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  1. #1
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Default Stealth - Guerilla Warfare Theory 101

    - a compilation of stealth relevant info -


    Killing 90-100% of mobs in quest = conquest +25%xp
    Killing 0-5 mobs and using little resources = +15%xp (plus bragging rights)

    Pulling mobs (in order of effectiveness):
    Savant pulling Awaken elemental weakness does not break invis, and it grabs agro of only the targeted monster. Works great for pulling and killing single targets.
    Bluff pulling Requires the skill BLUFF - Sneak up till in range target your mob and hit bluff and back up. Perfect for one target at a time.
    Kukan-Do pulling Requires monk pre - Kukan-Do can be used to single pull monsters. Once they recover from being stunned they will come after you. It has incredible range and works through "fuzzy" corners.
    Invis pulling Requires the skills MOVE SILENT possibly HIDE and the spell/clicky INVISIBILITY - You sneak with invis on, you go out of sneak at the point (hiding thanks to invis but not silent due not sneaking) where you want the mobs to go. Then you take one quick small step out of sneak (but still invis) and then go back to stealth and move away. The mobs will go to the point where you took the step.
    Sneak pulling (no invis) Requires the skills HIDE/MOVE SILENT - Remove/swap out your move silently item take a step or two so the enemy hears you, then put item back on and stealth away. If you happen to own an item that LOWERS your move silent score (chattering ring etc) then equip it move then unequip it again.
    Ranged pulling Requires a ranged weapon OR WAND - You stay out of earshot AND line-of-sight and attack a spot on the floor/wall near the mob to make him investigate, You can use a charm wand etc to same effect (if they roll a 1 you might even get them attacking each other.
    Buff pulling Not to be confused with bLuff pulling above. Some aoe clickys like haste make noise you can use this to trigger a pull.
    Trap pulling Requires lvl 4 rogue (trapmaking feat) - Noise maker traps: place and walk away, for patrolling mobs you may also use aggressive traps.
    Assassinate pulling Requires lvl12 rogue assassin - You can smash breakables using assassinate without breaking stealth to create a noise.
    Mark of Finding pulling Requires Feat : least dragonmark of finding- You can smash breakables with a small range using the mark without breaking stealth to create a noise. (also as a minor benefit you get some junk to use in quest (pray for invis wands)


    Noise and line-of-sight:
    They can hear through walls. But yes, you can use terrain and other things to block line of sight.
    It is also important to note that monsters cannot see behind themselves. (well..except beholders ) Nor to the sides. it is possible to stand up right next to a monster while SILENT (or don't move) and he will not know you are there. Monsters in some position other then their normal standing one, are for all intents sleeping, and will not see you, if you do not make noise. I've also noticed that as long as you are stealthed and BEHIND the door guard, the fact that the door (chest, lever, etc) has opened does not alert them to your presence.

    Stealthing:
    Dungeons can be entered in sneak mode. With the window open, go back into sneak mode before clicking "OK" and you will still be in sneak mode when you enter.
    (can also enter doing an emote too if you wish)
    You need to be out of earshot AND line of sight, remember some doors (and even some walls) are considered see-thru in DDO both may be heard thru. Get items that boost your hide/move silent scores some spells shore up a small hide score but you need a great move silent. Eyes show how obvious you are (if a mob is looking your way) red footprints show that the enemy can HEAR you and will trace(ping) you from then on(this will only show up at close range but they can hear you from much farther away).
    Jump/glide Speedy Stealthing: You cannot jump while stealthed, but you can jump THEN hit sneak while falling before hitting the floor and you will not make a noise to attract enemies nearby (works best under invisibility). This has no speed reduction in mid-air
    Swim Speedy Stealthing: You cannot stealth once in water, but you can jump THEN hit sneak while falling before hitting the water and you will again be a water ninja. This has no speed reduction when in the water
    Ladder Speedy Stealthing: You cannot stealth once climbing, but you can jump THEN hit sneak while aiming for the ladder and you will again be stealthed for the exit off the ladder-top. There is no speed reduction whilst on the ladder.
    Non-movement-moving abilities: (abundant step, leap of faith, and wind dance) do not make a move silent check, whether or not in sneak mode. Since spiders' tremor sense relies on movement (if you stand completely still and are invisible and watch a group of spiders kill a hireling or a pet, they will not agro on you until you move) this works to stealth past spiders.


