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  1. #41
    Community Member Talonaise's Avatar
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    Addy,

    My comment was simply this:

    1. Small guilds get a bonus
    2. Small guilds get a second bonus when decay is calculated.

    Large guilds do not.

    That stands.

    Now, your argument that it is more about activity is correct. YES a HUGE guild with 100% active members that played every day would still achieve faster.

    That however, is not reality. In reality with larger guilds you get some members who are very active and others who are casual players. This system punishes u for that. It basically forces u to either purge the weak, or not care. Frankly, I don't think you should punish a group for allowing the casual weekend player to stay a part of it. By setting up the renown system the way they have, Trubine is in fact punishing u for allowing less active players in your guild.

    And the numbers support this. Look at the leader boards across servers and you notice that the larger the guild, the less likely they are to be in the top ranges.

    I play WoW as well as DDO, and I see the cut throat nature of guilds there and I prefer not to see it here as well. I know it has affected us at CK and how we look at adding new people. That is sad.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Talonaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post


    OG, Dark will kick you if he see that Az


    Shhhhhh Dark doesn't look at the forums does he? I think I am safe
    Last edited by Talonaise; 07-19-2011 at 01:25 PM.
    Kitraine ~ Degenerate Matter
    Completionist / Epic Completionist - 15 Druid / 4 Favored Soul / 1 Sorcerer
    Triple past lives Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric/Favored Soul/Druid/Morninglord

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  3. #43
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    I wish they gave renown for piking
    The Nak Abides - Ascent - Argonnessen
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  4. #44
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganak View Post
    I wish they gave renown for piking
    Og me too! My guild would be at least 80 by now.

    Maybe if they gave renown for deaths too I'd be 100.
    Characters - Brion, Damerchant, Deathbot, Goode-, Minusten, Sepiriz, Spiritstrike, Stee, Steilh, Vorpaal, Wyllye, Yaga, Yagalicious, Yga. RIP - Catpizzle and Qazpe
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  5. #45
    Community Member Atenhotep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talonaise View Post
    ...
    Azlix

    Ok, first the thing we agree on .. it's just a matter of opinion but yes the renown system has changed the nature of Guilds, and there is an ugly element to that. But it is WAI ... Turbine wants their little social experiment to function that way. If not, guild levels wouldn't be shown next to our names in game (which btw I think is ridiculous).

    As for the rest .. I'm sorry but your information is just incorrect. I'm not trying to upset you but I really don't like that this thread has been derailed by complaints about the renown system and I'm not happy to be a part of that process. But I also must object to you spreading false information about the renown system and feel that must be corrected.

    By you claiming large guilds are being penalized by the renown system you might be scaring people from trying to form large guilds. In fact it is not large guilds that are being "penalized" (as you call it) it is simply that any size guild with a number of casual or non power gamers is going to hit their equilibrium point before that of a strictly power gaming guild. And that's a recruitment choice on the part of the guild .... not the results of a broken renown system.

    Let's use CK as our example. Take the number of active members in CK. Now of those members figure out how many of them are very active power gamers. What percentage of your overall membership does that represent? Now of the remaining members, are they moderately active members, casual? Now figure out what percentage of your overall membership they represent.

    With these numbers in mind, now apply these same percentages to a guild 1/4 your size.

    Now take this "smaller guild" with the same percentage of very active power gamers and same percentage of moderate to casual gamers and track them through the renown chart. You'll find the results are roughly the same.

    So I'll just leave you with this and hope you understand: It's not the renown system, it's your recruitment choices. You can't have all the benefits of a power gaming guild while at the same time not having just power gamers in your guild.

    FALW's guild level is a result of my choices in recruitment, not of a broken renown system and I'm very happy where we are. As I said in that other thread, if I had booted half our membership long ago and carved out the non power gamers we would be much higher in renown ... but I like the balance we have struck. I hope you can be happy where you are as well. If you aren't then change your membership to be more representative of a power gaming guild or a casual guild. The renown system really is a "Can't have your cake and eat it too" kinda thing.

    Best of Luck,
    Aten

    Edit: For more information, please read this great informative post:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

    Really, if you read his post and use his resources I can't imagine any more of confusion and misinformation being repeated. He really spells it all out.
    Last edited by Atenhotep; 07-20-2011 at 04:16 PM.

  6. #46
    Community Member Vengenance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post

    OG, Dark will kick you if he see that Az
    But not until we reach level 85.
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  7. #47
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengenance View Post
    But not until we reach level 85.
    I did hear Dark talking about how nice the Eight was because they were such a small close knit group...and how going back to that would make the renown decay so very small...

    Plus you know how he hates it when the ship gets crowded on those days he is only Premium and just wants to stand on the ship in peace.










    (I am so getting booted that first night...)

  8. #48
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atenhotep View Post
    Let's use CK as our example. Take the number of active members in CK (I'm sure you know how to mouse over the guild tab to do this and you don't need to share these numbers here, this is just a little project for you). Now of those members figure out how many of them are very active power gamers. What percentage of your overall membership does that represent? Now of the remaining members, are they moderately active members, casual? Now figure out what percentage of your overall membership they represent.

    With these numbers in mind, now apply these same percentages to a guild 1/4 your size.

    Now take this "smaller guild" with the same percentage of very active power gamers and same percentage of moderate to casual gamers and track them through the renown chart. You'll find the results are roughly the same.
    I don't have any problem sharing numbers. We are currently at around 100 accounts counting towards decay. I believe that 5-10 or so of those are from recent departures or from people that have started an extended break waiting to drop down to inactive status.

    Here is a table someone put up from another discussion thread. I haven't done the math myself, but I'll assume for now that it's accurate. Mainly because, like all statistical arguments, it back up my already predecided opinions. And what I mean by that, is that it feels about right from what I've observed on guild levels and decay over the last few months.

    The break even point is 50 active accounts. (Meaning everyone with 50 active accounts up to the theoretical 1000 uses the same numbers).

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...23#post3931923


    Quote Originally Posted by Ashbinder View Post
    A little late on the debate, but I just thought I'd mention that 6 man guilds are inefficient for renown purposes. It's better to be 7-16 members for the best rates.

    Here's a table of unmodified renown needed at level 100 to maintain the decay rate.


    Code:
    Guild 	Renown 	Renown Decay 	Modified Daily Renown 
    Size	Bonus	(Level 100)	Decay	Per Account
    1	1.5	33000		13200	13200
    2	1.8	36000		12857	6428
    3	2.1	39000		12580	4193
    4	2.4	42000		12352	3088
    5	2.7	45000		12162	2432
    6	3	48000		12000	2000
    7	2.85	51000		13246	1892
    8	2.7	54000		14594	1824
    9	2.55	57000		16056	1784
    10	2.4	60000		17647	1764
    11	2.25	63000		19384	1762
    12	2.1	66000		21290	1774
    13	1.95	69000		23389	1799
    14	1.8	72000		25714	1836
    15	1.65	75000		28301	1886
    16	1.5	78000		31200	1950
    17	1.37	81000		34177	2010
    18	1.255	84000		37250	2069
    19	1.152	87000		40427	2127
    20	1.059	90000		43710	2185
    21	0.975	93000		47088	2242
    22	0.898	96000		50579	2299
    23	0.829	99000		54127	2353
    24	0.765	102000		57790	2407
    25	0.706	105000		61547	2461
    26	0.652	108000		65375	2514
    27	0.601	111000		69331	2567
    28	0.555	114000		73311	2618
    29	0.511	117000		77432	2670
    30	0.471	120000		81577	2719
    31	0.433	123000		85833	2768
    32	0.397	126000		90193	2818
    33	0.364	129000		94574	2865
    34	0.332	132000		99099	2914
    35	0.303	135000		103607	2960
    36	0.275	138000		108235	3006
    37	0.248	141000		112980	3053
    38	0.223	144000		117743	3098
    39	0.199	147000		122602	3143
    40	0.176	150000		127551	3188
    41	0.155	153000		132467	3230
    42	0.134	156000		137566	3275
    43	0.115	159000		142600	3316
    44	0.096	162000		147810	3359
    45	0.078	165000		153061	3401
    46	0.061	168000		158341	3442
    47	0.045	171000		163636	3481
    48	0.029	174000		169096	3522
    49	0.014	177000		174556	3562
    50	0	180000		180000	3600
    Assuming each member earns equal amounts of renown on average, a 7-16 man guild needs less than 2K per day per person before modifiers to beat the decay. Others need more.
    So right now, using those numbers as just the theoretical maximum to fight decay at level 100, each individual member of CK would need to earn 3600 renown per day just to break even. In your example of the guild 1/4 of our size(25 active accounts), each individual member would need to earn 68% as much renown to hold even.

    Even if the percentages of active power gaming characters to casual players remained the same, the active members in a smaller guild should more than make up for the casual players. (Looking at a 32% cushion, so to speak)
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  9. #49
    Community Member Atenhotep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    Mainly because, like all statistical arguments, it back up my already predecided opinions.
    That's the most intelligent thing I've read so far. It is true, we humans form our opinions prior to looking for evidence. We then embrace all evidence which supports our existing opinions while ignoring all evidence which conflicts. It's just human nature. We are all doing that each and every day.

    With that said I think this guy from OverRaided really lays it out and I just wish people would read this:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

    Beast Wishes,
    Aten

  10. #50
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atenhotep View Post
    That's the most intelligent thing I've read so far. It is true, we humans form our opinions prior to looking for evidence. We then embrace all evidence which supports our existing opinions while ignoring all evidence which conflicts. It's just human nature. We are all doing that each and every day.

