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  1. #21
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Since Threnal west 3 is an original release quest.. The designers obviously intended it to be ran on elite at lvl10.. I mean that was the cap at the time. The fact that elite quest shave always gotten a +2 lvl mod, isn't to suggest what lvl it's intended to be played by.. It was always originally only for 2 purposes: Additional Loot and XP. Since in the original release, Quest lvl = loot lvl, and +1/2 lvls = extra xp.. It made sense. Ofcourse today with the more arbitrary setting of loot lvls and no more xp bonuses for quests above lvl, it makes less sense.. But the intent hasn't changed.

    So to say
    "We were all underlevel for the finale."
    Seems a bit silly. You were mostly 11.. and probably had equipment far beyond what anyone could of hoped for back in mod0-1 days (Sure your using core rules, but I bet you have korthos sets at least, which is far more powerful then anything that was otherwise easily available back then)
    If anything, you were overleveld for what it was designed for... Thus the somewhat low rating for what was once one of the hardest quests in the game.

    Just kind of reflects how the game got so much easier over the years. Wish they would give us a higher difficulty setting that wasn't restricted to lvl20s only to give us a challenge, without having to resort to meta gaming.
    I disagree that korthos set is more powerful than anything available "back then". As far as wishing for a higher difficulty setting that isn't restricted to level 20s. Um...is there a forest in the way of the tree you're looking for in the middle of the PERMADEATH forums?
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  2. #22
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The point is if we start down the road of "this is what absolute challenge is" and "I can log into your guild and see people not following that rule" - Then I say I can show you that in every single guild. My example still holds true for a number of reasons. I will continue to outline this below.

    Doing deleras part 1 on elite at level 10 in a full group doesnt seem like it would be too challenging, but hey, the absolute unbendable rule of challenge states that the last quest is level 8 and we can add 2 levels for elite so its level 10. This is why I dont believe we can just stick a quantity value on challenge and call it a day.

    Before DA, we used to plow this series on elite with level 6s pre korthos sets, pre FvS, pre radiant servant, most PRE lines werent in the game yet - long story short, not only were the builds less powerful, but the gear was far less powerful as well. Some of this stuff is guaranteed, like the korthos set. Any melee can have +3 to hit just from their gear before they set foot in the harbor. Theres no reason why full groups cant do this stuff now at level on elite (not +2 level)

    I dont believe in the 2 level rule for elite and the 1 level rule for hard. This is in place for XP and loot purposes. The devs are using the level of the quest as a guideline, and if we start using it as an absolute, I will point out the faults in doing so. You want to say that people will gravitate to the path of least resistance? This is what they will gravitate to. Deleras part 1 at level 10. VON 1 at level 11. Tangleroot chain at level 9. Sharn at level 7. Waterworks at level 6. STK at level 7. Threnal at level 12. Korthos at level 5. Necropolis 1 series at level 8. Necropolis 2 series at level 11. Cult of the six series at level 12. Catacombs at level 6. All would be legit under a ruleset where we are allowed to add 2 levels for elite status, and we can run the chain at the highest level of the highest quest in the chain.

    One could level a toon on this content alone. One or two poorly designed series eh? Its alot more than that. I think the design is correct, its the ruleset thats flawed, or the fact that the rules are absolute that is flawed, especially if you are a proponent that people absolutely will gravitate to the path of least resistance. That path is paved in gold making these rules absolute. Please also note that I stopped at necro 2 - there are MANY more instances where this type of absolute rule can be exploited for easy XP leveling. This is what happens when we make absolute rules to govern our play experience, and NOT when we play without them and determine challenge on a case by case basis.
    Deleras part 1 at level 10. -- It's one part. So what. What do you propose?
    VON 1 at level 11. -- We don't treat VoN as a series.
    Tangleroot chain at level 9. -- OK, another flawed design. What do you propose?
    Sharn at level 7. -- Sharn is level six on elite. It's not the ultimate challange, but it's fair.
    Waterworks at level 6. -- Stupid recent move by Turbine to increase the level.
    STK at level 7. -- OK
    Threnal at level 12. -- In our rules, this is a fair chalalnge. Certainly not impossible.
    Korthos at level 5. -- We don't treat Korthos as a series.
    Necropolis 1 series at level 8. -- If a group is really going to stay together and complete the whole series with nothing else between, I suppose they could do this. The four pre-quests have surprised us on elite lately.
    Necropolis 2 series at level 11. -- I was in the first Sublime group that ever finished King. It wasn't elite and we were over level. With a few players that haven't run all the game content to the ground in non-PD, it was crazy. Really hard but fun. In MV, it's still a solid challenge.
    Cult of the six series at level 12. -- OK.
    Catacombs at level 6. -- OK again.

