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  1. #21
    Community Member ehcsztein's Avatar
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    Just to touch on a few points...

    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    Also while the PvP brawl seems to be used, I have the impression that the private PvP/GvG instances - that you already can do - aren't used that much if at all.
    I think the discussion of improving PvP options largely comes up because of the inadequacies of the current system. There is no incentive to use it now so it gets in the way of gear acquisition and XP. This however does not demonstrate that people do not want PvP improvements. It just solidifies that people's priorities are XP and gear. We can understand that without even thinking about PvP lol.

    Of course I also mentioned ideas that would revolve around GvG win conditions that would not require the groups to engage in combat with eadch other.

    The current system is largely a poor implementation of traditional PvP concepts. I am advocating the development of PvP concepts that are unique to DDO that add to the game and allow the mechanics available to be explored in new ways. Crystal Cove was still just DDO but with a distinct and enjoyable twist. I'd like a similar twist on PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    So how exactly would you add PvP or GvG that create exactly this revenue for Turbine? Adding items that only can be obtained via PvP aren't the way to go.
    Off the top of my head... consumables that are only usable in a pvp context... HP/SP regen for example. Or one that will probably be a bit more contraversial... a consumable that allows XP to be earned for satisfying PvP objectives.
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  2. #22
    Community Member sirdanile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyytoi View Post
    I would pay for better PvP.

    Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

    PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

    Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

    So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.
    Haha, the one person who frequently killed me without my being able to get a shot in is saying melee HAD a chance against a caster at one point...

    But yeah, its not high on my list but I wouldnt mind a little pvp love in the future.
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  3. #23
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Okay PVP fans as a PVE fan I have made it known how I feel about the implementation of pvp many times in the past. As a Dungeons and Dragons fan I never felt pvp had a place in this game. As a gamer though I realize that different things call to different people. Also as someone with many capped characters I can understand the need to want a different outlet to utilize your play time hence why I petition for many time sinks. But just like I did when I begged with others for housing I knew I had to make my plea noticeable by asking myself these questions.

    1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

    2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

    3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

    4. Will it disrupt game balance?

    So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.

    Point blank the reason pve is such a focus is when new dungeons/explorer areas are introduced they can make packs which players can opt to buy bringing in revenue. With pvp there is no charge for it so your basically getting what you pay for. My question to you pvp players is this:

    What would you pay to have a better pvp system? If they implemented an area where it was complete player vs player with a workable environment would you spend your hard earned dollars to move to said area (if it was a server) Would you spend Turbine points to buy a pack for a quest line that pitted you versus your fellow player population? Honestly if it brings in more revenue even if I would not find myself ever partaking in it I wouldnt be so vocal against pvp. But for now I am not seeing any real reason for the developers to give it any more thought then what we have. Id love to see someone think out a way for the game to profit and make those who really like pvp happy but I just dont find myself caring for the cause. Maybe someone out there who enjoys this can change my mind. Im putting that challenge out to you pvp pro people.
    I'm not a fan of PvP in DDO but I've made a suggestion that would meet your criteria quite a few times in the past.

    Simply put, implement a map similar to DotA. In this quest it is the goal of the party to destroy an enemy base (portal, tree, building, whatever) while defending a friendly base. A large portion of the map is independent of the players; trash from both sides periodically spawns and marches towards the opposing base and it is the job of the party to aid there advance to facilitate the completion of the quest. Even without a PvP aspect this could be a fun event style map similar in difficulty structure to Crystal Cove. The PvP aspect comes in with the option to to have an opposing party helping the opposing trash destroy your base. The important thing that makes this idea workable in the D&D context it is that maintains a primarily PvE focus (players have to kill the trash and the portal, other players are effectively a distraction).

    Regarding your criteria;

    1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

    Yes, it would be used by a large proportion of the player base as having an opposing party partake in the instance is optional and it could be fun for everyone.

    2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

    Yes, you could sell each map individually for TP.

    3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

    No, minimal developer time would be necessary as many explorer areas currently exist that would be viable platforms for the map. The developer time necessary would involve pathing and balancing of the trash mobs.