    Stealth breakers:
    The following WILL break your sneak and most times also kills an invisibility spell:
    Pulling levers
    Using runes
    Opening chests
    Casting
    Firing a ranged weapon(even into space)
    Hitting a mob (not just attacking)with a melee weapon
    Getting hit
    Tumbling - (and this is stupid on so many levels but still)
    Talking to NPC's - only INITIATING the convo does this, you can restealth and continue speaking

    NEW! Artificer pets: NEW!
    These little beauties can help a ton in quests under stealth and you only need 1 arty lvl to do it, they can open doors / pull levers / etc and carry your stone if you fall down too far from shrine.
    While I haven't found a decent way to get them to sneak, and they use a (slightly upgraded) Hireling AI, unlike hirelings THEY WILL NOT LOSE YOU XP IF THEY DIE.. meaning using them to pull aggro and get by areas is great!! they have a soulstone, and arty 1 gets to raise pet 1/shrine but you can repeat this trick again and again, by taking them back to a shrine to rez.

    Blindsight:
    Bats/spiders/undead/Tharashk hounds/Slimes(insert more here) These mobs CANNOT BE STEALTHED PAST they need no spot check and will follow you for quite some time.

    Bumped/aggro'd mobs:
    The only way they can ping you while you are both invisible and sneaking is if you bumped into one at some point, unless...your move silently just isn't high enough...and if that is the case, you wont see sound flashes to alert you, that only happens when you are close enough. Ok, so now i've bumped a guard or primary target out of the pack. Without the use of spells, can i kite him all over the dungeon using only stealth tactics? YES (see re-stealthing)!!!
    He will be constantly trying to find and attack you. And may knock you out of stealth while doing so (if he damages you). He will also be telling every monster he gets near that he is attacking someone and they will move toward him trying to see for themselves what is going on. (interesting note that ENEMY Flaming Spheres from the spell will chase you around while you sneak past monsters and tell other monsters that they are attacking you....you'll see the monsters following the sphere around trying to see what it is attacking.)

    RE-Stealthing:
    To get back into sneak mode and be hiding and moving silently. This is seen to be the hardest thing to do because people are misinformed on how its done. It's actually quite easy to lose monsters that have already seen you.
    The ONLY way this works, is to move far enough to lose them from your target window (hard-target a mob and move away till it is no longer in your reticle) i call this the RANGE of RETALIATION obviously be out of line of sight and out of the area (just behind a nearby corner or doorway will NOT work) pop invisibility(if you can) then stealth.

    EPIC WINNING MAGIC:
    Invisibility Invisibility as implemented in DDO gives enemies without see invis or true seeing a -20 penalty to their spot checks against you and CONSIDERS YOU ALWAYS HIDING. It is ESSENTIAL if you aggro mobs and need to vacate, the mob will continue to be aggro and search for you but wont automatically know where to move to. scrolls/wands for those with umd, pots and clickys for those that cannot cast.

    Camouflage - Remember this doesn't automatically consider you hidden like invis so go invis 1st, that being said, STACKS with Mass camouflage AND Invisibility = +10, +10, +20 hide respectively and i believe isn't broken when attacking etc, so less recasts. Also the Mass version is only min lvl 5 (ranger lvl 8) so is attainable earlier than mass Invis. Only avail in random scroll drops (no pots) so is harder than invis to achieve regularly.

    Expeditious retreat/Haste/Shadowwalk - Sneaking is SLOW, so boost up that speed anyway you can! Shadowwalk+invisibility is a great high lvl stealth tool

    FASCINATE - All caps for a reason -> this ability does not break stealth (tho does create noise to draw em all in nicely on your aoe), and immobilises mobs for a good duration allowing enough time to get away/move on and get out of range of retaliation.

    Death aura - Breaks stealth! Every time it ticks counts as an offensive spell being cast. You don't want to have that spell active while trying to sneak, as you wont be taking any damage anyways. Negative energy burst if you take trap damage, then back into sneak.

    Flaming sphere - IS an awesome low lvl distraction/damage spell but is commonly overlooked. This can be used from scroll as it isn't affected by metas/extend etc. It not only draws mobs to it without breaking your stealth and cooks them but unlike a summoned creature cannot be damaged and has a very short duration (so will not follow you around the whole quest when you may want mobs to stay still).