    With that said I think this guy from OverRaided really lays it out and I just wish people would read this:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

    Beast Wishes,
    Aten
    Umm.. I've read it. I agree with some of his points, and disagree with others.

    Let me point you back to the point in this thread that you originally started debating about. (I quoted the opinion part of it, the other points aren't very debatable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talonaise View Post
    Being on the top, or the bottom of this list, is fairly meaningless. The renown system is not well planned out in general in this game. The bonus given to small guilds, plus the second bonus given to small guilds in the form of less decay will mean in the end, small guilds will rule these lists. The decay rate at the higher levels is out of control.
    I'm still waiting for you to comment on the actual number chart I posted. We can discuss later if the numbers in the chart are correct or not. As I said, I don't have any reason to doubt them just from my own observations, but I haven't actually done the math myself yet.

    Specifically, my claim is that members of any guild that has 50 members or over(or 4 members or less), have to gain more renown per member than a guild of 5-49 members to combat decay. This is also the original claim (although in general terms, not specific numbers) that you originally started posting here to debunk, because you didn't like people spreading what you referred to as "false information".

    So.. From the numbers that I quoted, do larger guilds get penalized more than smaller guilds or not? It's a pretty simple question, that so far you've avoided answering.
    Osharan, Esharan, Osharina, Usharina, etc... I'm the 'sharans. Epoxy. Notverysexy.
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  11. #51
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Hmm.. Here, I'll make it a bit easier. (I did the math myself)

    I'm going to use CK's numbers (since that was what started the discussion) vs a theoretical 25 member guild at the same level as CK (84).

    I'm using renown decay numbers and member bonus numbers from the DDO wiki.

    Guild renown decay formula
    The formula for renown decay is a level-based multiplier times an account-based multiplier (LevelMultiplier * AccountMultiplier). The account-based multiplier is the Modified Guild Size + 10. The level-based multiplier can be looked up in the list below.
    CK
    Level 84 Decay * (modified guild size +10)
    (1422)*(100 +10) =156420
    Divide by number of active accounts, and you get 1564.2 renown per member, just to combat decay. No small/medium guild renown bonus, since we have over that number of members.

    Theoretical level 25 guild
    (1422)*(25+10) =49770
    Divide by number of active accounts, and you get 1990.8 renown per member, just to combat decay. However, every member in this guild gets a 70.5% renown bonus, for being a small guild. So instead of having to earn 1990.8 renown per member to combat decay, they only need to earn 1403.5 renown per member to combat decay.

    If both guilds have all members active (which is a different discussion altogether), and they are both equally active(let's say they are somehow all earning 1564.2 base renown per day), CK would be staying dead even. The smaller guild would be going forward.

    This WAS the original statement that you have consistently and repeatedly claimed was incorrect.

    Now, please note that I'm not trying to say that the system is wrong, or broken, or anything along those lines. That also is an entirely different discussion. I am, however, trying to make an accurate summation of the system as it is currently designed.
    Last edited by Osharan_Tregarth; 07-20-2011 at 06:16 PM. Reason: syntax
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  12. #52
    Community Member Atenhotep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    So.. From the numbers that I quoted, do larger guilds get penalized more than smaller guilds or not? It's a pretty simple question, that so far you've avoided answering.
    No. I do not believe that is correct. I believe the renown system does not favor large guilds nor does it favor small guilds. I believe it favors active players (if your goal is to increase in Guild Level).

    I believe the link I posted by the gentleman from Overraided lays it out nicely.

    I also believe that a HUGE guild comprised of all powers gamers who all collect unemployment and have no life other than just playing DDO would move very quickly up the renown ladder.

    But I also believe that science should unite an Penguin, a meerkat and a koala bear to make one of the cutets pets ever. But that's another topic.

    In any case, I appreciate the information you have presented and in that current form it looks like there is a great difference, I'm just not sure it is entirely accurate given the parameters I discussed. (Power gamers vs casual players) whereas the post I linked seems very accurate.

    Thanks,
    Aten

  13. #53
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atenhotep View Post
    No. I do not believe that is correct. I believe the renown system does not favor large guilds nor does it favor small guilds. I believe it favors active players (if your goal is to increase in Guild Level).

    I believe the link I posted by the gentleman from Overraided lays it out nicely.

    I also believe that a HUGE guild comprised of all powers gamers who all collect unemployment and have no life other than just playing DDO would move very quickly up the renown ladder.

    But I also believe that science should unite an Penguin, a meerkat and a koala bear to make one of the cutets pets ever. But that's another topic.

    In any case, I appreciate the information you have presented and in that current form it looks like there is a great difference, I'm just not sure it is entirely accurate given the parameters I discussed. (Power gamers vs casual players) whereas the post I linked seems very accurate.

    Thanks,
    Aten
    I've read pretty much all of Vanshillars posts, and unfortunately large chunks of them are in response to the people who claim that small guilds shouldn't be able to level up as well as large guilds. IE instead of being able to just present data, he's constantly having to debunk posts from people like shade who have some pretty firmly ingrained prejudices.

    Unfortunately, the post you keep referring back to doesn't have any DATA in it. There are a lot of his opinions, which are being backed up by empirical data from the myddo leaderboards. In other words, most of the time he's not working out the nuts and bolts of the system in those threads, he's analyzing the results of the system. There is a big difference there.

    The post you are referring to is the equivalent of saying that because your car comes out of the carwash covered in water, the only thing going on in the car wash is covering your car with water.

    I don't have any disagreements with his math when he's worked it out, but most of his posts have to do with either statistical analysis of the existing empirical data, or reposting the data calculated from his (small sized) guild.
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  14. #54
    2014 DDO Players Council alexthegood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostx View Post
    Current as of 7/16/2011. Now includes all guilds level 26 and higher.

    This thread's main purpose is to help out people that want to join a guild. Although guilded people can see how their guild is doing compared to other guilds ranked in the top 250.

    Guilds are ranked solely on total renown. The guild with the highest total is ranked first. I only started to do this recently, so my data doesn't go that far back. June 9, 2011 is my reference date. All changes are base on a snapshot of that date to compare with a more recent date.

    So if your guild has gained members since the reference date, you will have a positive member change column.