    4. Will it disrupt game balance?

    No. Very little change to game mechanics would be necessary to make this viable. The only global change that I think of that is really necessary is to make it possible to hide from opposing players, without this change rogues and other stealthy characters are at a huge disadvantage. After that all of the balancing can occur on the map. Specifically, make structures immune to all spells and ranged weapons; this will make melee characters a necessary part of a balanced team without which it will be significantly more difficult to win. Further balancing could involve game options that could be turned on by players as they enter the map, examples might include restrictions to levels, equipment or anything else you can think of but only on the map.

    So yes, this is my PvP idea, what do you think?

  4. #24
    Community Member stille_nacht's Avatar
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    i would want PvP to be free if it ever did happen :/, it would indirectly increase revenue by virtue of drawing more players because of more features.
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  5. #25

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    I would pay money for some of the features I suggested in another thread... And I bet if they were implemented... many of the "get rid of PvP" and "PvP sucks" people would enjoy.

    It would be fun to go head to head with another group in the same dungeon.

    I am not for balancing 1:1 pvp with various classes... but suggesting that PvP should be cut out is more selfish as asking for a little more developer attention to making it what it could be. Just cus YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it has no place.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Wax on that is actually a fun sounding idea heck something I could see myself enjoying as well and voluntary which means those who arent into it dont have to utilize it.

    stille_nacht the problem with your wishes is asking for anything and just expecting time to be put into it for a chance at profit isnt as good as having a plan that ties into direct revenue.

    people used to say "why have any housing what can the game get from it." Now most guilds are using airships people are forming guilds and even buying charters to own them. They are using the store to sell us items for said ships (which hopefully one day will include more fluff design type items furniture and the like.) So its rather simple people into pvp who really want to see an over haul should be able to come up with not only concepts that wont hurt our pve environment, but can also be tied into the store which would bring profits which can be used to bring other things we want to see in game. I just think of things threw a business perspective.
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  7. #27
    Community Member stille_nacht's Avatar
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    well, they did release F2P quests didn they? :P, a rewarding, balanced, and accessable PvP system is a bigger playerdraw than any 2 updates i am pretty sure

    /holdsout hope

    but first, more content.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I would like to see PvP improved, but I do not care about balance betwen the classes.


    In my opinion the best use of PvP is group against group. I like the Capture the Flag ones.....we need more arenas for it IMO.

    Would like to see a dungeon with monsters...etc. Where two groups can compete against each other to complete.

    Would need multiple paths to completion, and maybe traps etc. That would make individuals be off by themselves at times...

    I would find that very interesting.

    More complicated death matches for one on one too. If there is enough variety of terrain, and a few abilties in PP are fixed....like stealth... then the classes can use more tactics to overcome another class's abilties.

    There are many ways to spice up PvP without worrying about baance between classes IMO.
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  9. #29
    Community Member stille_nacht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I would like to see PvP improved, but I do not care about balance betwen the classes.


    In my opinion the best use of PvP is group against group. I like the Capture the Flag ones.....we need more arenas for it IMO.

    Would like to see a dungeon with monsters...etc. Where two groups can compete against each other to complete.

    Would need multiple paths to completion, and maybe traps etc. That would make individuals be off by themselves at times...

    I would find that very interesting.

    More complicated death matches for one on one too. If there is enough variety of terrain, and a few abilties in PP are fixed....like stealth... then the classes can use more tactics to overcome another class's abilties.

    There are many ways to spice up PvP without worrying about baance between classes IMO.
    problem is, there must be class balance, or all of PvP would be one class. (ex, in capture the flag, 6 savant sorcs >>>> balanced party, they would snipe a sorc, then annihalate everyone else)

    easiest way to achieve this is to tweak number values for PvP situations
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenostrata View Post
    Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

    DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.
    Give us a large explorer area, and casters lose their edge against ranged attacks... Balance in a box? Could never happen...

  11. #31
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    Just build a large explorer area where players can take advantage of the terrain. Melee's could have a place with a lot of walls for blocking spells, like a maze, with different levels, etc, rangers could kill most casters before that ever knew what hit them. Balance be gone, no more whining...

  12. #32
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay View Post
    just cus YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it has no place.
    this.

    <insert sarcastic comment about how pvp should die>

    /vomit
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  13. #33
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    Wax on that is actually a fun sounding idea heck something I could see myself enjoying as well and voluntary which means those who arent into it dont have to utilize it.
    So stick with this idea.