    Hypnotise - No longer viable now with such short duration. Hypno'd mobs CAN STILL SEE AND HEAR YOU, if they saw you cast it they WILL chase you down later. Fascinate however is still EPIC WIN!!!

    Charm spells - This will aggro mobs like a distraction spell but not toward you, and has the added benefit of being able to be dismissed whenever the time is right. DISMISSING THE CHARM When dismissing a Charm, it is worth noting that if you stand behind the critter, it won't aggro. Higher lvls of charm allow you to move the mob a fair way, then you can even go into sneak mode, dismiss the charm, then sneak off if you are aiming for no kills.

    D.O.T - Wall of Fail, Melfs Acid arrow, Clouds, Rains. - Focus your enhancements on acid early on, then respec them later for fire/lightning etc if you feel. It's worth it! Melf's arrow spell with maximize and extend can take out almost any low level boss in one shot. Works especially well in redwillow. Sneak up to a named troll, hit him with acid, run for the nearest cave or re-stealth with invis, wait for him to die, grab the quest object and move on.

    Dimension Door - For those times when the group fails and you really need to re-stealth and try again. If you are far enough away the mobs will stop looking for you.

    Grease - I know.. I know, alright!! But when retreating in a room full of mobs placing this right can slow/stop the aggro'd mobs and give you time to make the distance needed for getting hidden again (see re-stealthing above)

    Jump / Featherfall - GLIDING - As mentioned above you cannot jump while stealthed- you can however use the jump n stealth combo to get further or onto ledges you couldnt normally reach, feather falling increases this range quite a bit and allows seemingly unreachable places to be reached.

    Spells that don't aggro mobs -
    BLINDNESS, (insert more here as we test em)

    Thank you to all those who i have plagiarized above - just thought this should be in one place - when i wake up ill try add your names for the credits.

    Edit : finally got the thread in the correct section
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 09-23-2011 at 04:30 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    reserved for thanks/credits deserved. If anyone has any more great tactics please drop it in thread and ill add it to the main post and you to the credits

    A +15 cloak of credit should go to:

    Talon_Moonshadow for 1st on charm wand and aoe buff pulling, invis then healing fallen allies, fascinate not breaking stealth, and some interesting tactics.

    Tobril For 1st on Kukan-Do pull

    Wax on Wax off For 1st on Camouflage stacking with Invisibility

    Delsoboss For 1st on Assassinate pulling, 1st on the the "speedy" stealthing section

    Jollyswagman For 1st on Charm/Dismiss charm tactics, 1st on Featherfall/Jump gliding tactics

    Ghoste the master and pioneer of shadowtactics. His shadowmage philosophy threads are PACKED full of useful tips
    Also 1st on Savant pulling and Non-movement-moving abilities
    Remember to search for ghoste and +1 rep him for these (not that he needs it)

    His videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcaneCo...10/ugYSgIgXAbo

    His build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...adowmage+build

    His philosophy: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...age+philosophy
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 09-23-2011 at 04:26 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Info sourced from other thread in wrong location

    Quote Originally Posted by JollySwagMan View Post
    Ahh another thing on jump/stealth dynamics:

    While you cannot go into sneak mode while swimming, you can jump out of the water to stealth then continue swimming. I haven't noticed any reduction in speed when doing this.

    Also, sneaking up ladders does not seem to be any slower than climbing a ladder normally. For this reason, I would recommend *always* hitting stealth while jumping onto a ladder.

    Finally, monsters seem to be poor at recognising the sound of someone leaving water compared to regular footsteps. ...With a sufficient jump skill, and a monster's back turned to you...you can perform some very Tenchu-worthy maneuvers.

    Of course, a lot of landscape features can be simply climbed over without requiring any jumping. Annoying if you're a Monk with a combo building up (as this interrupts it), but a viable means of staying in sneak mode in some places.