    Code:
    Rank 	 Rank Change 	                Guild Name                	 Level 	 Level Change 	 Members 	 Members Change   
       1 	          +0 	                             ChaosKnights 	    84 	           +2 	     798 	            +76
       2 	          +0 	                       Imperial Assassins 	    79 	           +0 	     324 	            -31
       3 	          +0 	                    Fine Antique Leg Wear 	    78 	           +2 	     325 	             +7
       4 	          +1 	                      The House of MANGAR 	    77 	           +1 	     401 	             -2
       5 	          -1 	                      Dungeons and Dragon 	    76 	           +0 	     158 	             -3
       6 	          +1 	                      Single Malt Addicts 	    75 	           +3 	      77 	             -6
       7 	          +1 	                               Bloodlords 	    75 	           +4 	     101 	             -6
       8 	          -2 	                                      BDH 	    75 	           +1 	     342 	            -31
       9 	          +0 	                          Noble By Design 	    74 	           +3 	     732 	            +54
      10 	          +1 	                          Aces over Kings 	    72 	           +2 	     300 	             -1
      11 	          -1 	                              Doomdancers 	    71 	           +1 	     370 	            +68
      12 	          +0 	                             The Ancients 	    71 	           +2 	     398 	            +74
      13 	          +0 	                                     Math 	    71 	           +3 	      79 	             -3
      14 	          +2 	                            Bedlam Asylum 	    70 	           +4 	     119 	            +36
      15 	          -1 	                              The Metrics 	    68 	           +1 	      68 	            -18
      16 	          -1 	                              *Spellfire* 	    68 	           +2 	     225 	             -7
      17 	          +1 	                                 Whispers 	    67 	           +2 	      26 	             +0
      18 	          +1 	                            Truth Seekers 	    67 	           +2 	     284 	            -78
      19 	          -2 	              Order of the Silver Dragons 	    66 	           +0 	     790 	            +34
      20 	          +3 	                                   Ascent 	    66 	           +3 	     184 	             +5
      21 	          -1 	                         Nothing Personal 	    66 	           +2 	     168 	            -14
      22 	          +4 	               The Guardians of the Flame 	    64 	           +3 	      71 	             +7
      23 	          -1 	                           Old School DnD 	    64 	           +0 	      33 	             +0
      24 	          +0 	                     Bringers of Darkness 	    64 	           +2 	     469 	            -40
      25 	          +2 	                            Death N Taxes 	    63 	           +2 	      52 	             +3
      26 	          -5 	                              Unbreakable 	    63 	           -1 	     185 	            -97
      27 	          +1 	              Order of the Holy Sepulchre 	    63 	           +2 	     242 	            +20
      28 	          -3 	                          Elite By Nature 	    63 	           +2 	     209 	             +8
      29 	          +0 	               La Compagnie de Naheulbeuk 	    62 	           +1 	     498 	            +45
      30 	          +2 	                                  Vatican 	    62 	           +3 	      51 	            +12
      31 	          +3 	                     Exilados de Akathorn 	    61 	           +3 	     118 	            -11
      32 	          -2 	                    Stranger Than Fiction 	    61 	           +2 	     311 	            +18
      33 	          +0 	                     Knights Gone Berserk 	    61 	           +2 	     237 	            +57
      34 	          +7 	                   Pacto da Caneca Furada 	    61 	           +5 	      52 	            -12
      35 	          -4 	                         Identity Unknown 	    60 	           +1 	     224 	            -23
      36 	          -1 	                          TheWreckingCrew 	    59 	           +2 	      60 	             -7
      37 	          +1 	                              Eagle Wings 	    59 	           +2 	      22 	             +2
      38 	          -2 	                           Turbo Zoquetes 	    58 	           +1 	      69 	             +0
      39 	         +10 	                              The Evocati 	    58 	           +4 	      81 	             -8
      40 	          -3 	                             Korthos Army 	    58 	           +1 	      69 	             +5
      41 	          +3 	                    Married With Children 	    58 	           +3 	     322 	            +38
      42 	          +6 	                                 Comrades 	    57 	           +2 	      42 	             -3
      43 	          -3 	                             Vetus Schola 	    57 	           +1 	      86 	             -3
      44 	          +2 	            The Fellowship of Argonnessen 	    57 	           +2 	     243 	            +11
      45 	          +0 	                          Royal Bloodline 	    57 	           +2 	     325 	             +6
      46 	          -3 	                               Noble fist 	    56 	           +1 	     219 	             +9
      47 	          -8 	                                   HRVATI 	    56 	           +0 	      94 	           -122
      48 	          +5 	                                     Idle 	    56 	           +2 	      32 	             +1
      49 	          +6 	                         Iron Blood Union 	    56 	           +3 	     231 	            +14
      50 	          -3 	                          rollin twenties 	    56 	           +1 	      27 	             +5
      51 	          -9 	                 Fellowship Of The Shrine 	    55 	           -1 	     374 	            +34
      52 	          +2 	                             Storm Shadow 	    55 	           +1 	     382 	            +17
      53 	          -3 	           Mortal Voyage Permadeath Guild 	    55 	           +1 	     789 	            -10
      54 	          +3 	                                    VENOM 	    55 	           +2 	      88 	            +10
      55 	         +19 	                        Faithful Uprising 	    55 	           +5 	      88 	             +1
      56 	          +4 	                            Lightbringers 	    55 	           +2 	     219 	            +19
      57 	          +5 	                         The New Age Gods 	    55 	           +3 	      60 	             +3
      58 	          -6 	            How Many Words Can U Fit Here 	    55 	           +1 	      65 	             -3
      59 	          -3 	                    Circle of Destruction 	    55 	           +2 	     119 	            -16
      60 	          -1 	                           The Everchosen 	    55 	           +2 	     209 	             +1
      61 	          +4 	                            Hells Minions 	    54 	           +2 	      69 	             -5
      62 	          +1 	                        Celestial Knights 	    54 	           +2 	     122 	            +17
      63 	          +5 	                   Knights Of The Phoenix 	    54 	           +3 	     148 	            +18
      64 	         -13 	                             Guild of Won 	    54 	           +0 	      28 	             +0
      65 	         +12 	                                ARGONAUTS 	    54 	           +4 	     163 	            +22
      66 	          +0 	                 Regno dell'Oscuro Sapere 	    53 	           +1 	     159 	            +17
      67 	         +12 	                  Sovereigns of Shavarath 	    53 	           +4 	     140 	             +8
      68 	          -7 	                   Elite Guard of Eberron 	    53 	           +1 	     200 	            -72
      69 	          -2 	                     Order of the Ten Bux 	    53 	           +2 	     162 	            +52
      70 	          -6 	                      Blades of Vengeance 	    53 	           +1 	      54 	            -38
      71 	         -13 	          SMARTASSES WITH CAKES N SCROLLS 	    53 	           +0 	       5 	             -1
      72 	          +0 	                        The Hidden Blades 	    53 	           +2 	      15 	             +1
      73 	          +2 	                        The Thieves Guild 	    52 	           +2 	     155 	            -10
      74 	          -4 	                           Diggers' Union 	    52 	           +1 	     117 	             -2
      75 	          -4 	                    Huitzilopochtli Heirs 	    52 	           +1 	     139 	             +4
      76 	          +0 	                   The Dwarven Resistance 	    51 	           +1 	     100 	            +15
      77 	          +7 	               House Kushiel d'Anguisette 	    51 	           +3 	      34 	             +4
      78 	         +18 	                                  Wabbits 	    51 	           +4 	      35 	             -1
      79 	          -6 	                           Ordos Draconum 	    51 	           +1 	     119 	            -13
      80 	          +1 	                          Slayers in Silk 	    51 	           +2 	      51 	             +4
      81 	         +13 	                           Phoenix Rizing 	    51 	           +4 	     107 	            +14
      82 	         -13 	                     That's What She Said 	    51 	           +0 	       5 	             -1
      83 	          +9 	                          Casual Slackers 	    50 	           +3 	      40 	             +1
      84 	         +18 	                             Northern men 	    50 	           +4 	      45 	             +0
      85 	          -5 	                            Stormbringers 	    50 	           +1 	      89 	            -18
      86 	          -3 	                Hospitalers of Stormreach 	    50 	           +2 	     119 	             +2
      87 	         +26 	                                 Emrivaki 	    50 	           +5 	      40 	             +5
      88 	          -6 	                          Amethyst Empire 	    50 	           +1 	     209 	             -1
      89 	          +1 	                      Bastards of Eberron 	    50 	           +3 	      71 	             +4
      90 	         +13 	                      Disciples of Khrone 	    49 	           +3 	      49 	             +5
      91 	          -6 	                Pencil and Paper Veterans 	    49 	           +1 	      27 	             +1
      92 	         +17 	            Inferno of Mighty Adventurers 	    49 	           +4 	     661 	           -210
      93 	         +23 	                        Global Domination 	    49 	           +4 	      28 	             +1
      94 	         -16 	              Order of the Flying Dragons 	    49 	           +0 	      49 	            -17
      95 	          -6 	                            Stormreach Ne 	    49 	           +1 	      36 	             +0
      96 	         +10 	                          Kovadek Hybrids 	    49 	           +3 	     185 	            +25
      97 	          -9 	                                 Bombadil 	    49 	           +1 	      70 	            -10
      98 	          -3 	                           ServerFiftyOne 	    48 	           +1 	      48 	             -3
      99 	          +5 	                                The Eldar 	    48 	           +2 	      41 	             +3
     100 	          -7 	                   Humorous Dumazz Deaths 	    48 	           +1 	     130 	            -30
     101 	         -14 	                      Kingdom of Draconis 	    48 	           +0 	     159 	            -45
     102 	        +198 	                      Psychopathic Saints 	    48 	          +16 	      76 	            -12
     103 	          +2 	                              United GunZ 	    48 	           +2 	     242 	            +30
     104 	          -6 	                            Steel Phoenix 	    48 	           +1 	     109 	             -1
     105 	         -14 	                                 Archmagi 	    47 	           +0 	      54 	             -6
     106 	          +6 	                    One Foot in the Grave 	    47 	           +2 	      95 	             -6
     107 	         -21 	                               Bad Apples 	    47 	           -1 	      29 	            -15
     108 	          -9 	                    Castaways and Cutouts 	    47 	           +0 	      10 	             -1
     109 	          +6 	                                Pure Life 	    47 	           +2 	      77 	             +3
     110 	          -3 	                          House of Penton 	    47 	           +2 	     182 	             +2
     111 	         -14 	                                    Union 	    47 	           +0 	      27 	             +0
     112 	          +6 	                   Order of the Labyrinth 	    46 	           +1 	      45 	             +4
     113 	          +1 	              Knightz Of The Square Table 	    46 	           +1 	      61 	             -1
     114 	         +15 	            Guardians of the Silver Flame 	    46 	           +3 	      99 	            +12
     115 	         -14 	                           Da Rage Elites 	    46 	           +0 	      69 	            -11
     116 	          +3 	                             Golden Horde 	    46 	           +2 	     141 	            +13
     117 	          -9 	                             Battlehammer 	    46 	           +1 	     121 	            -51
     118 	          -7 	                                 Ascensio 	    46 	           +1 	      23 	             +1