    It's fun, viable, revenue raising, beneficial to the game overall. Why can't we champion this idea until it gets implemented?

    Are there any problems with it?

  14. #34
    Community Member Thailand_Dan's Avatar
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    As a person who has never been into PvP, I have to agree with you that the player base has changed dramatically since F2P, therefore, it's worth examining. I like how you bring up the point that it should not only pay for itself, but bring profits to Turbine if it is to be seriously considered. Great post. I'd positive rep you if you had it turned on

    I think the idea of a PvP server is not ideal, as old-timers, who by far, are overwhelmingly not into PvP, will likely never give it a try, and the rift between them and "F2P-boomers" would begin to widen, again. Not to mention, the on-going support and maintenance of an independent server would likely be more substantial then simply integrating it into game-play on all pre-existing servers. (Not to mention, the PDers would go nuts).

    Most of the resistance to PvP, I believe, comes from the horrible implementation of it in this game and the brag-fest seen in other games. If the devs put some effort into it, and made it more then a single room, that's a free for all, it might be kind of fun. In addition, if care was taken to integrate DDO style objectives, and questing, I think you'd eliminate a lot of the "Up, down, up, up, R-button, A+C+Right...Crowd" that are known for childish bragging and taunting.

    You could split the play between Levels 5-10, 11-16, 17+. You could re-use preexisting dungeons and set objectives, Party vs Party. Imagine something like STK, or Spliterskull, one team starting at the beginning and the other at the end. Customization, would be key. Maybe the party leaders could decide on certain elements: time limit, objective (i.e. capture the flag, kill all enemies, resurrection or not, etc.), independent mobs present or not, etc. Maybe you could set a time limit where traps could be set, and players can get into position, before the opposing team can enter into your area. Suddenly, that trap monkey to set and detect traps would become essential to a party (something no other quest has manged to do).

    Talk about re-playability. Suddenly, you have no idea what is around the next corner. Static quests is something many people would like changed. Here a dynamic environment is a guaranteed.

    Suddenly, where to fight, how to fight (which weapons and spells), who to attack first, who to put out front, flanking your enemy, disrupting his plan of attack and many more real life battle elements come into play and are vital to success. Suddenly, spells which are never (or rarely) used become really useful (i.e. grease, slow, glitterdust, dispel magic, summon monster/undead to scope out enemy positions and traps, etc.).

    And since we are going off the map, how about a unique dungeon which allows for a party to party turn based fight? This would make no sense playing against a computer, where the main thing a mob does is swing, swing, swing or if you are a hobgoblin caster, "Searing light", "Ray of enfeeblement", "Searing Light". The battle, would go from character to character where they choose their attack/heal/etc and their target. Talk about pulling in the old-time PnPers. But, I digress. Just a thought.

    I think the biggest challenge you run into with PnP is rewarding the winner. If you give them too much, those choosing not to participate will go crazy, but if you give them nothing (as it is now), people quickly get bored. A suggestion would be 2 or so random loot chests at the level of those competing, but that isn't too exciting. Maybe throw in some rare drops of other items available in quests (i.e. small/medium/large ingredients, etc.). In addition, the party could add agreed upon items and/or plat into a community chest before the battle, which only the winner can access when the battle is concluded. (The UI could be something like the trade window, where everyone puts their stuff into it, and it is locked when both sides agree).

    If a pack like this was released, I think many players would give it a try. I know I would. In addition, it could help spread tactical knowledge among the player base. Many people stick with their guild questing, but competing against other guilds would certainly show you some new tricks you never knew were out there.

    As far as profits for Turbine, of course they could charge for the pack. But, I think they would see a lot more items purchased. Personally, I've never bought items from the store which are available in game unless it was going to save me time or I forgot something (i.e. forgot to bring jump potions into the pit, while soloing, and realizing it when I step into the third furnace, or a spirit cake while soloing.). If you are out of SP in a quest, as a arcane or cleric, you probably just let the party know and they fend for themselves until the next shrine, but if your party may wipe in a vicious fight, you'll probably bite the bullet and chug that major (store bought or not). Unlike normal questing where your party typically out-classes every enemy, you are now evenly matched, outmatched, or slightly under-matched with your foe, so resource consumption will likely be far greater than normal game play.

    Thank about it.

