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  1. #1
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Default Still missing the point!

    With the advent of the 10.1 patch, I can only say that I am still disappointed with the crafting system. While some may say that they like the new ingredients required, I think it is outright stupid and punishes people for playing casually and saving money.

    First of all, I don't mind the idea of making the higher level crafting recipes more difficult. It needed to be done as more and more people are getting to higher level crafting levels and if everyone is wielding the perfect weapon in every scenario, it can be a problem for balance.

    And that is where my (insignificant amount of) praise stops.

    Turbine, you are still missing the point.

    I'm glad raid loot is off the recipes, but favor rewards?! Astral diamonds?! Purified dragon shards?! These things are clearly just pay to win to me. The haves and have nots will be determined by your willingness to purchase adventure packs and grind them over and over. As if the expenditure of resources to get to a high enough crafting level wasn't enough. Boot ingredients have horrible drop rates...and also require an expensive purchase. Large Devil Scales are the most needed ingredient in Shroud Crafting...and require an expensive purchase. But the worst thing of all is Silver Flame Pots! At least Shavarath and Vale packs are WORTH getting.

    Silver Flame Potions require you to have ALL of the Necro packs. And do almost ALL the quests on elite. Let me remind you that most consider Necro 1-3 to be among the worst purchases in the game.

    Turbine, I ask that you THINK for a little longer and TEST them to make sure it all works and makes sense!
    Again and again, you make changes that seem haphazard at best and implement them without a second thought.

    DDO is a great game and I enjoy playing it. But please, this is simply unprofessional to make brainless decisions under the guise of "beta".

  2. #2
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Again.
    Can a casual player make a +5 Holy Burst of greater bane? Not easily.

    Can they relatively easily make a +4 Holy of Bane? Yes.

    A +4 Holy (dr breaker) of Bane would have been huge a few months back. It's a very good weapon and will work perfectly fine for damage purposes.

  3. #3
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    Again.
    Can a casual player make a +5 Holy Burst of greater bane? Not easily.

    Can they relatively easily make a +4 Holy of Bane? Yes.

    A +4 Holy (dr breaker) of Bane would have been huge a few months back. It's a very good weapon and will work perfectly fine for damage purposes.
    MY point is that a casual/less hardcore player should not have to "settle" due to the fact that the recipes are difficult to make without having to spend more money.

    I get it.

    Casual/less hardcore players should be inherently less powerful than the hardcore. This is simple science of "you spend more time so you get more loot".

    But to add on to the fact that a player can spend as much time as they want with cannith crafting and not be able to craft the best things for not having paid enough money seems ridiculous.

    edit: actually the greater point of all of this is that Turbine shouldn't enact changes without more extensive testing and planning. There are tons of threads right now about how people can't even craft because slayer arrows don't fit in the machines...
    Last edited by AmatsukaIncarnate; 07-13-2011 at 11:52 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate View Post
    MY point is that a casual/less hardcore player should not have to "settle" due to the fact that the recipes are difficult to make without having to spend more money.

    I get it.

    Casual/less hardcore players should be inherently less powerful than the hardcore. This is simple science of "you spend more time so you get more loot".

    But to add on to the fact that a player can spend as much time as they want with cannith crafting and not be able to craft the best things for not having paid enough money seems ridiculous.
    You dont have to spend any money. If you dont want to grind, spend a little money to get some adventure packs.

    I dont see it as being unreasonable. You can also find a nice person to help you run through them on elite once, buy you a guest pass etc.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate View Post
    MY point is that a casual/less hardcore player should not have to "settle" due to the fact that the recipes are difficult to make without having to spend more money.

    I get it.

    Casual/less hardcore players should be inherently less powerful than the hardcore. This is simple science of "you spend more time so you get more loot".

    But to add on to the fact that a player can spend as much time as they want with cannith crafting and not be able to craft the best things for not having paid enough money seems ridiculous.

    edit: actually the greater point of all of this is that Turbine shouldn't enact changes without more extensive testing and planning. There are tons of threads right now about how people can't even craft because slayer arrows don't fit in the machines...
    I think the two points are separate. One can support the recipe changes but still be disappointed in the development cycle.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate View Post
    MY point is that a casual/less hardcore player should not have to "settle" due to the fact that the recipes are difficult to make without having to spend more money.

    I get it.

    Casual/less hardcore players should be inherently less powerful than the hardcore. This is simple science of "you spend more time so you get more loot".

    But to add on to the fact that a player can spend as much time as they want with cannith crafting and not be able to craft the best things for not having paid enough money seems ridiculous.
    Uhmm, what?

