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  1. #21
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    For me personally here's my breakdown on pure melee bards:
    28-32 point build: THF
    34+ point builds: TWF if taking the melee feats, THF if skipping the THF line for other feats

    My 32-point pure warchanter right now took PA, Toughness, THF line, WF: Slashing, and Extend (using Min2 only - would drop if I got a better weapon). A spellsinger version could easily swap in Maximize for WF: Slashing to the same build. A virtuoso could have their cake and eat it too, taking Extend and iCrit both (though they wouldn't have Maximize then). And of course a human gets the best of both worlds as well.

    All that said, if I were to go Spellsinger I'd want to be able to make maximum use of that sp pool for healing purposes. For me that would mean Maximize and Empower both at the very least. I'd also want Extend. So you're looking at PA, Toughness, iCrit, Maximize, Empower, Extend with one free feat. I actually took Empower Healing too. I wanted to be able to solo heal a 1 round shroud reliably and having all 3 meta's for boosting heals made a big difference there. What I didn't like when I had that build though was that I felt like I was supposed to be twitching as a THF that doesn't twitch and doesn't have the THF feats is performing sub-par compared to what they could be doing. I'm enjoying the toon a lot more now that I dumped the healing other than scrolls and focused on the melee damage.

    I actually considered going TWF on that same toon but I don't feel it has enough skill points to work well on a 32-point build. 36 pointer w/ +3 tomes though...yeah, that would fit in easily. If I were going to do that I'd be looking at a human, doing PA, Toughness, iCrit, TWF line, Maximize, and Empower. I'd bite the bullet on giving up Extend to max out those mass cure spells though I could understand someone going Maximize/Extend. In fact, if we ran more 6-man epics I'd go with Extend to make displacements last longer. If I'm mainly shrouding/ToD/VoD where you'll be using clouds instead then I'd go Max/Emp. If you wanted to sell out a bit for dps you could even go Maximize/Khopesh.

  2. #22
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    For me personally here's my breakdown on pure melee bards:
    28-32 point build: THF
    34+ point builds: TWF if taking the melee feats, THF if skipping the THF line for other feats

    My 32-point pure warchanter right now took PA, Toughness, THF line, WF: Slashing, and Extend (using Min2 only - would drop if I got a better weapon). A spellsinger version could easily swap in Maximize for WF: Slashing to the same build. A virtuoso could have their cake and eat it too, taking Extend and iCrit both (though they wouldn't have Maximize then). And of course a human gets the best of both worlds as well.

    All that said, if I were to go Spellsinger I'd want to be able to make maximum use of that sp pool for healing purposes. For me that would mean Maximize and Empower both at the very least. I'd also want Extend. So you're looking at PA, Toughness, iCrit, Maximize, Empower, Extend with one free feat. I actually took Empower Healing too. I wanted to be able to solo heal a 1 round shroud reliably and having all 3 meta's for boosting heals made a big difference there. What I didn't like when I had that build though was that I felt like I was supposed to be twitching as a THF that doesn't twitch and doesn't have the THF feats is performing sub-par compared to what they could be doing. I'm enjoying the toon a lot more now that I dumped the healing other than scrolls and focused on the melee damage.

    I actually considered going TWF on that same toon but I don't feel it has enough skill points to work well on a 32-point build. 36 pointer w/ +3 tomes though...yeah, that would fit in easily. If I were going to do that I'd be looking at a human, doing PA, Toughness, iCrit, TWF line, Maximize, and Empower. I'd bite the bullet on giving up Extend to max out those mass cure spells though I could understand someone going Maximize/Extend. In fact, if we ran more 6-man epics I'd go with Extend to make displacements last longer. If I'm mainly shrouding/ToD/VoD where you'll be using clouds instead then I'd go Max/Emp. If you wanted to sell out a bit for dps you could even go Maximize/Khopesh.
    Why should a bard with less spell points then a cleric/fvs take an extra metamagic feat for healing purposes that clerics/fvs do not typically use for healing purposes? You need to cast more then 10 mass cure spells in a raid or quest which is what your advocating overhealing and being inefficient with spell points. I have just maximize on my wc healer and only emplower healing on my spellsinger healing bard and all quests are healed just fine. Yes, I can tell you have never played a healing bard by your answers.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    THF all the way.

