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  1. #81
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Well I almost walked away from this thread due to the flames but Im going to state a sentiment that I feel sums up what is being thrown back and forth here.

    I only came back after reading the comment Blank made about the Devs messing up the crafting system which yes if you base on 10.1 and all the issues it was a mistake made but in all the system is still something people flocked to I wouldnt call it a complete disaster. And I think the devs are fully capable of putting in a PVP system that no way affects our PVE world I believe that they are fallible they make mistakes but if they were incompetent we would not have a game to be here henpecking and griping about.

    I look at it this way we who have no interest in pvp have fears we dont want our game changing completely to something else. Its understandable I know the mindset because I had it. But the game has changed over the years it is not the same out of the box Beta it was back in 2006 and now that weve opened the doors to Free to play we are bringing in new blood and new ways to approach the game. New blood and play styles are not a bad thing, I think that if they do focus on any PVP revamps and keep it separate from our PVE based game then we need to stop barking about it not being needed.

    More player options equal more players more players more revenue more revenue means a couple years down the road we still have a game to argue with each other over. I am not a pvp person before any of you get that I have played pvp games but I mostly love ddo because its not a focus. But to say there is no room I cant do that any more I think there can be a medium and that medium can help our game continue to grow and flourish and I will not call our devs competence into question about if they can do it. Yeah they make mistakes but at least they are trying for us the gamers.
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  3. #83
    Community Member heyytoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Well I almost walked away from this thread due to the flames but Im going to state a sentiment that I feel sums up what is being thrown back and forth here.

    I only came back after reading the comment Blank made about the Devs messing up the crafting system which yes if you base on 10.1 and all the issues it was a mistake made but in all the system is still something people flocked to I wouldnt call it a complete disaster. And I think the devs are fully capable of putting in a PVP system that no way affects our PVE world I believe that they are fallible they make mistakes but if they were incompetent we would not have a game to be here henpecking and griping about.

    I look at it this way we who have no interest in pvp have fears we dont want our game changing completely to something else. Its understandable I know the mindset because I had it. But the game has changed over the years it is not the same out of the box Beta it was back in 2006 and now that weve opened the doors to Free to play we are bringing in new blood and new ways to approach the game. New blood and play styles are not a bad thing, I think that if they do focus on any PVP revamps and keep it separate from our PVE based game then we need to stop barking about it not being needed.

    More player options equal more players more players more revenue more revenue means a couple years down the road we still have a game to argue with each other over. I am not a pvp person before any of you get that I have played pvp games but I mostly love ddo because its not a focus. But to say there is no room I cant do that any more I think there can be a medium and that medium can help our game continue to grow and flourish and I will not call our devs competence into question about if they can do it. Yeah they make mistakes but at least they are trying for us the gamers.
    PvP has great potential in this game.

    This remind me of a review i saw on MMORPG.com (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...-Ripper-X.html) where the guy talks about the game and khortos stuff... but at the end all he talks about is pvp.

    I'm prety sure he was very dissapointed when he really got to a tavern but you know.. This just prove that there is a market for PvP in ddo.

    And well Kalari pretty much sums up what I wanted to say

    I PvP all the time and i would never want any change to PvE. However there's place for improvment for PvP.... LOT of place!
    Last edited by heyytoi; 07-16-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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  4. #84
    Community Member Lyzern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyytoi View Post
    PvP has great potential in this game.

    This remind me of a review i saw on MMORPG.com (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...-Ripper-X.html) where the guy talks about the game and khortos stuff... but at the end all he talks about is pvp.

    I'm prety sure he was very dissapointed when he really got to a tavern but you know.. This just prove that there is a market for PvP in ddo.

    And well Kalari pretty much sums up what I wanted to say

    I PvP all the time and i would never want any change to PvE. However there's place for improvment for PvP.... LOT of place!
    Most games have a PvP system that differenciates PvE from PvP.
    Examples:
    - A Knockback spell would only work in PvE
    - A Sleep spell would have 1/3 duration in PvP
    - All damage would be reduced by 50% in PvP

    Stuff like that.
    But there's a problem with PvP in MMORPGs, most of them have rewards for PvP and such, so people start focusing a lot on PvP, getting angry, QQing, raging and so the community starts rotting. Then there's the cash shop problem, adding PvP items to the chas shop so turbine gets more $ and CSers will overpower F2Pers. Finally, the difference between a Lv. 4 Completionist Warforged Wizard to a lv. 4 regular human Wizard is so huge that the poor human wiz would die before he even sees what's going on.
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  5. #85
    Hall of Famer & Hero DoctorWhofan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyzern View Post
    But there's a problem with PvP in MMORPGs, most of them have rewards for PvP and such, so people start focusing a lot on PvP, getting angry, QQing, raging and so the community starts rotting. Then there's the cash shop problem, adding PvP items to the chas shop so turbine gets more $ and CSers will overpower F2Pers. Finally, the difference between a Lv. 4 Completionist Warforged Wizard to a lv. 4 regular human Wizard is so huge that the poor human wiz would die before he even sees what's going on.
    And that is reasons why PvP shouldn't be developed for this game. But that is neither here or there. I am ok leaving it alone as is, well mostly (chat please) for now. DDO is a difficult game to balance, plus having to worry about it being true to 3.5 probably has alot of extra stress on the developers.