    One thing that helps me play DDO in a more interactive way is setting up specific hotkeys. For instance, I'll set up the sneak toggle onto hotbar 5 space 1, and set up the ` (tilde) key for that slot. This allows me to quickly toggle stealth without worrying about what hotbar I have active, and it's in easy reach of the WASD keys.
    Quote Originally Posted by delsoboss View Post
    Wondering if "assassinating" breakables can be used as a pullling tool since mobs move to investigate the noise and assassinate doesn't break stealth.
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 05-11-2011 at 08:05 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHolyDarkness View Post
    What skill thresholds are recommended to be decent for high level content? I've but only 4 ranks on my dex based ranger, but with items (such as the +15 Hide/MSilently provided by the CCove shortsword)...I dunno. Sorta remembered that I can boost my hide with a spell so I been trying to observe how I can perform without much rank investment.

    As I ponder the possibility of LRing or TRing my ranger one of these days, I guess I kinda feel like reevaluating the skills. Seems I can hide well enough but I ponder what I would've needed for MSilent.

    What kinds of total modifiers put you in the clear for say...

    Vale/Subterrane?

    Shavarath?

    Low Diff Epics (Sentinals and Phiarlian)?

    Medium Diff Epics (VoN, Fens, Desert)?

    High Diff Epics (Chrono)?

    Any hunches?

    ~TheHolyDarkness Out~
    if you put 1 rank per 2 levels into hide/movesilent or 1/2 ranks by lvl 20 you should be fine thru levelling-
    BOTH because higher lvl adventure mobs might have see invisibility.

    Ghoste's Shadowmage is pure wizard and had 14DEX starting score and 11 ranks in each @ lvl 20.
    he wrote:

    For the stealth skills, 60 is more than high enough for epic. Even a 40 hide is good enough for monsters with see invisibility. For some reason monsters in DDO universally have higher listen skill than spot skill. So even though 40 hide is high enough for epic, 40 ms definitely is not.

    11 ranks, +2 action points, +15 item, +3 dex, +3 dt armor with skills, +4 Gh, +2 luck +20 wraithform (if palemaster) for move silent = 60
    11 ranks, +2 action points, +15 item, +3 dex, +3 dt armor with skills, +4 Gh, +2 luck +20 invisibility for hide = 60

    I'm also assuming that you have access to cash to get proper = lvl items from the auction house (this is standard for ANY char using important skills, trapspringers, fascinators, UMD-Charisma etc)
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 05-13-2011 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Wow . . . this is a real gem of a thread that I'm happy I clicked on. Bookmarked! And +1, of course. I've never played too much with stealth, despite liking rogue levels on as many of my characters as possible . . . going to have to try some of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    11 ranks is the highest possible for a cross class skill ((20+3)/2=11.5).

    Otherwise great thread.

    Hide skill wise vs see invisibility camouflage scrolls can be found for +10 hide. This also stacks with mass camo for a further +10. All added up with invisibility and that's +40 to hide before anything else.

  7. #7
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    11 ranks is the highest possible for a cross class skill ((20+3)/2=11.5).

    Otherwise great thread.

    Hide skill wise vs see invisibility camouflage scrolls can be found for +10 hide. This also stacks with mass camo for a further +10. All added up with invisibility and that's +40 to hide before anything else.
    Thanks for the catch Wax - i'm assuming ghoste's shadowmage had some improved hide/move silently enhancements, or a passive feat or something in his original build.
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 05-11-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Apart from the obvious - don't build this it's gimp cause its ranged...
    Here's an example stealth build i made taking advantage of deepwood sniper revamp