     119 	         +18 	                         Comfortably Numb 	    46 	           +4 	     153 	            +37
     120 	         -10 	              We DO NOT RUN thru Dungeons 	    46 	           +1 	     181 	             -8
     121 	         -21 	                   Make Warforges Not War 	    46 	           +0 	     271 	           -355
     122 	          -2 	                      The Dreaded Saksons 	    46 	           +2 	     173 	             +0
     123 	          -6 	                           Windscar Elite 	    46 	           +1 	     207 	            +13
     124 	          -3 	                               Think Tank 	    45 	           +1 	      32 	             +1
     125 	         +18 	             Heroes of Light and Darkness 	    45 	           +4 	     191 	            +47
     126 	          +2 	                            Shadow Riders 	    45 	           +2 	      80 	             +0
     127 	          +0 	                    Busco Piso En Korthos 	    45 	           +2 	      30 	             +0
     128 	          +6 	                                  Imagine 	    45 	           +3 	      55 	             +1
     129 	        +205 	                                Zerg Zerg 	    45 	          +14 	      48 	            +22
     130 	          -6 	               BLACK SPELL OF DESTRUCTION 	    45 	           +2 	      73 	             +4
     131 	          +2 	                  Twillight of Argonessen 	    44 	           +2 	      19 	             +1
     132 	         +13 	                    Heroes of Karalis ITA 	    44 	           +3 	      33 	             +2
     133 	         -11 	                              Novus Vinco 	    44 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     134 	         +22 	                             Looney Toonz 	    44 	           +4 	     162 	           +137
     135 	          -3 	                   Friends of Faagerstrom 	    44 	           +2 	      34 	             +2
     136 	          -6 	                Brute Force and Ignorance 	    43 	           +0 	      87 	             +4
     137 	         -14 	                            Imperial Army 	    43 	           -1 	     302 	            -96
     138 	          +1 	                          The Peacemakers 	    43 	           +1 	      58 	             +6
     139 	         +12 	                        Eternal Champions 	    43 	           +3 	      43 	             +2
     140 	         -14 	                             wudisanrenzu 	    43 	           +0 	      36 	             +0
     141 	         -16 	                         Sarcasm For Hire 	    43 	           +0 	      34 	             +0
     142 	          +7 	                            The Punishers 	    43 	           +2 	      19 	             -2
     143 	         +14 	                           House Absolute 	    43 	           +3 	      35 	            -13
     144 	          -3 	                            ShadowWalkers 	    43 	           +2 	     150 	            -13
     145 	         +19 	                              The Fockers 	    43 	           +3 	      24 	             +0
     146 	          -4 	                Muppets Of The Apocolypse 	    43 	           +2 	      20 	             -8
     147 	         +11 	                       Piratas do Carilha 	    43 	           +3 	      21 	            +19
     148 	         +14 	                     calix meus inebrians 	    43 	           +3 	      28 	             +3
     149 	         -18 	                      League of Adventure 	    43 	           +0 	      11 	             +0
     150 	          -4 	                       I do Haste Potions 	    42 	           +1 	      40 	             +1
     151 	          -3 	                                 Darkside 	    42 	           +1 	     117 	            -17
     152 	         -14 	                              IN ON ELITE 	    42 	           +0 	      46 	            -11
     153 	         -18 	                    Untouchables Reunited 	    42 	           +0 	      18 	             +0
     154 	         -18 	                                  Club Fu 	    42 	           +0 	      26 	             +0
     155 	         +13 	                              StIncognito 	    42 	           +3 	      19 	             -1
     156 	          -6 	                     Heroes of the Realms 	    42 	           +1 	      85 	            -11
     157 	          -2 	                         The Natural Ones 	    42 	           +2 	      60 	             +2
     158 	         -14 	                   Heroic Epic Raid Order 	    41 	           +0 	      13 	            -11
     159 	         +10 	                       Steel City Knights 	    41 	           +2 	      36 	             +4
     160 	         -20 	                         Swords and Magic 	    41 	           -1 	     193 	             -6
     161 	          -7 	                                GrisPoils 	    41 	           +1 	      38 	             -4
     162 	          +1 	                   Phemlorean Brotherhood 	    41 	           +1 	      16 	             +0
     163 	          -3 	                          Dungeon Runners 	    41 	           +1 	      92 	             -5
     164 	         +25 	                         Wardens of Honor 	    41 	           +3 	      55 	             +8
     165 	         +38 	                              Dark Nation 	    41 	           +4 	     199 	           +136
     166 	         +16 	                            the dark ones 	    41 	           +3 	      51 	             +0
     167 	          +5 	                           The Care Bears 	    41 	           +2 	      24 	             +0
     168 	         +19 	                        The Slayer Steele 	    41 	           +3 	      58 	             +6
     169 	          +9 	                      Inglorious Bastards 	    41 	           +2 	      30 	             +7
     170 	          -3 	                              Woodshadows 	    41 	           +2 	      55 	             -2
     171 	          +4 	                        The Final Brigade 	    41 	           +2 	      67 	            -11
     172 	         -25 	                         AFK inside Quest 	    41 	           +0 	      10 	            -18
     173 	         +36 	                            Nana's Chosen 	    41 	           +4 	      15 	             +0
     174 	         -22 	                         Deific Maelstrom 	    40 	           +0 	     117 	             +0
     175 	         -10 	                       west side warriors 	    40 	           +0 	     180 	            +23
     176 	          +1 	                                 Valkyrie 	    40 	           +1 	      12 	             -1
     177 	         -24 	                       Legion of the Dead 	    40 	           +0 	      14 	             -4
     178 	         -19 	                                 Days End 	    40 	           +0 	      34 	             +0
     179 	         -13 	                 Soldiers of the darkness 	    40 	           +1 	      41 	            -25
     180 	          -6 	                            Frere De Sang 	    40 	           +1 	      36 	             -3
     181 	         +17 	                          Trouble Hunters 	    40 	           +3 	      35 	             -1
     182 	         -21 	                   The Freelancers' Guild 	    40 	           +0 	       8 	             +0
     183 	         +40 	                              Fors Fortis 	    40 	           +4 	      85 	             +8
     184 	          -8 	           Brotherhood of the Gold Dragon 	    40 	           +1 	      43 	             +7
     185 	          -2 	                          Fu Leng's Horde 	    40 	           +2 	      54 	             +0
     186 	          +9 	                                 Goda Vos 	    39 	           +2 	      35 	             +3
     187 	         -16 	                                     CDXX 	    39 	           +0 	      26 	             -1
     188 	          +0 	                  Warriors of the Templar 	    39 	           +1 	      35 	            -16
     189 	         +23 	                      Kobold Exterminatus 	    39 	           +2 	      38 	             +0
     190 	         -20 	                              God Complex 	    39 	           +0 	      13 	             +1
     191 	         +20 	                     Order of the Schtick 	    39 	           +2 	      70 	             +1
     192 	          +5 	                            ShadowThieves 	    39 	           +2 	     106 	            +43
     193 	         -12 	                Raiders of the Cookie Jar 	    39 	           +1 	      17 	             -5
     194 	         +20 	               spam and cheese sandwiches 	    39 	           +2 	     334 	            +88
     195 	         +36 	                         The Silver Horde 	    39 	           +3 	      29 	             +0
     196 	         -23 	                                 Mega Men 	    39 	           +0 	       7 	             +0
     197 	          -6 	                      Secession for Texas 	    39 	           +1 	      25 	             +1
     198 	         -13 	                       Angel of the Night 	    39 	           +1 	       4 	             -6
     199 	          +1 	                      Midnite's Marauders 	    39 	           +2 	      49 	             +1
     200 	          +1 	                            White Raiders 	    39 	           +2 	      69 	             -2
     201 	          +1 	                          The Shadow Sith 	    39 	           +2 	      40 	             -3
     202 	         -23 	                           Adventure, Inc 	    38 	           +0 	      45 	             -5
     203 	         -23 	                   Stoned Demonic Pirates 	    38 	           +0 	      10 	             -1
     204 	         -18 	                           Marche Funebre 	    38 	           +0 	      31 	             -2
     205 	          -6 	                 Conservative Underground 	    38 	           +1 	      16 	             +0
     206 	          -1 	                       Servants of Yuills 	    38 	           +1 	      28 	             +4
     207 	          +3 	                   CoP Crusaders Of Peace 	    38 	           +1 	     147 	            +22
     208 	         -24 	                             Flying House 	    38 	           +0 	      23 	             +0
     209 	         -13 	                             Amber Dreams 	    38 	           +1 	      17 	             +1
     210 	         +10 	                                 Me and I 	    38 	           +2 	       8 	             +0
     211 	         +25 	                   Relics of the Last War 	    38 	           +3 	      81 	             +2
     212 	          -5 	                          Fortune's Child 	    38 	           +1 	     143 	            -25
     213 	         +17 	                             Time Bandits 	    38 	           +2 	      41 	             +1
     214 	         +10 	                              The Undying 	    38 	           +2 	       5 	             +0
     215 	         +98 	                                The elite 	    38 	           +6 	     103 	            +17
     216 	         -26 	                             MasterHeroes 	    38 	           +0 	      15 	             -1
     217 	         -23 	                The League of Mad Fellows 	    38 	           +1 	       9 	             +1
     218 	          -3 	                              Total Chaos 	    38 	           +1 	      40 	             +0
     219 	          +9 	                                 Boggarts 	    38 	           +2 	      30 	             +2
     220 	          +6 	             Green Knights of the Dragons 	    38 	           +2 	      88 	             -2
     221 	          -2 	                  House of Sword and Song 	    37 	           +1 	      64 	             +2
     222 	         -30 	                    Tricked out Tricycles 	    37 	           +0 	      26 	             +0
     223 	         +26 	                            Brothers Grim 	    37 	           +2 	      29 	             +3
     224 	         +19 	            Guild of Lumberjack Plainsmen 	    37 	           +2 	      40 	             +3
     225 	          -4 	                                Rogue Ops 	    37 	           +1 	       5 	             +1
     226 	          +1 	                              Fianna Fail 	    37 	           +1 	       7 	             +0
     227 	         -21 	                           Warrior's Soul 	    37 	           +0 	     123 	             -2
     228 	         -24 	                                   AMOoOF 	    37 	           +0 	      18 	             -2
     229 	          +0 	                     The Warriors Of Zion 	    37 	           +1 	     112 	            -65
     230 	          +4 	                             Tomb Raiders 	    37 	           +1 	       9 	             +0
     231 	         -18 	                         NOT Korthos Army 	    37 	           +0 	      34 	             +1
     232 	         -10 	                     The Adamantine Souls 	    37 	           +1 	      47 	             -4
     233 	         -25 	                       Professional Noobs 	    37 	           +0 	       2 	             +0
     234 	         -16 	                                The Loner 	    37 	           +1 	      10 	             +0
     235 	         -19 	               Legendary Knights of Mabar 	    36 	           -1 	     111 	             -2
     236 	        +103 	                                Wrek Shop 	    36 	           +5 	      35 	            +22
     237 	         -20 	                                Existance 	    36 	           -1 	      27 	             -2