    You can argue till dooms day about the THF feats, but its secondary to your decision anyway.

    TWF is a pain-in-the-a$$ in the to-hit dept... and without taking the twf feats, well 4get that, your doomed. If you cant hit it, the dps math stops, nothing else matters.

    You've got your Quicken & Maximise for heals, so you can (and I would personally, at least initially) include the THF feats. Glancing blows are nice. It takes but a moment to stop, get your hits off, and move again. It only makes sense to set yourself to best utilize a two handed weapon. I love my THFs and although I still swear that they changed it, it makes sense.

    If you dont take the THF feats, and they certainly aren't necessary, you can of course boost your healing and/or CC.

    My final decision would depend on two things, how I'd like to play my spell singer, and gear. If you have torc/con op combo already, I'd seriously consider taking the Empower Healing feat. Set it on and forget it exists.

    Well, good luck on your final decision!
    I was just about to type something very close to this.

    Sure, the heavy beaters can rack up enough strength and to-hit bonuses to hit the big epic bosses and some other higher AC mobs on a 2, using TWF, no OTWF, etc, but bards are hard pressed to nail down the same level of to-hit bonuses, so I prefer to kick claw and scrape for every plus I can get.

    How ugly can it get?

    -2 TWF
    -2 No OTWF - yeap another feat just to get you back to -2 -or- use a gimpier offhand weapon.
    -2 For the khopesh freaks (heh) if the bard using THF has racials - plus one more feat to take khopesh.
    -1 Point of str mod. I can start a THF at max str and dump dex. Usually a TWF will have to start as max -2 to build the needed dex in.

    THF all the way.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I have just maximize on my wc healer and only emplower healing on my spellsinger healing bard and all quests are healed just fine. Yes, I can tell you have never played a healing bard by your answers.
    Not everyone plays with the same folks with the same build/gear layout and skill set each night. I heal differently based on the types of players in my party at the time. There are so many variables. So I really dont care about your braggadocio that you can heal your friends with maximize, one eye closed, nose in the air, while standing on your tippy-toes.

    For the typical player, your advice might or might not cut it. Quicken or maximize can really come in handy (and this from a bard who is very much into mana/cost). In today's DDO, I'd rather have the option of turning on/off a meta based on the situation I'm in at the time. The best way I've found to eliminate over-healing is to have more healing options. Metas rock if used wisely. Start at the lowest heal necessary, beefed up with the proper meta if necessary. Work your timers, and practice practice practice.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 06-20-2011 at 02:37 PM.


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  5. #25

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    I like to carry maximize and empower healing. I use maximize to qualify for spellsinger in the first place going melee bard.

    I do not always use both. I usually tend to to use sup ardor VI clickies and empower, and that works fine. I turn on maximize when I need additional healing.

    Some groups don't have the healing amp and I need a bit more, and sometimes in raids I need to heal faster and that makes a difference. I can run one, the other, or both.

    I have seen high healing amp parties where both was overkill. I was hitting some melees for 1100 hp heals in one group on crits.

    I can see using one but I can afford the SP on 2 feat most of the time so I prefer it. I used to plan out using all 3 at one point but the cost prevented it. A few expensive big heals just isn't worth it just to see big number that are over healing anyway.

    If I needed to cut a feat then it would likely be empower healing. That was my plan for completionist but I later decided I would be better off to spend that time grinding better gear instead.
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  6. #26
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    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    I think I'll go THF; my other bard is a TWF, I want to have fun finding THer epics, plus if I respec into a CC orientated bard in the future I'll be left with a weapon I can still use.

