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  1. #101
    Community Member MedicMoore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Envoi View Post
    This is not the most egregious case of bureaucratic inactivity I have ever seen.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346...let-home-burn/

    is.
    Yeah. There was a lot of discussion about that one in the house. Some mixed feelings for both sides.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedicMoore View Post
    Bureaucracy has cost more people their lives than probably any other establishment in the history of man.
    I would disagree strongly on that point. But i can not mention the real #1 cause as its a banned topic here on this forum.

  3. #103
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy View Post
    I would disagree strongly on that point. But i can not mention the real #1 cause as its a banned topic here on this forum.
    Is it chemtrails?

  4. #104
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    As someone who had water rescue training (Advanced first aid, Bronze Cross) even someone who doesn't want to die can kill you in the water. Many lifeguards and other responders have been pulled underwater by someone in the process of drowning. Instructors spend a fair bit of time pointing that out to you and impressing upon you that your life is first. You are not to put yourself in danger, if the person you are trying to save is a threat you let them drown and then rescue them.

    I could see how responders might think someone TRYING to die might be a threat and might put them in danger.

    I see people saying "well two people could just wrestle the guy" ....no.... not in water. Without ground beneith you it doesn't work that way. Even a weak person can pull you under the water.

    It's a shame he died. It's a shame it it was just policy that stopped the rescue. But the responders didn't feel safe doing the rescue, they did the right thing by not rescuing him.

  5. #105
    Community Member DrunkenBuddha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganolyn View Post
    You cannot be sued for honestly trying to help someone. It is called the Good Samaritan Law. I'm betting you can be sued for standing around and not doing your job when you could have possibly helped though. My point is that if they had spent the $40,000 to train and equip them originally (the money seems to have magically appeared since they started taking heat for this) they might have saved a life and a lot more money that they will spend "fixing" this.
    Doubt that a lawsuit over "standing around not doing your job," as you state, would hold up. Why? They weren't trained/equiped to do the job you are claiming they are supposed to do. Equivalent to suing a doctor for not fixing your car.

    If one of the responders had attempted a rescue and died, and the responder's family sued the city/county for failing to adequately prepare/equip the responder for such an eventuality, then that would be a messy lawsuit. More than likely a settlement would be reached whereby the city/county would capitulate due to the bad PR of contesting the lawsuit. Which is the whole reason the policy explicity prohibits them from acting in such an instance because they are funded to be prepared to respond.

    Again - my response is similar to my experiences in the Navy. I was on submarines, and gases in an enclosed space kill quickly and silently. If you are not prepared/equipped, subsequent rescue attempts will result in the same result. You need preparation. You need proper equipment. Otherwise you are reliant upon luck. That's not a reliable standard for success.
    Originally Posted by Eladrin
    I often word things in ways that cause the most speculation and panic, because I'm capricious and mean.
    Argo: Cydia - Ariasa

  6. #106
    Community Member DrunkenBuddha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganolyn View Post
    There is a soldier who just received the Medal of Honor for trying to throw an enemy grenade away to save himself and others. He got his hand blown off for his trouble. The president and the entire military consider him a hero, but I guess he's just stupid. Being brave in a dangerous situation is always stupid from a self preservation point of view, but sometimes you just have to do it.
    This is an entirely unfair comparison and I think you know it. Entirely different set of circumstances. As a veteran, I am offended and insulted by this. He was in a war zone. Defending his mates against hostile fire.

    This, however, was an incident involving a suicidal man in water. The first responders were neither equipped or trained to effect a water rescue. You assume no one tried to talk him out of it. The person who eventually went in to attempt a rescue was actually trained in water rescue. And he was dead and did not resist.

    What would be your response if someone had gone in, without training and equipment, and ended up being killed by the suicidal man? "Well at least he tried." Right? No. That was just foolishness. You attempt a rescue without jeopardizing yourself or your team. If you can't do that, then you don't. Simple. In this case, they couldn't and didn't. It's simple although tragic.
    Originally Posted by Eladrin
    I often word things in ways that cause the most speculation and panic, because I'm capricious and mean.
    Argo: Cydia - Ariasa

  7. #107
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    Several years ago when I vistited the States. I was told that if i saw anyone laying in the street in need of help, to call the emergency services and under no circumstances get involved or offer any assistance. As it was likely that I'd end up getting sued for some made up complication that I may or may not have caused. It souned a little overblown to me, but the ammount of times i've heard this since is quite alarming.

    Sounds like things may be a little better now if the good samaratan law is in force. But even so its a pretty awfull thing that someone you helped first thought would be how much can i now sue my rescuer for.

  8. #108
    Community Member LondonGer's Avatar
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    It would appear that the OP has some sort of issue against the emergency services, maybe his cat didn't get saved from a tree or someone stole the coin eyes from his snowman and the police done nothing about it.

    Bottom line is someone who is willing to take there own life would be willing to take others with them and I would say that the police done the right thing by not going in the river, saving someone who wants to be saved is very different from TRYING to save someone who does not. They made the right choice and if being honest they would do the same thing again.

  9. #109
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Envoi View Post
    This is not the most egregious case of bureaucratic inactivity I have ever seen.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346...let-home-burn/

    is.
    Yeah, that's pretty ****ed up, especially since the guy offered to pay. $75?! Disgusting.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenBuddha View Post
    Doubt that a lawsuit over "standing around not doing your job," as you state, would hold up. Why? They weren't trained/equiped to do the job you are claiming they are supposed to do. Equivalent to suing a doctor for not fixing your car.
    Actually, I expect the lawsuit to get settled out of court. No matter that the people on duty acted in accordance with both regulation and safety standards, it's hard to stand up to a grieving family and juries are likely to respond the same way Ganolyn did, with ire and misdirected righteous fury, and trials by themselves are expensive, as are appeals.

    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy View Post
    I would disagree strongly on that point. But i can not mention the real #1 cause as its a banned topic here on this forum.
    I'm guessing you mean 'religion.' Discussable or not, I'll put that one out there, and I'd be inclined to agree, though heart disease and cigarettes may have eclipsed even this.
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  10. #110
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