     238 	         +23 	                             La Hermandad 	    36 	           +2 	       8 	             +1
     239 	          +9 	                           Allthing Jarls 	    36 	           +1 	      41 	             -4
     240 	         -15 	                  The Angels of Vengeance 	    36 	           +0 	      91 	             -6
     241 	          +5 	                               La Familia 	    36 	           +1 	      33 	             +5
     242 	         +12 	                             Holy Rollers 	    36 	           +1 	      10 	             +2
     243 	         -11 	                Company of the Black Hand 	    36 	           +0 	      12 	             -3
     244 	         +54 	               Society Of The Red Dragons 	    36 	           +3 	      59 	            +10
     245 	         -10 	               Coven of the Crystal Flame 	    36 	           +0 	      92 	            -11
     246 	          +6 	                          Knights Of Pain 	    36 	           +1 	      43 	             -1
     247 	         +11 	                         Shadows of Myths 	    36 	           +2 	      10 	             -1
     248 	         -15 	                        tactical teamwork 	    36 	           +0 	      41 	             -1
     249 	         +37 	                      Vastagos del Dragon 	    36 	           +3 	      31 	             +6
     250 	         -13 	                              Shieldguild 	    35 	           +0 	      34 	             -1
     251 	         +44 	          The Souls Of Forgotten Warriors 	    35 	           +2 	      74 	             +4
     252 	         +65 	                      Nuntii Apocalyptici 	    35 	           +3 	      12 	             -1
     253 	         -11 	                                    angel 	    35 	           +0 	      12 	             +0
     254 	         -10 	                                  MustDie 	    35 	           +0 	      18 	             +1
     255 	         -17 	                                  Gravity 	    35 	           +0 	      21 	             +0
     256 	         -17 	                          Drows Gone Wild 	    35 	           +0 	      50 	             +0
     257 	          +5 	                            Irresponsible 	    35 	           +1 	      22 	             +0
     258 	         -17 	                             Ancient Ones 	    35 	           +0 	      14 	             +2
     259 	          -9 	              Monday night Rehabilitation 	    35 	           +0 	      41 	             +4
     260 	         -20 	                               the Exiled 	    35 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     261 	        +126 	                          Fearless Kiters 	    35 	           +6 	      74 	            +32
     262 	          +1 	           Exterminate Annihilate Destroy 	    35 	           +1 	      79 	             -9
     263 	          -7 	             Brothers of the Fallen Table 	    35 	           +1 	      45 	             +0
     264 	         +33 	                               Happy Hogs 	    35 	           +2 	      14 	             +2
     265 	         +39 	                             Fearsum FIVE 	    35 	           +3 	      53 	             -1
     266 	         +25 	                          Abyssal Dragons 	    35 	           +2 	      24 	             +0
     267 	         +15 	                                Contagion 	    35 	           +2 	      67 	             +1
     268 	         -23 	             Antidisestablishmentarianism 	    35 	           +0 	      14 	             +0
     269 	         +16 	                           Avalon's Elite 	    35 	           +2 	      98 	             -1
     270 	          +2 	                  People's Front of Judea 	    35 	           +2 	      20 	             +0
     271 	          -5 	                        Ohio Street Posse 	    35 	           +1 	      53 	             +1
     272 	         -25 	                         Seekers Of Faith 	    35 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     273 	         -13 	                          Shadow Alliance 	    35 	           +1 	      17 	             +0
     274 	         -19 	                                 GAHP'ers 	    35 	           +1 	      16 	             -2
     275 	          -1 	                  Aventureros Legendarios 	    35 	           +2 	      20 	             +2
     276 	         -25 	                                    Ttayp 	    35 	           +0 	      20 	             +0
     277 	         +49 	                       Form Over Function 	    35 	           +4 	      24 	             +5
     278 	         -11 	                                        o 	    35 	           +1 	      41 	             +2
     279 	          +9 	                        Alianza de Locnor 	    35 	           +2 	      20 	             +0
     280 	         -27 	                              A Irmandade 	    35 	           +0 	      14 	             +0
     281 	         -13 	               The Exploited Horror Epics 	    34 	           +0 	       6 	             -1
     282 	         +34 	                                  Furions 	    34 	           +2 	      21 	             +6
     283 	         -18 	                            Dragon's Hand 	    34 	           +0 	      16 	             -6
     284 	         -25 	                         The Lightbearers 	    34 	           +0 	      21 	             -1
     285 	         -28 	                             Hates People 	    34 	           +0 	      15 	             +0
     286 	         +13 	                                  Renshai 	    34 	           +2 	      25 	             +0
     287 	          -8 	                    The Adventurers' Club 	    34 	           +1 	      11 	             -1
     288 	        +287 	                            Dragons Reign 	    34 	           +9 	     629 	            +71
     289 	         -11 	               GUARDIAN'S OF THE HEAVEN'S 	    34 	           +1 	     150 	            +25
     290 	         +34 	             Knights Of Dining Table KODT 	    34 	           +3 	      45 	             +1
     291 	         +17 	              Alchemists and Necromancers 	    34 	           +2 	       3 	             +0
     292 	         +43 	                     Van Norman Crusaders 	    34 	           +3 	      73 	            +10
     293 	         +22 	                        le trio and other 	    34 	           +2 	      32 	             +6
     294 	         -13 	                           Tiamat's Reign 	    34 	           +1 	      33 	             +0
     295 	         +89 	                             NightWalkers 	    34 	           +5 	      15 	             -2
     296 	          -2 	                              Shadowlords 	    34 	           +1 	      40 	             -2
     297 	         -33 	                                Parthenon 	    34 	           +0 	       8 	             +0
     298 	          -8 	                             Tinted Faces 	    34 	           +1 	     167 	             +1
     299 	        +105 	                          Sword of Legend 	    34 	           +5 	      28 	             +0
     300 	          -8 	                          The Eternal Few 	    34 	           +1 	      48 	             +0
     301 	          +9 	                              Hammer Time 	    34 	           +2 	      24 	             -2
     302 	         -15 	                        The Tangent Group 	    34 	           +1 	      32 	             +0
     303 	        +113 	            Order Of The Translucent Skin 	    34 	           +6 	      61 	            +20
     304 	         +17 	                          Dragons Destiny 	    34 	           +3 	     401 	            -58
     305 	         -36 	                             King's Blood 	    34 	           +0 	      42 	             -2
     306 	         -36 	                          Property Damage 	    33 	           +0 	      48 	             +0
     307 	         -36 	                                 QCKILLER 	    33 	           +0 	      20 	             +0
     308 	         -35 	                     Five Dollar Footlong 	    33 	           +0 	      23 	             +0
     309 	         -32 	                 Cult of Random Encounter 	    33 	           +0 	      18 	             -9
     310 	        +174 	                             Legend Bound 	    33 	           +6 	      24 	             -7
     311 	         +33 	                   La flamme et le glaive 	    33 	           +2 	     111 	            +30
     312 	         -37 	                           eternal ownage 	    33 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     313 	         -30 	                     Legion of the Dragon 	    33 	           +0 	      78 	             -5
     314 	         -13 	                          Blood and Grace 	    33 	           +1 	      23 	             -9
     315 	         +36 	                                    Smoke 	    33 	           +3 	      78 	             +0
     316 	         -36 	                      I Pull God's Finger 	    33 	           +0 	      18 	             +0
     317 	          -6 	                           Chaos Gamblers 	    33 	           +1 	       5 	             -2
     318 	         -34 	                        Jokers and Fiends 	    33 	           +0 	      13 	             +0
     319 	         +13 	                               Hamburgers 	    33 	           +2 	      18 	             -7
     320 	         -44 	                             Battle Crows 	    33 	           +0 	      60 	             -2
     321 	         -32 	                      Knights of Septoria 	    33 	           +0 	      14 	             +0
     322 	         -29 	                      Legends of Greyhawk 	    33 	           +0 	      20 	             +0
     323 	          +2 	                              World War Z 	    33 	           +2 	      41 	             -3
     324 	         +25 	                      Paper Street co ink 	    33 	           +3 	      16 	             +0
     325 	          +2 	                               Justaguild 	    33 	           +2 	      18 	             +0
     326 	         +71 	                               Mudcutters 	    33 	           +4 	      20 	             +1
     327 	         +13 	                   Brotherhood of Mutants 	    33 	           +2 	      24 	             +1
     328 	         -32 	                Knights Of The Apocalypse 	    33 	           +0 	       5 	             +0
     329 	         +98 	                        Shadows of Ezaria 	    33 	           +5 	     112 	            -19
     330 	        +146 	                         The Floydinators 	    33 	           +6 	      33 	             +4
     331 	         +30 	                     Smash Slash and Bash 	    33 	           +3 	      11 	             +2
     332 	         -18 	                           Demonic Tutors 	    33 	           +1 	      45 	             +1
     333 	        +147 	                           Dragons of Old 	    33 	           +6 	      71 	            +29
     334 	         +14 	                            Ghostcrawlers 	    32 	           +2 	      30 	             +5
     335 	         -15 	                     The Natural Twenties 	    32 	           +1 	      15 	             +2
     336 	         +52 	                         Fangs of Despair 	    32 	           +3 	      37 	             +1
     337 	         +17 	                IOIst GiantHold Airbourne 	    32 	           +2 	      13 	             +1
     338 	         -33 	                     Shades of the Dragon 	    32 	           +0 	      16 	             +0
     339 	         -33 	                                Lusitania 	    32 	           +0 	      18 	             -2
     340 	         -37 	                       Terrorismo Interno 	    32 	           +0 	      75 	             -1
     341 	        +363 	                         May Contain Nuts 	    32 	           +9 	      21 	             +8
     342 	         +14 	                     Order of Alexandrite 	    32 	           +2 	      22 	             +2
     343 	         -41 	                               Adult Swim 	    32 	           +0 	      11 	             -2
     344 	          -8 	            Order of the Shimmering Light 	    32 	           +1 	      22 	             +3
     345 	         -38 	                                      KMA 	    32 	           +0 	      29 	             -1
     346 	         -37 	                          Baldar all bold 	    32 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     347 	          +3 	                   Sphere of Annihilation 	    32 	           +2 	      56 	             +2
     348 	         +10 	                     Ehlona's Shocktroops 	    32 	           +2 	      39 	             -1
     349 	         -37 	                         Bearded Badasses 	    32 	           +0 	      19 	             -2
     350 	         -20 	                     Defenders of Inhaian 	    32 	           +1 	      30 	             +1
     351 	         +11 	                              Dark Angels 	    32 	           +2 	      40 	             +1
     352 	         -11 	                               Freelanced 	    32 	           +1 	       9 	             -2
     353 	         +71 	                Dark Raiders of the SMOTU 	    32 	           +4 	      17 	             +5
     354 	         -35 	                                   Wicked 	    32 	           +0 	      35 	             -3
     355 	         +27 	                            House Gremlin 	    32 	           +3 	      44 	             +3