    I think 1 healing meta will do - she currently has two, so I'll see how it plays out and will swap back to two if necessary.

    Feats of:
    Toughness
    Extend
    Quicken
    Maximise
    Improve Crit
    Power Attack

    Then what?

    I assumed the THF feats would give me the greatest dps increase - should I be looking at something else?

    How does cleave stack up now that it doesn't slow down the attack sequence?
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Not everyone plays with the same folks with the same build/gear layout and skill set each night. I heal differently based on the types of players in my party at the time. There are so many variables. So I really dont care about your braggadocio that you can heal your friends with maximize, one eye closed, nose in the air, while standing on your tippy-toes.

    For the typical player, your advice might or might not cut it. Quicken or maximize can really come in handy (and this from a bard who is very much into mana/cost). In today's DDO, I'd rather have the option of turning on/off a meta based on the situation I'm in at the time. The best way I've found to eliminate over-healing is to have more healing options. Metas rock if used wisely. Start at the lowest heal necessary, beefed up with the proper meta if necessary. Work your timers, and practice practice practice.
    First of all, not sure how Mad got that I didn't play a healing bard from my answers. I actually mentioned solo healing Shrouds.

    I was mistaken though on my feats and wanted to take this post to clarify. I took Maximize, Empower, and Quicken...not Empower Healing. I knew there were 3 meta's for healing but for some reason Quicken didn't jump to mind. If you're going to heal while swinging Quicken's pretty important. I tried it without for a few raids and even with maxed con and a con item I lost some heals.

    Finally, if you've got a raid full of people running 110%+ healing amp then sure, you can get by without Max + Empower. Toss in a few warforged though that are running without healing amp and good luck getting by. Heck, I was having to scroll reconstructs in between cooldowns of Cure Light/Cure Moderate when I solo healed one of the Shrouds I PuG'd. I swear one of the wf'd barbs didn't even have healer's friend I.

    So Leslie's dead on. If you never PuG and the people you group with all have max hp's for their build and at least a bit of healing amp then you'll be absolutely fine without Empower. Heck, I've solo healed parts of eDA before on just scrolls because the healer DC'd...if the group is well geared you can get away with scroll healing in quite a few epics. If you PuG a lot though you're going to want that flexibility for times when a poorly geared group takes damage faster than Maximize alone will heal it.
    Last edited by Darkrok; 06-21-2011 at 08:56 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Thanks for the feedback guys.

    I think I'll go THF; my other bard is a TWF, I want to have fun finding THer epics, plus if I respec into a CC orientated bard in the future I'll be left with a weapon I can still use.

    I think 1 healing meta will do - she currently has two, so I'll see how it plays out and will swap back to two if necessary.

    Feats of:
    Toughness
    Extend
    Quicken
    Maximise
    Improve Crit
    Power Attack

    Then what?

    I assumed the THF feats would give me the greatest dps increase - should I be looking at something else?

    How does cleave stack up now that it doesn't slow down the attack sequence?
    EDIT:
    Now that I think of it, I'd go Cleave. I'm actually leveling up a Black Lotus build (19 rog/1 mnk) at the moment and have Cleave right now and will be taking Great Cleave next level at 12 rather than improved critical (which I'll put off until 18...not that exciting of a feat on a 20x2 crit profile). Cleave is outstanding at filling in that lack of AoE gap that melee based toons (and bards) can struggle with. I'd only take Empower over Cleave if you were making heavy use of Greater Shout and it's just not a good enough spell to use heavily.
    Last edited by Darkrok; 06-21-2011 at 08:59 AM.

  9. #29
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Just go warchanter, if your gonna melee.. Thats the melee pre. Doesn't make sense to focus 4+ feats into melee and take the wrong pre imo.

    Bards are jacks of all trades, masters of none.. If you REALLY generalize like that, you really wont be that good at anything - i meand youd be a low dps melee, that doesn't really benefit your groups overall melee dps as well as you could.. Gota focus in some way imo. And looks like u wanna do that on melee.