    If I put (for example) 10000 hours of play into the game, is it not acceptable that I have better stuff than someone who puts in 5?

    This sounds like the type of people who complain that they have to run Shroud to get greensteel, run Epics to get Epic level items,etc.

    The stuff is available to you, if you want to make the time to run quests,earn TPs, and run the content until you get the item.
    It's not like VIP's are being granted level 100 crafting because they're a VIP. They still have to get the ingredients and make it.

  7. #7
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    You dont have to spend any money. If you dont want to grind, spend a little money to get some adventure packs.

    I dont see it as being unreasonable. You can also find a nice person to help you run through them on elite once, buy you a guest pass etc.
    You say you don't have to spend any money. Yet the sentence after you say how you should spend a little money.

    Maybe you personally don't find it unreasonable. But buying multiple packs for the sole purpose of one recipe seems unreasonable doesn't it?

    And yes I agree. The points are separate. I'm just a little fed up with these crafting changes though.

  8. #8
    Community Member wonkey's Avatar
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    Very different from pay to win.

    Pay to win = stuff you can only get in the store

    This = Sure, you need to either pay, or build up TP through favor, to get access to parts of the game. But you are PLAYING to win. The stuff you are talking about is gained through playing quests. That's like saying that they can't put in good named items in adventure packs because that's pay to win.

    In fact, pointing out that the Necro quests are less valued means they're the perfect place to 'buff' in this way. Lots of people put a large focus on loot. It would be perfectly acceptable, from what I've heard, to most people, to buff the loot in less popular packs (this has been a common request for 3BC for some time). This is EXACTLY the same. You put in something that allows people to craft their own better loot.
    Not for everyone. But if you're looking for a fresh experience with a slower pace and tactical play, come check us out at www.mortalvoyage.us You might just like what you see...

  9. #9
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    Uhmm, what?

    If I put (for example) 10000 hours of play into the game, is it not acceptable that I have better stuff than someone who puts in 5?

    This sounds like the type of people who complain that they have to run Shroud to get greensteel, run Epics to get Epic level items,etc.

    The stuff is available to you, if you want to make the time to run quests,earn TPs, and run the content until you get the item.
    It's not like VIP's are being granted level 100 crafting because they're a VIP. They still have to get the ingredients and make it.
    I said that people who spend more time SHOULD have better stuff. Like I said, it's simple science "you spend more time = more loot".

    I'm saying that if two people spend the same amount of time on crafting, shouldn't they have access to the same recipes?

  10. #10
    Community Member wonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate View Post
    I said that people who spend more time SHOULD have better stuff. Like I said, it's simple science "you spend more time = more loot".

    I'm saying that if two people spend the same amount of time on crafting, shouldn't they have access to the same recipes?
    Simply? No.
    Because standing in front of the crafting machine is only part of the process. You need to get out into Xendrik and go find some materials. And, like named loot, certain materials are only fouind in certain locales.
    That's like saying that its not fair that someone should be able to get more materials, and cash, and better loot, from running high level content than someone spending the same time in the harbor.
    I mean, aren't they investing the same time???
    Not for everyone. But if you're looking for a fresh experience with a slower pace and tactical play, come check us out at www.mortalvoyage.us You might just like what you see...

  11. #11
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Because (as I see it) one has also spent more time playing the game.

    I don't see an issue with someone who has done more of the content- for whatever reason, to be able to craft better stuff.

    Don't get me wrong, the BTC items needed for crafting are stupid, and really should be moved to BTA (as they've said will happen) but I see nothing bad with the idea that the more content in the game you do, the more you can craft.

  12. #12
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonkey View Post
    Very different from pay to win.

    Pay to win = stuff you can only get in the store

    This = Sure, you need to either pay, or build up TP through favor, to get access to parts of the game. But you are PLAYING to win. The stuff you are talking about is gained through playing quests. That's like saying that they can't put in good named items in adventure packs because that's pay to win.

    In fact, pointing out that the Necro quests are less valued means they're the perfect place to 'buff' in this way. Lots of people put a large focus on loot. It would be perfectly acceptable, from what I've heard, to most people, to buff the loot in less popular packs (this has been a common request for 3BC for some time). This is EXACTLY the same. You put in something that allows people to craft their own better loot.
    I personally think pay to win also includes "things that are so rare in-game that you will want to simply spend money to buy on the store" :P

    Astral Diamonds for example. Say a free to play guild wanted to purchase a guild ship. The cheapest one, after trade-in, is 120 diamonds. Even if the guild has 20 active players, how long would it take for them to amass 120 diamonds?

    And the buff to the packs should be making the packs more fun to play...not to extend the crafting grind.

  13. #13
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    Because (as I see it) one has also spent more time playing the game.