    And if PvP ends up being added, and the things you say are changed (rewards, etc.) that WILL effect PvE. It will change where Turbine puts its development dollars. I think that is is the biggest wall to having PvP here.

    I am ok with minor changes, another tavern brawl some new arenas, that's fine. That doesn't take a whole lot of dev time to do, but major changes do. SO, back to the OP, yes, it is good just the way it is.
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  6. #86
    Community Member Lyzern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorWhofan View Post
    I am ok with minor changes, another tavern brawl some new arenas, that's fine. That doesn't take a whole lot of dev time to do, but major changes do. SO, back to the OP, yes, it is good just the way it is.

    Same. But I think we shouldn't worry about any of this since Turbine doesn't seem to pay attention to PvP.
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  7. #87
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Honestly I think the challenge quests that have been talked about are the way to go for those who are competetive. I would like to see them get into the game soon. I would like to see quests where 2 groups enter from separate points and have different objectives they have to complete before the other team completes their objectives... imagine misery peak, with the crystal cove difficulty selector, and one party goes the normal way while another party goes to play with the dragon... could even have a lowbie party vs a epic party in something like that. I would also like to see quests that are slayer/last stand competitions where you are separate, and have to kill the most mobs and survive the longest, with waves of increasing difficulty, no end in sight till one side is overwhelmed and dings out... I would also like to see the black abbot raid turned into a free for all pvp arena... mobs and everything... maybe the shroud too.

    I would also like an addition to the difficulty options on quests to turn on friendly fire, this would amp up the difficulty to insane heights for many groups... imagine if a barbarian accidentally cleaves thru his party, or the wizard starts spamming persistent aoe's lol, or the arcane archer shoots paralizers thru the whole party, people would have to pay alot more attention to what they are doing and how it effects their fellow party members... also pvpers could use this mode to engage in pvp battles with a wide range of possible arenas (all of which are completely hostile). Imagine tharask arena being truly a last man standing gladiator match!
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 07-17-2011 at 07:11 AM.
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  8. #88
    Community Member heyytoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyzern View Post
    Most games have a PvP system that differenciates PvE from PvP.
    Examples:
    - A Knockback spell would only work in PvE
    - A Sleep spell would have 1/3 duration in PvP
    - All damage would be reduced by 50% in PvP

    Stuff like that.
    But there's a problem with PvP in MMORPGs, most of them have rewards for PvP and such, so people start focusing a lot on PvP, getting angry, QQing, raging and so the community starts rotting. Then there's the cash shop problem, adding PvP items to the chas shop so turbine gets more $ and CSers will overpower F2Pers. Finally, the difference between a Lv. 4 Completionist Warforged Wizard to a lv. 4 regular human Wizard is so huge that the poor human wiz would die before he even sees what's going on.

    Most of the things youv mentionned comes from games that only have PvP. DDO is PvE based and will never be a PvP game. This doesn't mean that they can't improve it.

    - Ship battles between guilds.
    - Quest a la crystal cove where you build you're base gathering recourses against
    another group of player.
    - Arena's with lvl cap.
    - Spell restriction in some arena's.
    & more!!

    As i said before, PvP as a lot of potential in a game working with DnD rules. There's no game on the market with a combat system as good as the one we have in DDO and imo it's a shame that i can only kill headless stuff with it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorWhofan View Post
    I am ok with minor changes, another tavern brawl some new arenas, that's fine. That doesn't take a whole lot of dev time to do, but major changes do. SO, back to the OP, yes, it is good just the way it is.
    Aaah dev time...

    Not all turbine employee work on classes/races/PREs/Feats/Spell/quests... Some work on lil things like PvP. So even if you don't wants devs to spend time on PvP, it won't make any diff at the end. The guy who work on Races will still work on Races and the guy who work on PvP will still work on pvp.
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  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by heyytoi View Post
    Aaah dev time...

    Not all turbine employee work on classes/races/PREs/Feats/Spell/quests... Some work on lil things like PvP. So even if you don't wants devs to spend time on PvP, it won't make any diff at the end. The guy who work on Races will still work on Races and the guy who work on PvP will still work on pvp.
    If they can get it on it's own self-sustaining income that would be fine. If PVP cannot sustain itself financially on it's own merits then it's a drain on other resources, which I am against. I still prefer all resources spent on things I believe are a higher priority, such as bug fixes, all tier III PRE's, content, a completed list of classes and races (I do not think we need to have more each year and that would fall into the same category as PVP eventually IMO).
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  10. #90
    Community Member heyytoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    If they can get it on it's own self-sustaining income that would be fine. If PVP cannot sustain itself financially on it's own merits then it's a drain on other resources, which I am against. I still prefer all resources spent on things I believe are a higher priority, such as bug fixes, all tier III PRE's, content, a completed list of classes and races (I do not think we need to have more each year and that would fall into the same category as PVP eventually IMO).
    Most Pay-to-win MMO's make more money than DDO... Do you want DDO to be a Pay-to-win fest with kids that got rich parents?