    You mentioned mainly uses irresistable dance as ur CC anyways, and warchanters can do that just fine too.

    So drop a feat for wep focus, and get warchanter, its way better for melee.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Not everyone plays with the same folks with the same build/gear layout and skill set each night. I heal differently based on the types of players in my party at the time. There are so many variables. So I really dont care about your braggadocio that you can heal your friends with maximize, one eye closed, nose in the air, while standing on your tippy-toes.
    Nothing constructive to add, except I found this pretty damn funny! Lol
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Just go warchanter, if your gonna melee.. Thats the melee pre. Doesn't make sense to focus 4+ feats into melee and take the wrong pre imo.

    Bards are jacks of all trades, masters of none.. If you REALLY generalize like that, you really wont be that good at anything - i meand youd be a low dps melee, that doesn't really benefit your groups overall melee dps as well as you could.. Gota focus in some way imo. And looks like u wanna do that on melee.

    You mentioned mainly uses irresistable dance as ur CC anyways, and warchanters can do that just fine too.

    So drop a feat for wep focus, and get warchanter, its way better for melee.
    I'd agree with you and actually went that route on my bard eventually except that the OP wanted to be a healing bard as well. Spellsinger has a much better sp pool which is extended even further via Spellsong Vigor. Neither one is wrong of course but I think Spellsinger has quite a bit of viability for a melee bard that wants to be able to heal as well.

  12. #32
    Community Member Geonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Just go warchanter, if your gonna melee.. Thats the melee pre. Doesn't make sense to focus 4+ feats into melee and take the wrong pre imo.

    Bards are jacks of all trades, masters of none.. If you REALLY generalize like that, you really wont be that good at anything - i meand youd be a low dps melee, that doesn't really benefit your groups overall melee dps as well as you could.. Gota focus in some way imo. And looks like u wanna do that on melee.

    You mentioned mainly uses irresistable dance as ur CC anyways, and warchanters can do that just fine too.

    So drop a feat for wep focus, and get warchanter, its way better for melee.
    One of the few times I agree with Shade. Why go with the "casting PrE" and then dump Cha?
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  13. #33

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    Why spellsinger over warchanter?

    Because there are more than just melees in a party to buff, spellsingers have a definite SP advantage over other bards, +4 UMD covers losing a some CHA, and losing the requirement for weapon focus frees up a feat.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 06-21-2011 at 12:16 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Why spellsinger over warchanter?

    Because there are more than just melees in a party to buff, spellsingers have a definite SP advantage over other bards, +4 UMD covers losing a some CHA, and losing the requirement for weapon focus frees up a feat.
    That about covers it. I'd also add that the SP advantage isn't just the initial blue bar but the way that Spellsong Vigor extends that bar even further.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Just go warchanter, if your gonna melee.. Thats the melee pre. Doesn't make sense to focus 4+ feats into melee and take the wrong pre imo.
    Your lack of understanding of the bard class needs enriching grasshoppa.

    Do you know the difference of inspire courage song between spell singer and warchanter?

    +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves.

    or:

    +4 bonus to your Concentration (great to have in combat situations when you need to hit that emergency heal)

    Use Magic Device +4 (great for Heal scrolls, raise dead, etc)

    +200 maximum Spell Points (more mana means more healing or CC)

    Opens up Spellsong Vigor, which I've YET to hear a blue-barred toon complain about recieving.

    Your narrow definition of a bard is to sing a song and die. Thats why the way you are "selling" your build is nothing short of BS.

    Warchanter, Spellsinger, Virtuoso. They ALL can be effective in the end game. It just comes down to your understanding of the game mechanics and how you want to play your bard.


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  16. #36
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Your lack of understanding of the bard class needs enriching grasshoppa.

    Do you know the difference of inspire courage song between spell singer and warchanter?