    I don't see an issue with someone who has done more of the content- for whatever reason, to be able to craft better stuff.

    Don't get me wrong, the BTC items needed for crafting are stupid, and really should be moved to BTA (as they've said will happen) but I see nothing bad with the idea that the more content in the game you do, the more you can craft.
    Favor rewards will always be BTC won't they?

    I guess my issue with all of this is I saw crafting as a way to allow ftp/more casual players to make high class weapons.

  14. #14
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate View Post
    I'm saying that if two people spend the same amount of time on crafting, shouldn't they have access to the same recipes?
    No. Not really.

    Its all about trade off, and it dosent violate my basic rule of "You can still get it ingame". Crafting is only an alternative to other methods of loot retrieval. All of the crafting ingredients are available in game as loot, with one method or another. Any shards you cant make because you dont have the item can still be bought from another player.

    There is nothing that restricts a casual player in the new crafting system that hasnt always restricted casual players. If anything, the new crafting system exactly follows your phrase "spend more time, get more loot."
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
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  15. #15
    Community Member wonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmatsukaIncarnate View Post
    I personally think pay to win also includes "things that are so rare in-game that you will want to simply spend money to buy on the store" :P

    Astral Diamonds for example. Say a free to play guild wanted to purchase a guild ship. The cheapest one, after trade-in, is 120 diamonds. Even if the guild has 20 active players, how long would it take for them to amass 120 diamonds?

    And the buff to the packs should be making the packs more fun to play...not to extend the crafting grind.
    'Fun to play' doesn't seem to be the only major factor in determining if people want to play, oddly enough.
    For example, feedback I've seen on the forums says that 3BC is lots of fun, with good ambience, and interesting quests, but noone plays in it because the loot sucks, and the xp isn't that great.

    Buffing an unpopular pack with better loot, even if that 'loot' is indirect and crafting materials, seems perfectly reasonable to me.
    Not for everyone. But if you're looking for a fresh experience with a slower pace and tactical play, come check us out at www.mortalvoyage.us You might just like what you see...

  16. #16
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    No. Not really.

    Its all about trade off, and it dosent violate my basic rule of "You can still get it ingame". Crafting is only an alternative to other methods of loot retrieval. All of the crafting ingredients are available in game as loot, with one method or another. Any shards you cant make because you dont have the item can still be bought from another player.

    There is nothing that restricts a casual player in the new crafting system that hasnt always restricted casual players. If anything, the new crafting system exactly follows your phrase "spend more time, get more loot."
    I disagree. Because the crafting ingredients aren't all things you can buy from another player. The old system allowed a casual player to eventually reach the highest levels of crafting with time expenditure over a course of a long time.

    I've been crafting since the beginning and reached level 40. I don't expect to be able to craft any of the high end any time soon. Far from that. But I don't want to reach a level and realize the only way up is to spend money.

    @wonkey, I don't like the indirect. Mainly since crafting, under my impression, was ftp. I just wanted crafting to be a lot more free. (And about 3BC, I've heard it wasn't much fun at all. Something about ladder jumping that was frustrating or whatever.)
    Last edited by AmatsukaIncarnate; 07-13-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I hasn't saw all the required ingriedients, but I can say that I'm almost glad I got use for epic tokens, as most of epic items are not good for my builds, and most of their auguments are worth a laugh.

    I hate silver flame pot. It is useful only to figthers and barbs, cos they got no other self healing, and useless to anyone else. Not to mention that watching drones farming minerals and vespene gas is less boring than piking necro 1-3 on leet.

    Poor players who decided to make their bank toons crafters out of fear from possible change in TR/crafting rules.
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  18. #18
    Hero LordPiglet's Avatar
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    The best gear should require a time investment.

    One Large scale and a silver flame pot (the favor of which can probably be earned in far less time then it takes to get 5 larges for a min II) to make +4/5 holy burst of greater lawful outsider bane is too much?

    That's far far far less then it takes to build a min II or lit II.

  19. #19
    Hero Dark_Uncle72's Avatar
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    What's that saying... ?

    "You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
    "I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied...
    Learn to swim..."

    "This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality
    Embrace this moment, remember, we are eternal
    All this pain is an illusion"

  20. #20
    Community Member AmatsukaIncarnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordPiglet View Post
    The best gear should require a time investment.

    One Large scale and a silver flame pot (the favor of which can probably be earned in far less time then it takes to get 5 larges for a min II) to make +4/5 holy burst of greater lawful outsider bane is too much?

    That's far far far less then it takes to build a min II or lit II.
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=328164

    For casual players, good luck getting into an elite Abbot run.

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