     356 	         -34 	                            Celtic Europe 	    32 	           +1 	       3 	             -2
     357 	         -34 	                    Death by Misadventure 	    31 	           +0 	      38 	             +0
     358 	         -40 	                    Shadow Thieves of Amn 	    31 	           -1 	       5 	             -1
     359 	         -30 	                           A Cunning Plan 	    31 	           +0 	      16 	             +1
     360 	         -32 	                      Home for Lost Souls 	    31 	           +0 	       6 	             -1
     361 	         +12 	                               Eightyfive 	    31 	           +1 	      22 	             +1
     362 	         -15 	                         Nokturne Society 	    31 	           +1 	      34 	             +0
     363 	          -4 	             The Brotherhood of Misclicks 	    31 	           +1 	      24 	             +0
     364 	         -33 	                            Om Nom Nom XD 	    31 	           +0 	       9 	             +0
     365 	        +393 	                            TwoBoxKnights 	    31 	           +9 	      50 	             +6
     366 	         +23 	                        ReTerds The Brave 	    31 	           +2 	      11 	             +3
     367 	          +2 	                          Inferi Venatori 	    31 	           +1 	      34 	             -4
     368 	         -22 	                                       Us 	    31 	           +1 	      16 	             +0
     369 	         +49 	            Survivor's of the Shadow Wars 	    31 	           +3 	      20 	             +6
     370 	         -33 	                         Githyanki Legion 	    31 	           +0 	      11 	             +0
     371 	          -5 	                                   Luxate 	    31 	           +1 	      57 	             -1
     372 	         +56 	                       is better than you 	    31 	           +3 	      20 	             -3
     373 	         -21 	                     Keepers of the Cross 	    31 	           +1 	      16 	             +1
     374 	         -36 	              Unicorn Bacon Cheeseburgers 	    31 	           +0 	      47 	             +0
     375 	         -30 	                            Oni Yama Clan 	    31 	           +1 	      14 	             +0
     376 	         -43 	                        Eye of the Dragon 	    31 	           +0 	      31 	             -5
     377 	         +17 	                                Epicocity 	    31 	           +2 	       7 	             -1
     378 	         -35 	                       Hells Chosen Elite 	    30 	           -1 	      32 	             -1
     379 	         -16 	                             Fractal Mind 	    30 	           +0 	      15 	             +0
     380 	         -38 	                   Bastardos Inglorios BR 	    30 	           -1 	      34 	             -2
     381 	         +66 	                            Khyber's Kids 	    30 	           +2 	      27 	             -3
     382 	         -10 	                                   Utopie 	    30 	           +0 	      29 	             -1
     383 	         -30 	                  Against All Authorities 	    30 	           +0 	      10 	             +0
     384 	         +21 	                                    Gypsy 	    30 	           +1 	       3 	             +0
     385 	         -30 	                          Hammer of Torag 	    30 	           +0 	       7 	             +0
     386 	         -29 	                     The Unusual Suspects 	    30 	           +0 	      36 	             -4
     387 	          +8 	                               We Are One 	    30 	           +1 	       8 	             +1
     388 	         +12 	                                  Reality 	    30 	           +1 	       4 	             +0
     389 	         -25 	                                 Acadimia 	    30 	           +0 	      31 	             +1
     390 	         +84 	              Knights of the Shadewalkers 	    30 	           +3 	      46 	             -8
     391 	          +8 	                    Adventurers Anonymous 	    30 	           +1 	      43 	             +0
     392 	          +4 	                       Covenant of Teslos 	    30 	           +1 	      52 	             +1
     393 	         -16 	                        The Last Alliance 	    30 	           +1 	      15 	             +0
     394 	         -34 	                                   Boredl 	    30 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     395 	         -15 	            Black Hen Adventuring Company 	    30 	           +1 	      21 	             +0
     396 	         -31 	                      Big Fat Lazy Gamers 	    30 	           +0 	       8 	             -2
     397 	          -6 	                                 Anathema 	    30 	           +1 	      13 	             -1
     398 	         -30 	                             Ladies Night 	    30 	           +0 	       7 	             +0
     399 	         -32 	                         cacodemo unclear 	    30 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     400 	          +7 	                               nickel bag 	    30 	           +1 	      40 	             +2
     401 	         -30 	                             The Agnolots 	    30 	           +0 	      17 	             +0
     402 	         -32 	                              Dawn Of War 	    30 	           +0 	       3 	             -1
     403 	         -25 	                            Bloody Blades 	    30 	           +1 	      18 	             +0
     404 	         -30 	                              Heroes home 	    30 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     405 	         -29 	                                IronLance 	    30 	           +0 	       7 	             +0
     406 	        +132 	                          Death Incarnate 	    30 	           +4 	      37 	            +18
     407 	         +42 	                         The Dungeon Crew 	    29 	           +1 	      15 	             +0
     408 	          +9 	                            Hakkapelliita 	    29 	           +1 	      13 	             +0
     409 	         -30 	                                Einherjar 	    29 	           +0 	       4 	             +0
     410 	         -35 	                                 Red Wind 	    29 	           -1 	       4 	             -1
     411 	         -18 	                      Talon of the Dragon 	    29 	           +0 	      15 	             +1
     412 	          +7 	                             Union Strong 	    29 	           +1 	      16 	             +0
     413 	         -27 	                     Das dreizehnte Corps 	    29 	           +0 	      53 	             +0
     414 	         -31 	                        Backslash Reavers 	    29 	           +0 	      11 	             +0
     415 	         -25 	                               iron Blood 	    29 	           +0 	       9 	             +0
     416 	         -31 	                                Holy Shiz 	    29 	           +0 	      20 	             +0
     417 	          -2 	                               The Blades 	    29 	           +1 	     144 	             -1
     418 	         +60 	                              Last Scions 	    29 	           +2 	      15 	             -1
     419 	         +18 	                            Wayward Girls 	    29 	           +1 	      23 	             -7
     420 	          +6 	                     Disciples Of Anarchy 	    29 	           +1 	      18 	             +2
     421 	         -23 	                      Patanes y Mazmorras 	    29 	           +0 	      32 	            -10
     422 	         +18 	                   Aventureiros de Faerun 	    29 	           +1 	      28 	             +0
     423 	         -31 	                    Seekers of Stormreach 	    29 	           +0 	      34 	             -3
     424 	         -18 	                                    ANZAC 	    29 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     425 	        +424 	                         The Ninth Legion 	    29 	          +28 	      11 	            +10
     426 	         -25 	                St Brutus's Secure Center 	    29 	           +0 	      15 	             +0
     427 	        +276 	                                   Plan M 	    29 	           +6 	      21 	             +1
     428 	          +5 	                        Weak End Warriors 	    29 	           +1 	      16 	             -3
     429 	         -27 	                                   Whatev 	    29 	           +0 	      10 	             +0
     430 	         -27 	                                 Dark Sun 	    29 	           +0 	       6 	             -5
     431 	         -23 	                            Unknown Souls 	    29 	           +0 	      40 	             -3
     432 	         -19 	                           Lunatik Frynge 	    29 	           +1 	      24 	             +5
     433 	         +62 	                        Legends of Kesmai 	    29 	           +2 	      20 	             +5
     434 	         +53 	                         the mysty forest 	    29 	           +2 	      17 	             +2
     435 	         -26 	                                   Brasil 	    29 	           +0 	      11 	             +0
     436 	         -26 	                                Unfavored 	    29 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     437 	         +95 	            It's okay I'll get your stone 	    29 	           +3 	      49 	             +6
     438 	         -18 	                        Disposable Heroes 	    29 	           +1 	      35 	             +0
     439 	        +327 	                          Avian Incendium 	    29 	           +7 	      29 	             -1
     440 	         -29 	                           Madtown Robots 	    29 	           +1 	       2 	             +0
     441 	         +10 	                           Maker's Choice 	    28 	           +0 	      32 	             +0
     442 	         +11 	                            Animal Legion 	    28 	           +0 	      47 	            -44
     443 	         -62 	                      Architects of Agony 	    28 	           -1 	       8 	            -10
     444 	         -32 	                Order of the Seven Towers 	    28 	           +0 	       1 	             +0
     445 	         -22 	                Brotherhood of the wolves 	    28 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     446 	         -32 	                           Not Applicable 	    28 	           +0 	       9 	             +0
     447 	         -26 	                             Made in CCCP 	    28 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     448 	         -26 	                             Dragonblades 	    28 	           +0 	      21 	             +0
     449 	         +19 	                         Bay City Knights 	    28 	           +1 	      20 	             +0
     450 	         +29 	                                BIG TURKS 	    28 	           +1 	      16 	             +0
     451 	         +10 	                                      DOA 	    28 	           +1 	      22 	             +0
     452 	         +90 	                             Walking Dead 	    28 	           +3 	      21 	             +2
     453 	         -28 	             Everythings Better With Fire 	    28 	           +0 	      21 	             +1
     454 	         -18 	                           Den of Courage 	    28 	           +0 	      10 	             -4
     455 	        +156 	                       House of Stormborn 	    28 	           +3 	      23 	             +1
     456 	        +145 	                       Explorer's Society 	    28 	           +3 	      18 	             +0
     457 	         -27 	                               No Remorse 	    28 	           +0 	      20 	             +0
     458 	          +0 	                Pabst Blue Ribbon Brigade 	    28 	           +1 	      33 	             +1
     459 	         -30 	         Le Clan des combatants du Quebec 	    28 	           +0 	       9 	             -1
     460 	         -19 	                         Mufle i Kopylaki 	    28 	           +0 	      13 	             +0
     461 	          +6 	                       This Clan is a Lie 	    28 	           +1 	      10 	             +0
     462 	         -27 	            Adamantium Dragon Mercenaries 	    28 	           +0 	      50 	             +0
     463 	          -8 	             The Order of the Chumpmonkey 	    28 	           +0 	      44 	             +4
     464 	          -7 	                         Stars Of Destiny 	    28 	           +1 	      11 	            -11
     465 	         -31 	                   Gamers Radio Battalion 	    28 	           +0 	      24 	             -1
     466 	         -35 	                        UnitedWookieFront 	    28 	           +0 	       9 	             +0
     467 	         -35 	                        The Tasty Morsels 	    28 	           +0 	      30 	             +0
     468 	         -16 	                Les Chevaliers Du Lys Roy 	    28 	           +0 	      26 	             +0
     469 	         -25 	                 Knights Who say Ni Mabar 	    28 	           +0 	      44 	             +0
     470 	         +43 	                       Cabal of the SPORK 	    28 	           +2 	      11 	             -1
     471 	          +2 	                               powerslave 	    28 	           +1 	      15 	             +1
     472 	        +147 	                         Forgotten Realms 	    28 	           +4 	      91 	            +17
     473 	          -9 	                           The Unlikelies 	    28 	           +1 	      24 	             -1
