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  1. #1
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Default Bard 19/Sorc 1: Why?

    So I was chatting with one of my guildies, and talking about how Charisma-based classes tend to not play with other Charisma-based classes. And he brought up the Bard 19/Sorc 1 builds. "For the SP", he says. He doesn't agree with it, but that seems to be the reason given.

    Now, I was on my Spellsinger at the time, and I'm looking at my SP bar.. 1599 SP.

    Then I decide to do some fancy math and see how much SP is granted.
    +180 SP, Sorc Level 1 w/Magical Training.
    +17 SP, max extra bonus for Archmagi + 150 GS SP.
    -25 SP, loss of Bard Level 20
    -29 SP, loss of Bardic Capstone's +2 to Charisma, and the Bonus spell points that came with it.
    = 143 SP gained.

    ... I admit, I am a bit confused about the "Bonus Spell Points" section. From what I'm reading, 1 Level of Sorc w/38 Charisma would be giving..an extra 140 bonus SP?

    If I'm reading that right, that's 283 SP. If someone else could confirm, that'd be great.

    Be the number 143, or 283, is it crazy of me to not understand this build? Multiclassing at the last minute loses you:

    Improved Inspire Courage 3 (+1 Attack, Damage, Save vs. Charm/Fear Effects)
    +3 Songs
    +3 Spell Pen
    +3 Enchantment DC, +1 other DCs
    +20% Duration to Beneficial Songs
    +1 Attack Bonus
    +1 Reflex Save
    Edit:+2 to UMD/Diplo/many other Charisma-Based skills.

    To gain:
    +1 Will Save
    +2 1st Level Sorc Spells
    +143/283 Spell points.

    Is this really a useful tradeoff? I see a lot of good Bardic multiclasses out there, but this one just does not seem appealing. Anyone have any insight into this?
    Last edited by TheDearLeader; 05-04-2011 at 04:46 AM.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDearLeader View Post
    Anyone have any insight into this?
    As a first impression, it sounds to me like the old "Sorcs and FVS get up to double SP from SP items" trap.

    I'd read the bonus SP section as a +140 SP for 38 Cha, as well.

    I don't consider this a reasonable tradeoff. And I don't think that 18/2 or 19/1 splits on a bard are really that good at the moment, especially with no Tier3 pres to make that 18 or 19 levels work. Imho, you are too close to the really useful capstone (both for the DPS and non-DPS support) to justify such a spread. I don't even like the class split of my 18/2 bard, but that's fine.
    Toons on Orien: Meinir // Flodur // Twiddler // Thorkar // Impetor // Juliacantor // Minor all Soko Irrlicht
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  3. #3
    Community Member barryman5000's Avatar
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    We all know its not very smart to splash 1 level of sorc but most people do it for the that small sp gain at creation. You get 200 sp from magical training for 1 level of sorc. At low levels that can equal alot more healing and buffs.

  4. #4
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    its not a good tradeoff sp is less of an issue now you got the spellsong vigor
    but even before that it was a nono because you loose just to much to just gain
    a lill sp, even if you spec 4 sorc to get imp max ext etc its still a bad tradeoff.

    I've yet to see a spellcasting bard that is functional with a splash of anything, spellcasting def got the shorter end of the stick compared to its big warchanter brother.

    the capstone and the nature of a bard having only functional enchant spec
    school casting + the nature of songs and lvl ups + competing vs the better songs of the warchanter, just limits the spellcasting bard to one kind of school and that is pure..

  5. #5
    Community Member Kza's Avatar
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    Its an old old build from when cap lvl was 10. At lvl 10 wo prestiges and other things (capstone). You really didnt gain much by going 10 to bard for example. So you could splash a lvl sorc for some mana. Some clerics did that also. Gained some didnt lose anything important. That has changed dramatically now with capstones. From being an ok build 9/1 (maybe even better than 10 to being really poor at 20.