    I sure don't want this heh.. However there is a big market for PvP. And pvp in this game could be amazing without touching PvE. In fact it would make PvE more important since the only place you can acquire good gear is from a quest.
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  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by heyytoi View Post
    Most Pay-to-win MMO's make more money than DDO... Do you want DDO to be a Pay-to-win fest with kids that got rich parents?

    I sure don't want this heh.. However there is a big market for PvP. And pvp in this game could be amazing without touching PvE. In fact it would make PvE more important since the only place you can acquire good gear is from a quest.
    The ability to buy PVP maps for PVP players that want to PVP in a separate instance isn't a pay to win system and could allocate the revenue to PVP development. That isn't bad because that means PVP players who want better PVP can have it by paying for it and it would be there for them.

    If it's not self sustaining then it's not worth the development time (in my opinion) because that is when it does take away from other development efforts. I am all for players who get to buy what they want and that is the opportunity I see. If those players don't want to pay for it then why should I?

    Pay to win is my issue with some DDO store items already, but I would question the validity of the statement that most pay to win make more money than DDO. Do you have the financials available for DDO and most pay to win games handy so we can take a look together?
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  12. #92
    Community Member heyytoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    The ability to buy PVP maps for PVP players that want to PVP in a separate instance isn't a pay to win system and could allocate the revenue to PVP development. That isn't bad because that means PVP players who want better PVP can have it by paying for it and it would be there for them.

    If it's not self sustaining then it's not worth the development time (in my opinion) because that is when it does take away from other development efforts. I am all for players who get to buy what they want and that is the opportunity I see. If those players don't want to pay for it then why should I?

    Pay to win is my issue with some DDO store items already, but I would question the validity of the statement that most pay to win make more money than DDO. Do you have the financials available for DDO and most pay to win games handy so we can take a look together?
    I couldn't agree more on this post.

    As for you're question no I don't have the financials of any game. But any pay-to-win game that has more player than DDO will make more money. And DDO doesn't have that many players...

    I know people that wasted thousands on pay-to-win games. Quite sad if you ask me but you know...
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  13. #93
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    I've only had one PvP experience in DDO. Someone challenged me to a duel. I was bored and curious, so I accepted. After I beat him, he invited me to his guild. I used Manyshot - maybe that was cheating, I don't know.

    I'll say this about PvP. I don't despise it. I don't look down on those who enjoy it. Every hour the dev team takes to work on PvP is an hour that they work on something I will never experience, and the selfish part of me doesn't want that to happen. Of course, I realize that my personal gaming preferences aren't the only important thing to Turbine, and I accept that they may even spend a little time on enhancing PvP.

    What I am scared of, and the thing that I think makes people take such a strong stance against it, is that I don't want the PvE game changing because of PvP balance. I want the PvE game to be based around PvE considerations. In my experience, the biggest division in a community comes when on aspect of a game has profound and detrimental effects on a different and unrelated aspect of the game. If the devs can find a way to fully separate the two experiences, then I'm all for it. If they can't, I'll ask them to please leave the game alone.
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  14. #94
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    I can completely understand the fear of our game changing around a pvp system that is why instead of saying things like "leave it alone" or "Take it out" I think the player base needs to come up with viable ideas to get to the devs ones that can improve on what we have without it intruding on the pve game. I think it can be done, my biggest fear is us not having any input and a totally borked system comes out and people are unhappy on both sides. Thats why Id like to see more structured threads with pvp ideas ones that do not have constant bickering on whether it belongs or not. The game keeps changing we constantly get things none of us would have wanted or thought of I see things this way we can keep saying "No" and have them put in a completely intrusive system that they will have to balance around. Or they can have feedback on what players would want in such an overhaul figure what profits can be made from it (from both sales and the amount of customers it attracts) and go from there.
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  15. #95
    Community Member Yajerman01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank_Zero View Post
    I want grease enabled personally... Among other things...
    I find this funny because your OP says leave it alone, do not change anything.

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  16. #96
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    yeah.. true
    check out my idea but read through all the replies before YOU reply. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4011179

  17. #97
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Delt View Post
    Easy, improve pvp. Better suggestion provided.
    I enjoy pvp, and I disagree with this suggestion.
    This doesn't make sense. Improvements are improvements though what counts as "improving PVP" is quite subjective.

    For my part, I suggested some time ago to add a DotA style map. Here is my suggestion.

    I think this perfectly addresses the need for a more worthwhile PvP experience without upsetting the balance of the game or taking up precious developer time.

    I am confident that providing a worthwhile PvP experience will be necessary to ensure the longevity of DDO. Even as it is we can see an increasing tendency for pay2win which is going to destroy our game as surely as the threat of people whinging over pvp balance in a pvp focused game (which this suggestion attempts to sidestep as much as possible).

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