's the same raid. They still have to buy the same pack.

    Agreed.

  9. #29
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Sounds reasonable.


    1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

    Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?
    And Greater Halfling Bane looks like an incredible bargain now that it doesn't require a Chattering Ring, right?

    The fact that a kick in the groin is less bad than a gunshot wound to the chest doesn't make me actually enjoy a kick in the groin.

  10. #30
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    And Greater Halfling Bane looks like an incredible bargain now that it doesn't require a Chattering Ring, right?

    The fact that a kick in the groin is less bad than a gunshot wound to the chest doesn't make me actually enjoy a kick in the groin.
    Out of curiousity, what ARE the ingredients for Greater Halfling Bane now?

    And are we getting Epic Purge the Heretics in which to use it?
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Sounds reasonable.


    1 Scale instead of 5 is still a bargain.

    Or make a regular Bane if you don't want to spend for the top-tier loot. Since when is the best gear supposed to be easy to get?
    While I understand your sentiment and agree, I have to say this (using LDS) was a head-scratcher from the devs, for me. For a game which has been creative in its efforts to find new ways to make players grind, I don't understand having to grind a single valuable commodity even more. I think other creative solutions could have been implemented - hey, perhaps even a different large ingredient.

    I guess it doesn't really matter though, anyone who is high enough level to craft greater banes is probably not short on LDSs anyway.
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  12. #32
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    And Greater Halfling Bane looks like an incredible bargain now that it doesn't require a Chattering Ring, right?

    The fact that a kick in the groin is less bad than a gunshot wound to the chest doesn't make me actually enjoy a kick in the groin.
    5 is the number of LDSes a MinII takes. A Lawful/Evil Outsider Bane Shard is a major component of making a weapon that vastly out-damages a MinII vs. the enemies MinIIs are primarily crafted to use against.

    The comparison is between the weapon that costs 1 LDS, and the weapon it basically renders obsolete except in very obscure cases (like a melee with no Imp. Crit), which costs 5 LDS.

    I'm not comparing the current patch with the absurd patch we got previewed. I'm comparing actual weapons available on Live with actual weapons available on Live.

    Honestly, since when is having to earn items in an MMO a "kick in the groin"? If you want to complain, complain about the leveling you need to make Greater Banes. Complaining about the LDS is just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian14 View Post
    Out of curiousity, what ARE the ingredients for Greater Halfling Bane now?
    Halfling soul gem, and maybe Halfling Slaying Arrows, if I recall correctly.

  13. #33
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian14 View Post
    Out of curiousity, what ARE the ingredients for Greater Halfling Bane now?

    And are we getting Epic Purge the Heretics in which to use it?
    15 Greater Fire Essences
    192 Lesser Fire Essences
    3 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments (1/3 of a +2 Tome)
    3 Strong Soul Gems: Halfling (I don't even know where to find a 30 HD Halfling)
    20 Halfling Slaying Arrows

    Which makes a Large Devil's Scale and a Demon's Blood even more rediculous in comparison.

  14. #34
    Community Member anto_capone's Avatar
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    To think that because of my rotten luck, I've been grinding for large scales for the past 3 months now just to finish one set of weapons on my TWF...

    All this time spent, and people are throwing the things away to gain crafting xp.

    Ah well..

  15. #35
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    5 is the number of LDSes a MinII takes. A Lawful/Evil Outsider Bane Shard is a major component of making a weapon that vastly out-damages a MinII vs. the enemies MinIIs are primarily crafted to use against.
    And a Min II is a real raid-level weapon that actually works well against just about every enemy in the game.

    The only time that a crafted weapon of any type stacks up favorably against a greensteel weapon that someone would actually craft is when you compare the narrow focused Holy/Holy Burst/Bane/Greater Bane weapons. Every other crafted weapon is just unimpressive in every way.

    The comparison is between the weapon that costs 1 LDS, and the weapon it basically renders obsolete except in very obscure cases (like a melee with no Imp. Crit), which costs 5 LDS.
    But the Cannith crafted weapons aren't what rendered the MinII obsolete. LitII rendered MinII obsolete except against a small handful of raid bosses. The Cannith Crafted greater banes just took away the one niche where MinII was still the king of the hill.



    Honestly, since when is having to earn items in an MMO a "kick in the groin"? If you want to complain, complain about the leveling you need to make Greater Banes. Complaining about the LDS is just silly.
    I was comparing the 10.1/10.2 live release to the 10.1 Llama-land release there. And I guarantee that if they hadn't had things like Dreamspitters and Chattering Rings in the list for the 10.1 preview, people would be frothing at the mouth and howling for blood over what actually ended up going live.

    But since we have the absoutlely absurd costs as a baseline for our expectations, the costs that are currently in 10.1/10.2 live (that are merely rediculous instead of completely absurd) don't seem so bad to most people.

    And I'm absolutely adding in the leveling that you need to make Greater Banes. That's part of the cost because you can't make Greater Banes without it. I don't mind the idea of having to consume as much loot as I did to get my crafting levels as long as there was something worthwhile waiting for me at the end. When Turbine dials up the costs of the rewards that we get for running on the Cannith crafting hamster wheel, though, that is pretty irritating.

    Either make the leveling less painful (too late for that now) or make the crafting mostly painless once you get to that crafting level. I don't mind having to pay on the front end and I don't mind having to pay on the back end. I do mind having to pay on the front end with the expectation of getting a cheap back end and then having that switched as soon as I actually get to the back end.