  6. #6
    Hero
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    19 bard/1 sorc is a haggle bard build. Completely terribad for doing content, but the best at selling items to vendors for maximum price.
    U19 Kensei: Centered Cleaver | TR Junkie Leveling Framework

    ~Ying~ (10 lives), ~Hamada~(9 lives), ~Vadanken~ (6 lives), ~Kobeyashi~ (10 lives)
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  7. #7
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    It is also possible that could be an extremely old build back in the day when there was no capstones or lvl 20 cap it was actually a popular build.

    Now it is a bad build and should be lessered or put away as a haggle toon.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  8. #8
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    19 bard/1 sorc is a haggle bard build. Completely terribad for doing content, but the best at selling items to vendors for maximum price.
    How can a 19/1 bard achieve better haggling values than a pure one, especially considering the fact that the 19/1 loses +2 Cha?
    Toons on Orien: Meinir // Flodur // Twiddler // Thorkar // Impetor // Juliacantor // Minor all Soko Irrlicht
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
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  9. #9
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    We do these things to you Aneist to drive you to drink.

    Your adventures in pugging are not enough.

    /feelthelove


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  10. #10
    Community Member Khanyth's Avatar
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    3 reasons why:

    1. Because they can.
    2. For s's and g's
    3. Just to peave you off

  11. #11
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Much like 1sorc/19wiz builds, its a sign of a new player

  12. #12
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    How can a 19/1 bard achieve better haggling values than a pure one, especially considering the fact that the 19/1 loses +2 Cha?
    I had the same thought.

    The only thought now is now with a 19/1 split like that, they'd at least be regenerating SP when they ran out. Not enough in my opinion

  13. #13
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kza View Post
    Its an old old build from when cap lvl was 10. At lvl 10 wo prestiges and other things (capstone). You really didnt gain much by going 10 to bard for example. So you could splash a lvl sorc for some mana. Some clerics did that also. Gained some didnt lose anything important. That has changed dramatically now with capstones. From being an ok build 9/1 (maybe even better than 10 to being really poor at 20.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    It is also possible that could be an extremely old build back in the day when there was no capstones or lvl 20 cap it was actually a popular build.

    Now it is a bad build and should be lessered or put away as a haggle toon.
    Bilger says to Kza what I would have, were I not unconscious at the time. Validating a 19/1 build based upon 9/1 class split is lame, what with how easy it is to LR +1/TR any toon now. 20 Bound-To-Account Epic Dungeon Tokens is a small price to pay to not get autodeclined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    19 bard/1 sorc is a haggle bard build. Completely terribad for doing content, but the best at selling items to vendors for maximum price.
    As others have said, math this for me please? I think your haggle-fu is weak, sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    We do these things to you Aneist to drive you to drink.

    Your adventures in pugging are not enough.

    /feelthelove

    This conspiracy theory seems like the most legit piece of information here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khanyth View Post
    3 reasons why:

    1. Because they can.
    2. For s's and g's
    3. Just to peave you off
    Your country speaks French, therefore all information your provide is dismissed. No mercy in this dojo.
    -----------------------------------------------

    So in summary, there is no defense for this build? No saving grace, raison d'etre (>.> wait that's French. Pretend I said 존재 있는 이유, that's better.) or whatever? No specific way in which this shines, given the content or today, 3 updates ago, or even 8 updates ago?

  14. #14
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDearLeader View Post
    So I was chatting with one of my guildies, and talking about how Charisma-based classes tend to not play with other Charisma-based classes.
    My impression is that Sorc 18/Pal 2 is a very good combination.
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

    "Of course it is. Are YOU going to question beholder's artistic sense?"

  15. #15
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Everyone here is missing the most major reason to not splash 1 level of Sorc. Most bards that go pure bard are not warchanters. Warchanters typically have some sort of rogue, fighter, barbarian splash involved in them to bring a larger dps boost. With that being said it's more common for a Spellsinger to stay pure. The bard's capstone is an incredibly powerful boost to a spellsinger. You're adding +2 charisma, +2 spell pen, +2 additional songs, +2 enchantment DC's and 20% increase in length of your songs.