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.2
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Xpression of a stealthy soul
    Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
    (12 Rogue \ 8 Ranger) 
    Hit Points: 258
    Spell Points: 75 
    BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
    Fortitude: 13
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 6
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
    Strength             14                 20                   20
    Dexterity            17                 20                   22
    Constitution         14                 16                   16
    Intelligence         14                 16                   16
    Wisdom                9                 11                   11
    Charisma              8                 10                   10
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               3                    16
    Bluff                 3                    26
    Concentration         2                     3
    Diplomacy            -1                     0
    Disable Device        6                    25
    Haggle                2                     3
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                  7                    35
    Intimidate           -1                     0
    Jump                  6                    11
    Listen               -1                     0
    Move Silently         7                    35
    Open Lock             7                    14
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair                2                     3
    Search                6                    25
    Spot                  3                    25
    Swim                  2                     5
    Tumble                4                    25
    Use Magic Device      3                    22
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+3)
    Skill: Hide (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Move Silently (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Wizard
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide I
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
    Enhancement: Improved Spot I
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot
    Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
    Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Diehard
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (1): Camouflage
    Spell (1): Jump
    Spell (1): Longstrider
    Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
    Spell (1): Ram's Might
    Spell (1): Resist Energy
    Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
    Spell (1): Tumble
    Enhancement: Improved Wizard Dilettante I
    Enhancement: Improved Hide II
    Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
    Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
    Enhancement: Improved Spot II
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Ranger Deepwood Sniper I
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
    Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Barkskin
    Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
    Spell (2): Cat's Grace
    Spell (2): Cure Light Wounds
    Spell (2): Hold Animal
    Spell (2): Mass Camouflage
    Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
    Spell (2): Protection From Energy
    Spell (2): Snare
    Spell (2): Spike Growth
    Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+3)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Hide (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
    And just so you all know - this is just an example build, rather than critique it, maybe put forward you own favorite sneaky ninja.
    This build under invisibility/camouflage/mass camouflage and with a +6 dex item and +15 item can reach 93 hide
    cannot match a wraithform build, but move silently tops at 53 with just standard gear
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 05-12-2011 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    As usual, I'm going to comment before I finish reading the whole thread.

    I recently experimented with single target pulling using a Wand of Charm Person.

    Wands have horrible save DCs. But can be UMDed pretty easily. The idea was that the target was almost sure to save against the wand, and agro on me...but since he took no damage he would not tell his friends about me.

    It worked!
    But when he does agro on me, he does communicate to his friends that he is fighting something....and they move toward him to see what it is. Sometimes this meant that they moved toward me and saw me too. But if you are careful, your target will run toward you and leave his friends behind....
    An interesting pulling trick.

    Also a successful Charm spell resets the agro of the monster. If he does not see you when he breaks or is released he will not agro on. This is one of only a very few ways to remove agro from a monster.

    Death also removes agro btw.

    Incapped, sometimes does....but not always.

    You can cast Invis on someone before casting a healing spell to un-incap them, and if they do not move, you can continue to heal them up and rebuff them (as long as the spell does not make noise......Haste makes noise btw...without them getting agro)


    I have seen some evidence that random agro mobs reset their agro when they switch targets. And it seems possible to hide from them even if they already attacked you once.... need more testing to be sure, but I would swear I've been able to Invis and sneak after being atacked by Devils, once they switched their agro to someone else in the party.
    They also need to see you to reagro on you (I think), and they can only see in front of them. So there are several applications for this knowledge...like healing, casting and ranging from a distance while Devils fight the rest of the party. They will of course agro on you when you hurt them..etc. But seems like they might forget you when they switch targets later.

    Many creatures can See Invis. This can actually be used to pull them away from other monster with them who cannot.

    Monsters See in front of them. If you stand up so one can see you, his froends who are facing another direction might not see you.... restealth and go fight the one who saw you in a safe spot. (I need to bind a key to /wave just for this purpose. )

    Most monsters that are in a position other than their normal standing one are for all intents and purposes actually sleeping (or not even really there in some cases)
    They wil never "see" you until activated. (usually by sound)

    Monsters have no sense of touch. You can bump into their behinds and not agro them.
    They also have poor peripheral vision.


    You can cast (and shoot) from around corners.

    You can sometimes, with practice get summoned monsters to appear exactly where you want them to. This can be a useful distraction.

    Pets and monsters (even dead monster so I'm told) can be used to activate preassure plates/platforms.

    Most doors and levers make no noise when operated.
    The doors in Claw of Vulkoor(sp) quest "DO" make noise!

    Some doors and random walls can be seen through by monsters.




    I think I'll go read all of you post now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  10. #10
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    A minor trick:

    Using Precise shot (or just not hitting a monster) you can range something...like a portal...even if they are standing right next to it, and if you are far enough away, they will not agro on you.

    They will "hear" the arrow hit the portal and turn toward the portal, but will not otherwise agro.

    For trivia's sake, it use to be possible to stay in sneak mode and attack. I was able to destroy portals while standing right next to Devils without agroing the Devils.
    Sadly this trick no longer works, cause you cannot stay in sneak mode and attack.
    (Toeretically you could use Assassination, but I find Assassination less precise and have Assassinated targets standing behind me, so I doubt you could pull this off.)