     474 	         -29 	             Eberron Dwarf Tossing League 	    28 	           +0 	      41 	             +0
     475 	         -36 	                                     once 	    28 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     476 	         -38 	            The Warders of Eastern Barony 	    28 	           +0 	      15 	             +0
     477 	        +553 	                                   berrys 	    28 	           +9 	      17 	            +10
     478 	         -32 	                      Squirrels Gone Wild 	    28 	           +0 	      37 	             -1
     479 	         -37 	                                    Sneak 	    28 	           +0 	      16 	             +0
     480 	         -37 	                           no pugs for us 	    28 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     481 	         -33 	                            Fortune Point 	    28 	           +0 	      18 	             +0
     482 	        +133 	                             The Wolfclan 	    28 	           +3 	      31 	             +0
     483 	         +23 	                      DeathAndDevastation 	    28 	           +2 	      38 	             -1
     484 	         +47 	                  The Juggernauts of Cyre 	    28 	           +2 	      27 	             +7
     485 	         -35 	                       of The Hill People 	    28 	           +0 	      13 	             +0
     486 	         +36 	                  The Empires Brute Squad 	    28 	           +2 	      23 	             +0
     487 	         +15 	                       The Red Right Hand 	    28 	           +2 	      34 	             +5
     488 	        +100 	                            Winter Blades 	    28 	           +3 	      23 	             +0
     489 	         -33 	                                 diceevil 	    27 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     490 	         +34 	                          La Garde Fatale 	    27 	           +1 	      13 	             +0
     491 	        +151 	                                 TenebraS 	    27 	           +3 	      45 	             +1
     492 	         -38 	                        Redheaded Wenches 	    27 	           -1 	      13 	             -1
     493 	          +6 	                      Steel And Ingenuity 	    27 	           +1 	      38 	             +1
     494 	         -34 	                        Heavens Assassins 	    27 	           +0 	     185 	            -84
     495 	          +2 	                 Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum 	    27 	           +1 	      10 	             +0
     496 	         -14 	                       Numenorian Knights 	    27 	           +0 	      27 	             -1
     497 	         -32 	                             The Iron Men 	    27 	           +0 	      24 	             +0
     498 	        +275 	                              Speed Demon 	    27 	           +5 	      14 	             +1
     499 	         -40 	         League of Extortionary Gentlemen 	    27 	           +0 	      25 	             +0
     500 	         -38 	                                   Reborn 	    27 	           +0 	      14 	             +0
     501 	         -20 	                          Big Red Machine 	    27 	           +0 	      13 	             +0
     502 	         -39 	                      Mel Gibson Fan Club 	    27 	           +0 	      10 	             +0
     503 	         +40 	                 Two Camels In a Tiny Car 	    27 	           +2 	      18 	             -2
     504 	         -34 	                 Obsidian Carriage Riders 	    27 	           +0 	      54 	             +1
     505 	        +105 	                                Ransacked 	    27 	           +2 	      67 	             +2
     506 	         -40 	                             Planar Peeps 	    27 	           +0 	      15 	             +0
     507 	          +3 	                        Fraenkischer Bund 	    27 	           +1 	      19 	             +2
     508 	        +465 	                        Twilight Dreamers 	    27 	           +8 	     100 	            +14
     509 	         +55 	                          Dragon Adopters 	    27 	           +2 	      18 	             -2
     510 	         -39 	                        House Khaleenshar 	    27 	           +0 	       5 	             +0
     511 	         -42 	                      Templars Of Ebberon 	    27 	           +0 	      24 	             +0
     512 	         -37 	                     Anything Goes School 	    27 	           +0 	      24 	             +0
     513 	         +12 	                                  AnadDul 	    27 	           +1 	      11 	             +0
     514 	         -37 	                        Magnificent Seven 	    27 	           +0 	       9 	             +0
     515 	         -15 	                                DEATH ROW 	    27 	           +1 	       8 	             +0
     516 	         +82 	                  Independent Adventurers 	    27 	           +2 	      24 	             +5
     517 	        +221 	                              Ice Dragons 	    27 	           +5 	      26 	             +7
     518 	        +105 	                          KNIGHTS OF MYTH 	    27 	           +3 	      13 	             +1
     519 	          -7 	                          Legion Invictus 	    27 	           +1 	       2 	             +0
     520 	         +64 	                     Cult of the Ancients 	    27 	           +2 	       4 	             -1
     521 	         -38 	         Knights of teh North Forty Ninth 	    27 	           +0 	      10 	             +0
     522 	         -13 	                           Les Tenebrants 	    27 	           +1 	      43 	             +3
     523 	         -38 	                         Legends of Valor 	    27 	           +0 	      29 	             +0
     524 	         -10 	                             Dreadnaughts 	    27 	           +1 	      20 	             -3
     525 	         -39 	                                Dark Wish 	    27 	           +0 	       3 	             +1
     526 	         -19 	                            Storm Dragons 	    27 	           +1 	       8 	             -7
     527 	         -36 	                                     IRIS 	    27 	           +0 	      19 	             +0
     528 	         +65 	                 Hafling long Jump league 	    27 	           +2 	      20 	             +0
     529 	        +151 	                                 Sundered 	    27 	           +4 	      19 	             +3
     530 	         -42 	                                    Amera 	    27 	           +0 	      12 	             +0
     531 	         -38 	               The Warriors Of ShadowClan 	    27 	           +0 	       8 	             -1
     532 	         -43 	                          House Baen'Afin 	    27 	           +0 	       4 	             +0
     533 	          +8 	               Order of the Crystal Flame 	    27 	           +2 	       9 	             +0
     534 	         -44 	              The Brethren Before Wenches 	    27 	           +0 	      26 	             +0
     535 	         -43 	                   Profecias de Candelero 	    27 	           +0 	       7 	             -2
     536 	         -42 	                               PW Players 	    27 	           +0 	      18 	             +0
     537 	         -41 	                     The Last Alliance BR 	    26 	           +0 	       8 	             +0
     538 	         -30 	                Guild of Careless Killers 	    26 	           +0 	      34 	             -2
     539 	        +104 	                           Nytethrash INC 	    26 	           +2 	       6 	             +1
     540 	         -42 	                             Golden Triad 	    26 	           +0 	      25 	             -1
     541 	          +9 	                              Nacho Guild 	    26 	           +1 	      34 	             -1
     542 	         +75 	               The Gray Rose of Llandorin 	    26 	           +1 	      32 	             +7
     543 	         -23 	                      Fluffybunny killers 	    26 	           +0 	      44 	             +0
     544 	        +131 	                NIGHTMARE of RAININGBLOOD 	    26 	           +3 	      10 	             +5
     545 	        +322 	                          Bad Company Inc 	    26 	           +5 	      52 	            +15
     546 	         -45 	           The BrotherHood Of DragonLords 	    26 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     547 	         -42 	                 Remnants of the Last War 	    26 	           +0 	      16 	             +0
     548 	         +18 	                           Clan Holderbek 	    26 	           +1 	      13 	             +0
     549 	         -46 	                        The Night Killers 	    26 	           +0 	       6 	             -1
     550 	         +20 	                     Wizards and Warriors 	    26 	           +1 	       7 	             +1
     551 	         -47 	                    Bikinis and Chainmail 	    26 	           +0 	       8 	             +0
     552 	         +51 	                                ONE GUILD 	    26 	           +1 	      29 	             +2
     553 	         -37 	                        Fearsomely Fabled 	    26 	           +0 	      26 	             -1
     554 	         -39 	                                 da tribe 	    26 	           +0 	       4 	             -3
     555 	         -15 	                       Shriners Anonymous 	    26 	           +1 	      42 	             +0
     556 	         +56 	              The People's Front of Judea 	    26 	           +1 	      10 	             -2
     557 	         -46 	                      Les Francs Ligueurs 	    26 	           +0 	      25 	             +0
     558 	        +378 	                        Elgin Dracul Clan 	    26 	           +6 	     258 	           +171
     559 	         -41 	                     Les Seigneurs du Lys 	    26 	           +0 	      18 	             +0
     560 	        +839 	                        World of Darkness 	    26 	          +10 	      13 	             +7
     561 	         -42 	                      Whisper in the dark 	    26 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     562 	          -1 	                        Heroes of Eberron 	    26 	           +1 	      18 	             +0
     563 	         -46 	                     Rogue Dragon Hunters 	    26 	           +0 	      91 	             -1
     564 	        +566 	                    Defenders of the Line 	    26 	           +8 	      26 	            +11
     565 	         +73 	                     The Kings of Special 	    26 	           +2 	      14 	             +0
     566 	         -45 	                                      MOG 	    26 	           +0 	       9 	             -9
     567 	         -41 	                            Liberi Fatali 	    26 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     568 	         -41 	                 We are One We are Legion 	    26 	           +0 	       3 	             +0
     569 	         +35 	                            The True Gods 	    26 	           +1 	       4 	             +0
     570 	         -24 	                Wanders of Time Gone Past 	    26 	           +1 	      12 	             +0
     571 	         -43 	                         Prevailing Truth 	    26 	           +0 	      16 	             +0
     572 	        +931 	                      Champions of Asgard 	    26 	          +11 	     182 	            +50
     573 	         -44 	                           Light Guardian 	    26 	           +0 	       2 	             +0
     574 	         +40 	                       La Legion De Honor 	    26 	           +1 	       7 	             +0
     575 	         -45 	              Knights of The Black Circle 	    26 	           +0 	      26 	             +0
     576 	        +219 	                            Dead Rabbit's 	    26 	           +4 	      27 	            +13
     577 	         +57 	                         Coon and Friends 	    26 	           +2 	       8 	             +0
     578 	          +3 	                      The Master's Circle 	    26 	           +1 	      24 	             +0
     579 	         -22 	                        Wayward Wanderers 	    26 	           +1 	      14 	             +0
     580 	        +272 	                              Metallicats 	    26 	           +5 	       5 	             -5
     581 	         -48 	                         House of Tuonela 	    26 	           +0 	      28 	             +0
     582 	         -27 	                 D'Anse D'Anse Revolution 	    26 	           +1 	      27 	             +0
     583 	         -49 	                    One Three Three Seven 	    26 	           +0 	       6 	             +0
     584 	         -40 	                         Legion of Legend 	    26 	           +1 	      35 	             -4
     585 	         -48 	                               Fishsticks 	    26 	           +0 	      22 	             +0
     586 	         -50 	                               MARS semle 	    26 	           +0 	      18 	             +0
     587 	         -52 	                                The Reign 	    26 	           +0 	       7 	             +0
     588 	          -8 	                  The Cold Iron Tesseract 	    26 	           +1 	      11 	             +5
     589 	         -50 	                          Beer and coffee 	    26 	           +0 	       2 	             +0
     590 	         -43 	                              Iron Wolves 	    26 	           +1 	      12 	             +1
    Some Numbers for reference:
    Of the 9,048 Guilds on Argo, 1,043 are level 20 or higher.
    im leader of nightmare of raining blood just me and my bro