    If you're warchanter the obvious answer is no
    If you're spellsinger the answer is an absolutely no
    If you're virtuso who cares

  16. #16
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian14 View Post
    My impression is that Sorc 18/Pal 2 is a very good combination.
    Good at *what*, exactly? Just because I see a build make it to 20 and stay there doesn't mean I think it's doing anything worthwhile.

    Be a pure Sorc - freeze over existing universe - build a new one on the Icy remains. Water Savant - it's where it's at, yo.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendover View Post
    Everyone here is missing the most major reason to not splash 1 level of Sorc. Most bards that go pure bard are not warchanters. Warchanters typically have some sort of rogue, fighter, barbarian splash involved in them to bring a larger dps boost. With that being said it's more common for a Spellsinger to stay pure. The bard's capstone is an incredibly powerful boost to a spellsinger. You're adding +2 charisma, +2 spell pen, +2 additional songs, +2 enchantment DC's and 20% increase in length of your songs.

    If you're warchanter the obvious answer is no
    If you're spellsinger the answer is an absolutely no
    If you're virtuso who cares
    Yeah... that's pretty much it.

    If you're Warchanter splash, you probably already have three classes, and Sorc isn't one of them.

    If they're wanting SP, it means they want to cast more spells.. which to me screams Spellsinger. And Spellsingers are the ones that benefit most from the Capstone.

    And Virtuosos.. well, who cares? They're just there to Haggle at the vendors anyway, right? And to tell us how they have somewhere around 35 songs or something... which might impress me if it took more than 15 to do *anything*. I suppose if I gave Inspire Heroics to the Sorc to boost his/her AC, then maybe I'd run out of songs... blah.

    Well said, but you're still on +1 Cooldown :P

  17. #17
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian14 View Post
    My impression is that Sorc 18/Pal 2 is a very good combination.
    no, not really. it's not a completely horrible combination, but the benefit you get out of those 2 paladin levels doesn't really outweigh the loss of the 2 sorcerer levels, and i doubt you're gaining enough melee capability to make up for it (i could see a deeper splash being pretty decent in melee though...)

  18. #18
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    no, not really. it's not a completely horrible combination, but the benefit you get out of those 2 paladin levels doesn't really outweigh the loss of the 2 sorcerer levels, and i doubt you're gaining enough melee capability to make up for it (i could see a deeper splash being pretty decent in melee though...)
    Yes, I could see a deeper splash being more successful. Splash the remaining 18 Sorc levels into Paladin, so you're 18 Paladin/2 Paladin, and I think the build would work rather well.

  19. #19
    Community Member MsEricka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik
    We do these things to you Aneist to drive you to drink.
    This

    Also, I had forgotten the magical training SP. Even if you did mention it last night I was too tired (or ignoring you and reading the forums) to think about it

    I suppose that would help out at very low levels. Then LR +1 the sorc out when you get higher levels.

    Oh ya, whenever McPhail says "I was chatting with one of my guildies", it's usually me. For some reason my brain comes up with things that make you say "what?!". And they usually happen between 3 and 4AM lol

  20. #20
    Community Member Doxmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    19 bard/1 sorc is a haggle bard build. Completely terribad for doing content, but the best at selling items to vendors for maximum price.
    Hahaha-no. Not at all.

    A TRASHED haggle toon, that was messed up and left to do that 1 thing, maybe. It isnt a haggle build though. 20 bard, with SF:haggle is a haggle build. Perhaps X bard/Y rogue for the skill boost, if the capstone is only +2 cha and you get all the buffs, etc. Hell, maybe even Xbard/yranger, since they get the skill boost too. Not sorcerer though.
    Last edited by Doxmaster; 05-04-2011 at 01:29 PM.

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