    Other coments:

    Drinking most potions does not break stealth (or make noise)
    Some AOE spells (like Haste) make noise. It may be possible to use this as a pulling technique.

    Bard Fascinate does not break stealth or Invis....but does make noise.

    Assassination does not break Invis (Probably a byproduct of it not breaking stealth)

    Although many things can knock you out of sneak mode, you can easily go right back into.

    Bluff can be used to Assassinate something even if you have it's agro.

    Faster Sneaking IV and 30% Striders really helps you oull off some stealth tricks.

    In general a fast movement speed can be very useful in various battlefield tactical situations.

    Just because you have agro from one monster does not mean you have agro from all of them.
    Continue to sneak or move away to an isolated location and see what actually follows you. You can often fight less monsters at once this way.


    Going Invisible even after you get agro...or sometimes even going into sneak mode will sometimes force the monsters to look for you..using their sonar, attack the air thingy....
    I believe this only works if you did not bump into them while stealthed or invised before....and like many agro situations involving stealth, is somewhat buggy.
    But you can sometimes use Invis or stealth to get away from a mosnter even if you have agro, as it will slow down as it tries to find you.
    Faster Sneaking really makes a difference here.

    it seems that Invis works better if you have some ranks in Hide/Ms even if you ae not sneaking. Not exactly sure how this works, but you can see a big difference when running through an explorer area while Invisible if you have some sneak skills and if you do not.


    Monsters cannot see very far way. They see even less far if you are in sneak mode....even if you have no skills in Hide.
    The new Eyeball/lighting modifyers probably effect this. And they are brutal now. Some Hide scores are not enough in some brightly lit places now. (Blockade Buster for example)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  11. #11
    Community Member Cap_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Bluff can be used to Assassinate something even if you have it's agro.
    For the Bluff while aggro'd, I use this often when solo and sometimes in group if I don't want to diplo mobs on to casters.

    If I find I have aggro I do the following:
    Back Flip + Back Flip + Stealth + Bluff + Assassinate

    By the time you hit bluff the mob will be almost on top of you again and within assassination range.


    Great thread with lots of good advice, thanks all.

  12. #12
    Community Member Ravoc-DDO's Avatar
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    Excellent thread. A well deserved +1 to you Stillwaters!

  13. #13
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    No need to +1 guys, this is mainly just me pooling other's hard-learned advice.

    Glad you like the thread so far, anyone else find any tricks?

    I tend to stay away from casters when designing characters, so id really like to learn from a caster-from-the-shadows a few more spells that dont create aggro/noise.

  14. #14
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    No need to +1 guys, this is mainly just me pooling other's hard-learned advice.

    Glad you like the thread so far, anyone else find any tricks?

    I tend to stay away from casters when designing characters, so id really like to learn from a caster-from-the-shadows a few more spells that dont create aggro/noise.
    The game keeps changing and it's a little hard for me to know what is current...

    MrCow had a post a long time ago about which spells make noise. Most do not. I remember that they were mostly AOE instant efect spells. And Haste was one of them. I think Bless does too.

    I experimented with an Invisible Cleric for awhile. And I discovered that it is a very powerful thing.

    Most healing and buffs to not break Invis.
    Bless does break it. Apparently it is an attack spell. Prayer probably breaks Invis too.

    Mass Aid did not break Invis....much to my surprise.

    The same things that break Invis break Shadow Walk as well btw.

    You canot stand in front of a monster in sneak mode and cast Invis without being seen....apparently you stand up first and they see you. Casting Invis definately does not make noise....and most spells don't anyway.

    Most spells do cause agro! (now) In fact, there is almost no offensive spell that does not cause agro now. (really sad, cause there used to be a whole bunch that did not)

    But in general, if the spell causes damage, they tell all of their closest friends exactly where you are. They also seem to tell them your location if they run by them while feared....need some more testing here to be sure.

    If they do not take damage, they simply agro on you without telling their friends much.

    Any monster that attacks you will let nearby monster know that he is attacking you. But they will just move closer to him and follow a short distance to see what is going on....they usually will not learn your location or truly agro on you if you did not damage their friend.

    Monsters running by other monsters between attacks do not seem to tell other monsters anything...or if they do, they seem to move away too fast for it to have any real effect. (might wake up sleeping ones though)

    All of these latest comments need testing to be 100% sure of what actually happens....sry.