  15. #35
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    Personally, I HATE PvP. I know that others find it enjoyable, I'm not one of them. I have left excellent games because they forced me to participate in PvP on what was billed as a PvE server/environment.

    Now, if Turbine could come up with a reasonable PvP system (free or pay) for those that like it, I would support it and let those have their fun. But the thing is, no matter how good, fair or balanced a PvP environment is, there are going to be people that whine about how borked it is.

    In all my 30+ years of playing D&D and AD&D, player on player action was very rare and usually an arena or gladiatorial type thing that was mostly a one shot stress relief. And on one occasion a tournament where everyone played lvl 18 wizards with identical stats, a budget for gear and spell selection left totally up to the player.

    I'd be happy to see PvP totally ripped out of DDO. I say be happy you got yer basic tavern brawl and leave it at that.

  16. #36
    Community Member ehcsztein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCain View Post
    But the thing is, no matter how good, fair or balanced a PvP environment is, there are going to be people that whine about how borked it is.
    This is not a situation that is unique to PvP. It is already an active part of the PvE culture in DDO.

    There will always be players who view aspects of any game as broken, or over powered, or unfair in one way or another.

    "Balance" is a moving target in any complex game.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stille_nacht View Post
    well, they did release F2P quests didn they? :P, a rewarding, balanced, and accessable PvP system is a bigger playerdraw than any 2 updates i am pretty sure

    /holdsout hope

    but first, more content.

    Your basing player draw on what. Do you have any support for this claim? I am pretty sure that we can all make things up like this but something real behind it would be nice. Since the general responses concerning what could be done seem relatively weak. Yes they released free to play quests but not very many of them in comparison.
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  18. #38
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    I mentioned this before in a thread, last week or so. I generally got little feed back and loads of neg for it but I stand by what I said, and this OP.

    Personally I dont like PvP and I dont play it. Ive had a tinker in the brawl pits, decided it wasnt for me and not been back.

    I dont have anything against it being in the game though as long as it doesnt detract devs time, development money and game balance for PvE.

    On that basis it makes perfect sense to set up a small PvP division within the DDO main team.

    However much it will cost to develop PvP that cost should be picked up by people who want to play it. Therefore, PvP gets fincial investment allowing turbine to employ other resources to develop without it effecting the "main" game.

    They could design it so your character can have a different setting the moment you zone into a fight pit (rather then the open door in a tavern atm. That way when you go on a dungeon crawl you have Pve specs balanced for that part of the game then in the pit it is rebalanced for that enviroment.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.
    I see this ALOT in many threads.

    1. People are more than willing to come out and say this (insert aspect of game here) completely sucks and ask what Turbine was thinking when they put it in.

    2. Very few people are willing to suggest an alternate system. I have a feeling that its due to the fact that they know their fellow forumites will put their suggestion under the microscope and show them how its not nearly as good of a business decision as what is currently live.

    That being said, good luck. D&D has 30+ years of never being balanced for PVP behind it. It will be hard to balance any incarnation of this game so there isnt a few classes / builds that simply cant be touched, or can only be beat by another very specific combination.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    I get that there is not a big draw for pvp from many of us. As I said in my original post not really a fan of it myself. I do understand though that we are not the same game we started out as. We have attracted a new crop of players for better or worst. If there is a way for them to add a better pvp dynamic that does not affect general game play, brings extra dollars into the game and the like I dont see why anyone would balk at it. Ive tried other mmos that have the optional pvp some separate by servers some have toggles. They have it from the ground up though, so with ddo it would probably take a major overhaul for them to get it out of the afterthought section.

    so basically I thought if people are so passionate about pvp that they can come to this section to vent about powers and balance why not get a focused thought together and see where it goes?

    Oh and Chai I know its the nature of gamers to complain you cant satisfy every one but I know when I asked for housing I pretty much faced the same thing many people in this section wanted. Only difference is sticking at it adding why I felt it should be put in and not adding unnecessary untrue facts I think helps. I saw plenty of good ideas already in this thread and not many people talking for others which is a good thing. I just think that those who are into pvp should try to have a more coherent voice if they want to be taken seriously. And putting their money where their gripe is may help as well.

    Oh and thanks Thailand Dan but as Ive said before I dont participate in the rep system no more I dont want a rating system stopping me from speaking my mind too distracting from the issues for me
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