    Edit: one other thing that bothers me (that I forgot to mention) is the fact that you now have to get very close to crafting level 93 in order to craft the level 93 shard unless you want to just throw the Demon's Blood/Large Scale/Purified Pay To Win tokens in the trash. ESPECIALLY since the crafting hammers that you can buy in the DDO store don't even work correctly. That means you'll need 40,000 crafting XP instead of 32,000 crafting XP. That extra 8000 crafting XP is REALLY expensive when you're using level 85-90ish recipes to get XP.
    Last edited by gloopygloop; 07-25-2011 at 05:14 PM.

  16. #36
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    Which makes a Large Devil's Scale and a Demon's Blood even more rediculous in comparison.
    Only if you think Greater Evil Outsider Bane and Greater Halfling Bane are even remotely in the same ballpark of utility.

    The crafting system doesn't exist in a vacuum. Basing Shard price on their actual utility, within the game that currently exists, is entirely appropriate.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    5 is the number of LDSes a MinII takes. A Lawful/Evil Outsider Bane Shard is a major component of making a weapon that vastly out-damages a MinII vs. the enemies MinIIs are primarily crafted to use against.

    The comparison is between the weapon that costs 1 LDS, and the weapon it basically renders obsolete except in very obscure cases (like a melee with no Imp. Crit), which costs 5 LDS.

    I'm not comparing the current patch with the absurd patch we got previewed. I'm comparing actual weapons available on Live with actual weapons available on Live.

    Honestly, since when is having to earn items in an MMO a "kick in the groin"? If you want to complain, complain about the leveling you need to make Greater Banes. Complaining about the LDS is just silly.



    Halfling soul gem, and maybe Halfling Slaying Arrows, if I recall correctly.
    Sure, but leveling your character to the point of being able to craft that GLOB weapon will take vastly more resources than running shroud to craft a Min II.

    You can then make lots of GLOB weapons though, but the grind to get there is insane, unless of course, you live in your mom's basement and you're already level 100, then the point is moot.

  18. #38
    Community Member puget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simo0208 View Post
    Sure, but leveling your character to the point of being able to craft that GLOB weapon will take vastly more resources than running shroud to craft a Min II.

    You can then make lots of GLOB weapons though, but the grind to get there is insane, unless of course, you live in your mom's basement and you're already level 100, then the point is moot.
    And that is the crux of it right there. Those that already leveled to the point they can make these items and the argument that the cost is fair.

    I would say to the devs, when crafting comes out of BETA, reset ALL players crafting levels to 0/0/0 and then let's see the same people make the same lame arguments about the cost.

    Crafting in it's current form has gone from what the devs claimed they wanted, that being for all player styles to be able to get good gear they can use, to being set up on a pedestal so high the only player style that is going to be able to use it to it's fullest is the elite player that can farm the required ings to do the crafting.

    Not to mention the fact that the same players that have already leveled their crafting will just start selling all this to other players.

    I say get rid of ALL unbound shards. Every shard created should be BTA. and then reduce the cost of the ings needed to make the shards by taking the raid loot out of the recipe's, and then INCREASE the amount of essences needed to create the shards.

    IMO, unbound shards are going to be what destroys crafting and makes it unattainable for the majority. I have issues with BtC shards, there should be NONE, but they should ALL be BtA.

  19. #39
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Only if you think Greater Evil Outsider Bane and Greater Halfling Bane are even remotely in the same ballpark of utility.

    The crafting system doesn't exist in a vacuum. Basing Shard price on their actual utility, within the game that currently exists, is entirely appropriate.
    They aren't in the same neighborhood of utility, but they are in the same neighborhood of power against their targeted enemy.

    If you're looking at relative utility, then why are Greater Dragon Bane shards so expensive? Take a look at the damage that a Holy/Electric Burst/Electric Blast LitII weapon puts out compared to a +5 Holy Burst [whatever] of Greater Dragon Bane.

    But Turbine somehow still made the Greater Dragon Bane weapons inappropriately expensive, too.
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  20. #40
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    And a Min II is a real raid-level weapon that actually works well against just about every enemy in the game.
    And for the same cost, you can get a LitII which is far superior against nearly every enemy in the game.

    The only time that a crafted weapon of any type stacks up favorably against a greensteel weapon that someone would actually craft is when you compare the narrow focused Holy/Holy Burst/Bane/Greater Bane weapons. Every other crafted weapon is just unimpressive in every way.
    Hence the price increase on Holy Burst and Greater Banes. What are you arguing against?

    If anything, Holy Banes are still too cheap.

    But the Cannith crafted weapons aren't what rendered the MinII obsolete. LitII rendered MinII obsolete except against a small handful of raid bosses. The Cannith Crafted greater banes just took away the one niche where MinII was still the king of the hill.
    It's not obsolete if it still well worth making. And pre-Cannith, MinIIs were well worth making. Remember that LitIIs and MinIIs came out at exactly the same time. If LitIIs obsoleted MinIIs, then MinIIs were always obsolete.

    Cannith crafting removing the niche MinIIs always had made them obsolete.

    I was comparing the 10.1/10.2 live release to the 10.1 Llama-land release there. And I guarantee that if they hadn't had things like Dreamspitters and Chattering Rings in the list for the 10.1 preview, people would be frothing at the mouth and howling for blood over what actually ended up going live.
    I wouldn't be.

    And I'm absolutely adding in the leveling that you need to make Greater Banes. That's part of the cost because you can't make Greater Banes without it. I don't mind the idea of having to consume as much loot as I did to get my crafting levels as long as there was something worthwhile waiting for me at the end. When Turbine dials up the costs of the rewards that we get for running on the Cannith crafting hamster wheel, though, that is pretty irritating.
    Compared to leveling, the added cost is trivial. Compared to the Raid loot it replaces, the added cost is trivial.

    It's no longer trivial to mass produce Greater Outsidde Bane Shards. But the per Shard cost is still entirely reasonable.
    Last edited by dkyle; 07-25-2011 at 05:37 PM.

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