    An interesting note that keyed me in on some of this behavior: I was sneaking through one of the Necro I quests, and a Flaming Sphere from a previous fight was following me around. I saw that other monsters were folowing the Sphere...but not actually agroed on me. Apparently, the sphere "talks" to other monsters as it passes by and tries to attack me.

    During the same quest, I had circled around to the other side of a closed door that I had been near before, and saw several Ghouls near the door that at first I thought were agroed on me. As I watched I realised that only one or two were actively trying to attack me (and bugged and could not seem to realise that I was now right behind them) but that there were several other ghouls moving close to the agroed ones just trying to figure out what there were upset about.

    Also from my tests with the Charm Person wand I mentioned before...it seems there are definately two types of communication that goes on when a monster agros near other monsters.

    But if I bluff or just let myself get seen by a single monster, his friends do not usually react at all.... as he runs off to try to attack me.

    Charmed monsters do NOT tell their (former) friends anything about you.
    If you Charm (successfully) one monster in a mob, all of his friends will fight him, and no matter what the result will never know you existed, if you do not otherwise reveal yourself to them. (sometimes they won't even set off alarms!)(but that may have been changed, as I haven't seen this work recently.)

    /emotes do not break stealth. Useful to show off for your friends.
    (You grab Xoriat Orb and begin to dance.)

    Turning Puzzle wheels does not seem to break stealth. But I think I only tried this in Tangleroot and it was a couple updares ago...so might need more testing.

    Adding powder to barrels in Gwylans DOES break stealth.
    Operating the mine controls in Blocade Breaker makes noise. (just how do you do this without setting off an alarm?!!!)

    You can sometimes open a secret door while falling past it. Might be able to operate some levers this way, but I've always failed so far with levers. (not a stealth trick, but one I just thought of....sry)

    Using a heal/repair kit does not break stealth. (although I admit I don't do this often)
    (and might be safer for the guy you are trying to revive if you somehow make him invisible first.)

    Bluff does not break stealth, but a successful Bluff cause the target to agro on you. (although he won't actually see you and if you move, he will have to search for you)
    Pretty sure Diplomacy and Intimidate break stealth.

    Using a Res or Rest shrine does not make noise. However, shrines do not seem to block line of sight.
    You will stand up afer using a shrine and your buffs will be gone. (meaning you can shrine while stealthed/invised, but may be seen right afterwards)

    Dread Wraiths....like in the Orchard, have Life Sense and you cannot sneak by them.
    Most lower lvl Wraiths do not.
    The named Wraith behind a secret door in one of the Necro I quests can be snuck by. You can open the door and loot his chest without agroing him.
    I think I also looted the end chest in Mirra's Sleepless Nights without agroing the Wraiths there too.

    Talking to most NPCs breaks stealth.
    You can reenter sneak mode and continue the conversation though.
    This means that if a dialog with an NPC starts a fight, you can be in sneak mode beofore the NPC is activated and if you are not in his line of sight he will not know you are there.

    Dungeons can be entered in sneak mode. With the window open, go back into sneak mode before clicking "OK" and you wil still be in sneak mode when you enter.
    (can also enter doing an emote too if you wish)

    Most portals break stealth and Invis though....so be ready when you get to the other side.
    If you zone into an area from a portal, it seems that even some creatures with tremor sense may not know you are there until you move though......if they are facing away from anyway. (you can try this with the Fiendish Spiders on the way to the Hound/Vod...they will not agro on you until you move.)



    Out of ideas for now...
    (and you're probably tired of reading my rants anyway.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  15. #15
    Community Member ARcdevil's Avatar
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    Stealth builds when in groups are really powerful.
    The problem is there aren't many.
    Spread the love for groups of stealthy build, people!
    If beauty is in the eye of the beholder which eye is that?
    I demand you nerf this post. I was the first person to enter the chronoscope quest on cannith. And died in 10 mins when the whole party finally got in. Profesional Necrobumper.

  16. #16
    Founder Ghoste's Avatar
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    Non-movement-moving abilities (abundant step, leap of faith, and wind dance) do not make a move silent check, whether or not in sneak mode. Since spiders' tremor sense relies on movement (if you stand completely still and are invisible and watch a group of spiders kill a hireling or a pet, they will not agro on you until you move) this works to stealth past spiders.