    So. By your count, we have six series quests that are old and poorly designed.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    I disagree that korthos set is more powerful than anything available "back then". As far as wishing for a higher difficulty setting that isn't restricted to level 20s. Um...is there a forest in the way of the tree you're looking for in the middle of the PERMADEATH forums?
    +3 to hit means you can basically turn on power attack and not receive much of a penalty for a while. Using a two hander you now have +10 damage on every hit at level 5.

    What gave you +10 damage per hit at level 5 back then?
    Last edited by Chai; 05-06-2011 at 09:00 PM.

  4. #24
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Deleras part 1 at level 10. -- It's one part. So what. What do you propose?
    VON 1 at level 11. -- We don't treat VoN as a series.
    Tangleroot chain at level 9. -- OK, another flawed design. What do you propose?
    Sharn at level 7. -- Sharn is level six on elite. It's not the ultimate challange, but it's fair.
    Waterworks at level 6. -- Stupid recent move by Turbine to increase the level.
    STK at level 7. -- OK
    Threnal at level 12. -- In our rules, this is a fair chalalnge. Certainly not impossible.
    Korthos at level 5. -- We don't treat Korthos as a series.
    Necropolis 1 series at level 8. -- If a group is really going to stay together and complete the whole series with nothing else between, I suppose they could do this. The four pre-quests have surprised us on elite lately.
    Necropolis 2 series at level 11. -- I was in the first Sublime group that ever finished King. It wasn't elite and we were over level. With a few players that haven't run all the game content to the ground in non-PD, it was crazy. Really hard but fun. In MV, it's still a solid challenge.
    Cult of the six series at level 12. -- OK.
    Catacombs at level 6. -- OK again.
    None of this stuff is challenging for an experienced party at the levels I posted. I only went to level 12. On that ruleset you can ride the easy train to level 20. Threnal at 12? It was designed to be run by 10s, as 10 was max level when it came out. It was considered one of the loot runs when the game was capped at 10. We used to hit it on 8s and 9s.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    So. By your count, we have six series quests that are old and poorly designed.
    I did not say they were poor quest design. Its the ruleset that I am questioning. The quest design is fine, if you run them at level.

    All would be legit under a ruleset where we are allowed to add 2 levels for elite status, and we can run the chain at the highest level of the highest quest in the chain. This time in order of level - looks like there are a few more than 6 here. Keep in mind I went to level 12 and stopped There are many more. I can keep going if you like. You make the arguement that people gravitate toward the easy path? This is that easy path, using that ruleset as an absolute.

    Korthos at level 5
    Catacombs at level 6
    Waterworks at level 6
    STK at level 7
    Sharn at level 7
    Necropolis 1 series at level 8
    Tangleroot chain at level 9
    Deleras part at level 10.
    VON at level 11
    Necropolis 2 series at level 11
    Threnal at level 12
    Cult of the six series at level 12

    There is also enough xp in these chains to never have to leave the easy path, where the rules no longer allow running lower level quests on higher level toons simply because they are part of a chain that has higher level quests in it.

    A much more challenging path if you insist on being absolute, would be to do two things.

    1. ditch the +2 for elite mentality.
    2. average the levels out on the chain and thats the max level you can run it on. Add em up and divide by the number of quests. D&D used average CL and CR to make determinations, not max CL or CR. Emulating that provides much more of a challenge.

    Deleras, which you can run at 10, now becomes a level ~7 chain.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-06-2011 at 09:22 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Are you serious? +3 to hit means you can basically turn on power attack and not receive much of a penalty for a while. Using a two hander you now have +10 damage on every hit after level 5.