  15. #55
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Atenhotep View Post
    No. I do not believe that is correct. I believe the renown system does not favor large guilds nor does it favor small guilds. I believe it favors active players (if your goal is to increase in Guild Level).

    I believe the link I posted by the gentleman from Overraided lays it out nicely.

    I also believe that a HUGE guild comprised of all powers gamers who all collect unemployment and have no life other than just playing DDO would move very quickly up the renown ladder.

    But I also believe that science should unite an Penguin, a meerkat and a koala bear to make one of the cutets pets ever. But that's another topic.

    In any case, I appreciate the information you have presented and in that current form it looks like there is a great difference, I'm just not sure it is entirely accurate given the parameters I discussed. (Power gamers vs casual players) whereas the post I linked seems very accurate.

    Thanks,
    Aten
    What makes Osh's math wrong in your opinion?

    Two guilds with players of equal dedication will get different results with the smaller guild doing better. Where is his math wrong?

  16. #56
    Community Member TURIN35RBAL2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    81

    Thumbs up The system and aten

    I'm still trying to figure out how this is news. Maximizing the cap of medium lvl guild does seem not only more efficient (members vs active members vs casual "idle" members) but also requires less management (which seems to be commonplace lately). This was discovered when rise of the guilds came out. Also, just be sure that after recruiting too many members, and realizing they are messing up your decay, that you are nice to them when you fire them. Cuz really, it's your own fault. The best part: Is who really cares what our scores are anyway? Does another +1 or +2 to a stat put you in another world? I can't say i've heard one one member or account that said "I want to join their guild because they have a +2 str shrine". Noooo. I like the altars for GS, cuz I am lazy. Other than that. I really could care less what buff I have. And since we have a spreadsheet people are citing about who has the "tightest" guild, that really isn't resolving anything. Eventually all guilds are going to have similar buffs and everyone will be right about the same place. This happens every few years in this game. This is not news, and please; don't struggle over these matters. Enjoy the people you meet and their company.

    And hatep, you sound so cute when you start spitting out formulas.

    -turi
    "What goes around, comes around; that's Karma"


    Turinde-Tureen-Turind-Gaebrielus

  17. #57
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TURIN35RBAL2 View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how this is news.
    It shouldn't be. The main reason that I bothered to get involved, is because some of the people I know are being accused of handing out misinformation in multiple threads for stating accurately how the system is currently working. Now, the reasons the system works that way are totally debatable.
    Maximizing the cap of medium lvl guild does seem not only more efficient (members vs active members vs casual "idle" members) but also requires less management (which seems to be commonplace lately). This was discovered when rise of the guilds came out. Also, just be sure that after recruiting too many members, and realizing they are messing up your decay, that you are nice to them when you fire them. Cuz really, it's your own fault. The best part: Is who really cares what our scores are anyway? Does another +1 or +2 to a stat put you in another world?

    I can't say i've heard one one member or account that said "I want to join their guild because they have a +2 str shrine".
    Among all our members, we get somewhere between 5-20 random tells a day from people asking if they can join our guild, depending on how busy the server is. Most people accept a polite "sorry, we're not recruiting", but there have been a few more persistent people.
    Noooo. I like the altars for GS, cuz I am lazy. Other than that. I really could care less what buff I have. And since we have a spreadsheet people are citing about who has the "tightest" guild, that really isn't resolving anything.
    I agree with whoever posted that deciding which guild you want to join based solely on guild level is dumb.
    Eventually all guilds are going to have similar buffs and everyone will be right about the same place. This happens every few years in this game. This is not news, and please; don't struggle over these matters. Enjoy the people you meet and their company.

    And hatep, you sound so cute when you start spitting out formulas.
    Heh. If he was actually spitting out formulas instead of opinions or links, this thread would have been a lot shorter.

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  18. #58
    Community Member TURIN35RBAL2's Avatar
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    Post =p~

    Your welcome.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Atenhotep's Avatar
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    I'm just going to direct you here:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=218

    Doing the same simulation with a 100-account guild that wanted to reach level 100 in the same amount of time, it turns out that it would need to gain 3834 base renown per account per day. A 200-account guild would need to gain 3488 base renown per account per day -- just 3.35% more than the 3375 level-based renown decay multiplier at level 100, while an 18-account guild's 4367 represents 29.4% more. The graph is below:
    And really I'm done arguing this.

    Osharan, you put forth good arguments and I appreciate that. I think we're just looking at the same evidence and seeing different things. I don't know.

    Best Wishes,
    Aten

  20. #60
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    What makes Osh's math wrong in your opinion?

    Two guilds with players of equal dedication will get different results with the smaller guild doing better. Where is his math wrong?
    His chart seems accurate enough but all it shows that guilds of 4-43accounts will tend to reach slightly higher equilibrium levels than he rest of the guild range. Note that 50 accounts is the worst place to be since as guilds get more members past this point the decay per account drops until it hits 101% of base Of 1000 accounts. What osh fails to note is that large guilds get to said equilibrium in months while small guilds in the sweet spot range get there in years or decades. Slow and steady might win out but only if DDO is here in ten years.


    For the vast vast vast vast majority of a guilds life they will not be concerned with equilibrium, but with growth rates. It is indisputable that a large guild will out level a small guild assuming all players are equally active. The exception is at or near equilibrium, which I maintain is irrelevant for 99% of a guilds life.

    Edit: you could think of it as big guilds get cake NOW but small guilds get better cake much much later.

    In any case a fair way to make the system would be that each guild level requires a base be multiplied by number of accounts and suffers decay also proportional to accounts. This would allow the removal of small guild bonuses and let every guild advance at their activity level rate rather than boosting large guilds at first and having them hit the brakes near the end. For example a lvl 10 guild with 5 people might need 50000 renown to advance but a lvl 10 guild with 50 accounts would need 500,000.

    Of course such a system woe require safeguards to prevent exploits by playing with guild size but I can think of several ways to do this that I may type out once I'm on a computer rather than an iPhone heh
    Last edited by Lithic; 07-21-2011 at 06:37 AM.
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