    I still need to test this a bit further with oozes and living spells.

    It of course means you can zip past groups of monsters while invisible without being heard. Still need to do further testing, but I also believe they can't detect you at all unless you start or stop inside a close visual arc, but passing through one is safe.

    Tharashk hounds have blind sight, but they still use a standard visual arc. In many instances it is possible to sneak past them by going behind them.

    Awaken elemental weakness does not break invis, and it grabs agro of only the targeted monster. Works great for pulling and killing single targets.

    Third tier elemental savant special abilities (earth grab, icy prison and heat death) also do not break invis.
    Last edited by Ghoste; 05-16-2011 at 03:47 PM.
    My Videos Shadow Mage (ok, it's a build now)
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  17. #17
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    one of my favorite tricks for my assassin vs devils (anything with teleport, really):

    stealth, get to just within bluff range, bluff... and assassinate them when they teleport in. repeat as needed, great for soloing quests full of teleporting mobs

    a variant of this also works for light monks with kukan-do, you can pull the teleporting mob to you with it being stunned, and not aggro anything else

  18. #18
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoste View Post
    Non-movement-moving abilities (abundant step, leap of faith, and wind dance) do not make a move silent check, whether or not in sneak mode. Since spiders' tremor sense relies on movement (if you stand completely still and are invisible and watch a group of spiders kill a hireling or a pet, they will not agro on you until you move) this works to stealth past spiders.

    I still need to test this a bit further with oozes and living spells.

    It of course means you can zip past groups of monsters while invisible without being heard. Still need to do further testing, but I also believe they can't detect you at all unless you start or stop inside a close visual arc, but passing through one is safe.

    Tharashk hounds have blind sight, but they still use a standard visual arc. In many instances it is possible to sneak past them by going behind them.

    Awaken elemental weakness does not break invis, and it grabs agro of only the targeted monster. Works great for pulling and killing single targets.

    Third tier elemental savant special abilities (earth grab, icy prison and heat death) also do not break invis.
    Wow! You never cease to amaze me! lol.

    So... does this mean that Blindsense, Tremor Sense, and Lifesense (are there any others?) are actually three different things in DDO?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  19. #19
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoste View Post
    Non-movement-moving abilities (abundant step, leap of faith, and wind dance) do not make a move silent check, whether or not in sneak mode. Since spiders' tremor sense relies on movement (if you stand completely still and are invisible and watch a group of spiders kill a hireling or a pet, they will not agro on you until you move) this works to stealth past spiders.

    I still need to test this a bit further with oozes and living spells.

    It of course means you can zip past groups of monsters while invisible without being heard. Still need to do further testing, but I also believe they can't detect you at all unless you start or stop inside a close visual arc, but passing through one is safe.

    Tharashk hounds have blind sight, but they still use a standard visual arc. In many instances it is possible to sneak past them by going behind them.

    Awaken elemental weakness does not break invis, and it grabs agro of only the targeted monster. Works great for pulling and killing single targets.

    Third tier elemental savant special abilities (earth grab, icy prison and heat death) also do not break invis.
    OMG - Ghoste posted in my thread ^^
    Big fan mate
    TY for the info

  20. #20
    Founder Ghoste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    So... does this mean that Blindsense, Tremor Sense, and Lifesense (are there any others?) are actually three different things in DDO?
    Blindsense, or blindsight, works like true seeing as well as ignores whether or not target is hiding. But it only works in the creatures visual arc. So passing move silent checks is possible, and stay out of line of sight or visual arc to remain undetected.

    Lifesense will detect you no matter what. It shouldn't work that way for pale masters, but it does.

    Tremor sense will locate you if you so much as even jump. But those special abilities I listed bypass it.

    So yes, they do seem to be coded as distinct abilities.

    All monsters seem to have an additional ability: pet sense. Summon a pet and have it follow you (you are invisible). Stop as soon as a group of monsters agros on your pet, and watch the pet die. Kill the monsters. Try the same test with no pet and notice the distance from which they agro on you. They agro on the pets from a lot further away, through walls, doors, and invisibility.
    My Videos Shadow Mage (ok, it's a build now)
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