    +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves.

    or:

    +4 bonus to your Concentration (great to have in combat situations when you need to hit that emergency heal)

    Use Magic Device +4 (great for Heal scrolls, raise dead, etc)

    +200 maximum Spell Points (more mana means more healing or CC)

    Opens up Spellsong Vigor, which I've YET to hear a blue-barred toon complain about recieving.

    Your narrow definition of a bard is to sing a song and die. Thats why the way you are "selling" your build is nothing short of BS.

    Warchanter, Spellsinger, Virtuoso. They ALL can be effective in the end game. It just comes down to your understanding of the game mechanics and how you want to play your bard.
    I don't disagree with anything just want to make sure to include +5% DS. That plays an important role in WC damage and should be part of the conversation when considering PrEs.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Warchanter, Spellsinger, Virtuoso. They ALL can be effective in the end game. It just comes down to your understanding of the game mechanics and how you want to play your bard.
    Exactly. But more importantly, on the question at hand of building a Melee/Heal Bard, I would posit that all three can work on a max str Melee/Heal Spellsinger and that properly built all 3 work very well. I almost think Virtuoso does it best out of the three from a strictly melee and healing perspective in a group-based environment. Enthrallment is a 'healing' skill in that it prevents damage. The hp regen song is great, especially on healing amp'd toons. The fact that you can make the argument for all 3 is a sign that the bard pre's are fairly good at this point.

    A little off-topic but the spot that bards are hurting right now isn't in the pre balance but in the melee vs casting balance. So many toys for other casters and casting bards are still left out in the cold with aoe (soundburst/shout/g.shout), no persistent aoe damage, and no dot's. Their cc options are limited. Their dc's are lower due to max spell level of 6 instead of 9. That's another topic though but I'd say all 3 PrE's do well on melee bards and in fact I've played all 3 and enjoyed each one.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    I don't disagree with anything just want to make sure to include +5% DS. That plays an important role in WC damage and should be part of the conversation when considering PrEs.
    No question Val. I was just narrowing the vision a bit to focus on Shade's concept that spellsingers are worthless because warchanters are the only melee option, hence the only worthwhile bard to play. My point is there IS candy on the other side of the rainbow as well.

    If your #1 role is melee on your bard, you still can be hella effective to your healers/casters, and hence the quest/raid at hand going spellsinger. My thoughts about this can be applied to many builders. There are NO wrong choices, only wrong visions.

    The typical barbarian mentality provides quite the narrow scope when he enters the bard world like Shade's doing here. Once you erase that "one way street"mentality, you can see a whole lot more what your bard can accomplish.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 06-21-2011 at 02:40 PM.


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  19. #39
    Community Member phoenixfire's Avatar
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    First mistake you WENT HUMAN GARBAGE. so fix that and then you need to continplate weather or not you would splash in a few other levels like 2 lvls of fighter. if so that is 2 more feats and gives you all weapon masterys. then i would say go thf and go with these feats and stats.

    Feats.
    extend
    toughness
    thf
    ithf
    PA
    gthf
    impove crit
    2 fighter feats pick something to help you.

    stats/race

    WF HORC they are both preficeint with THF and i would say go Falchions.

    16 str
    8 dex
    14-16 con
    8 wis or less
    6-8 int
    12-16 cha

    NEVER ROLL A HUMAN THEY ARE POS GARBAGE.

    if you go twf go Rapiers and for feats take

    Feats
    weap finess
    twf
    itwf
    toughness
    extend
    PA
    improve crit and if you go with fighter then pick up any lost feats

    stats / race

    Drow Elf HELF Dwarf Halfling

    14 str
    16-18 dex
    14-16 con
    8 wis
    8 int
    12-16 cha

    and you would be happy with rapiers and do the damage you want to see

    all weapons you should build either Radiance II or Lightning II
    have fun with your bard i run 8 bards and i love them all and enjoy your time in ddo

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixfire View Post
    First mistake you WENT HUMAN GARBAGE.
    I stopped reading right there.

    Nothing you say after that matters.

    Have a nice day.


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