    What gave you +10 damage per hit between levels 1-5 back then?
    Where were you when I was playing DDO at launch? Most players were spamming melee attacks so fast (using an expoit) that attack bonus made no difference. Greymoon had ridiculously bugged loot tables that were as monty as I've ever seen. My first character had a Holy Greatsword at level six from Greymoon. How soon we forget... Well built melee characters were ridiculous back then too. I didn't like it, but thankfully I was turned on to PD play before I quit.
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  6. #26
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    None of this stuff is challenging for a party at the levels I posted. I only went to level 12. On that ruleset you can ride the easy train to level 20. Threnal at 12? It was designed to be run by 10s, as 10 was max level when it cane out.
    Wanna guess what the level of characters were in your guild that first completed Threnal? Wanna guess what the level cap was? I agree some of those quests are not that challenging at level. I doubt any of them are for you.

    I think on the inside you want to tougher rules, but keep trying to talk your way out of it.
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  7. #27
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Sorry to point out an obvious flaw in your reasoning, but we don't shrine. That quest has wiped PD parties. And it is very long. I stand by the challenge rating.
    The problem is that different approaches and different pdeath rulesets will produce different difficulties for different quests. For example, your ruleset will make any quest beyond a certain length or with more than a certain total number of mobs a lot more difficult than any of the ones that require shrining - even the quests that are in fact quite easy for anyone who does use shrining.

    On the other hand, some quests don't require or have any shrines and those will be just the same for you as they are for, say, Parvo, other variations permitting.

    That means all your challenge ratings can represent is how hard something is under the specific ruleset you play.

    Another good example is that quests that highly prefer specialized equipment (wehther that be deathblock, metalline or some other kind of feature) will be disproprotionately harder for a group like yours that only runs quests once than any that permits quest repetition, because you guys will get less shots at those items leveling up. You will probably still get them, but the instance of not having them before something like say von3 are much higher.

    Thats to say nothing of how 'elite only' would put a disproportionate premium on rogueskills in nearly every party for most quests, whereas anyone permitted to run normal or hard might be able to avoid or withstand (painfully) specific traps that will pretty much require disabling for an elite run. This means youll have a proportionately higher number of rogue-capable characters in your guild.

  8. #28
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Wanna guess what the level of characters were in your guild that first completed Threnal? Wanna guess what the level cap was? I agree some of those quests are not that challenging at level. I doubt any of them are for you.

    I think on the inside you want to tougher rules, but keep trying to talk your way out of it.
    I dont need absolute rules, due to the fact that I determine challenge on a case by case basis, and can tailor the challenge to the specific case scenario. The D&D way is average character level and average quest level.

    As I explained before, I can find those absurd examples of people running quests on way overlevel toons in any guild, as I have already highlighted.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-06-2011 at 10:57 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Where were you when I was playing DDO at launch? Most players were spamming melee attacks so fast (using an expoit) that attack bonus made no difference. Greymoon had ridiculously bugged loot tables that were as monty as I've ever seen. My first character had a Holy Greatsword at level six from Greymoon. How soon we forget... Well built melee characters were ridiculous back then too. I didn't like it, but thankfully I was turned on to PD play before I quit.
    I remember the exploit, people called it spaz attacking.

    Compared to the stuff we have now, that loot is trash. Back then a +1 holy weapon was like 200k on the market. Nowdays we vendor them. People have holy pure good with festival icy burst on it for their TRs.

    We had no PRE back then. Compare a kensai or stalwart of today to a fighter back then, not even close.

    Remember when beholders were scary? They arent if youre running VON at level 11.

    Its not even apples to oranges comparing 2006 DDO to DDO of today. Its like apples to sherman tanks.

    Perminent curses and stat debuffs, perminent neg levels, XP debt on death, 0 in some stats = death. Hell, I remember when many wizards and rogues didnt survive the first lockania game orientation quest. Waterworks was lower level. poisons and diseases stayed on until you made multiple saves. Each time you did not , they perminently debuffed a stat.

    No sir, any illusions that this game was easier then, are false. Its MUCH easier now. Night and day. Experienced players who want a challenge have to make adjustments for the quests that were designed and assigned level ratings in days when they were harder to complete.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-06-2011 at 11:30 PM.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    The problem is that different approaches and different pdeath rulesets will produce different difficulties for different quests. For example, your ruleset will make any quest beyond a certain length or with more than a certain total number of mobs a lot more difficult than any of the ones that require shrining - even the quests that are in fact quite easy for anyone who does use shrining.

    On the other hand, some quests don't require or have any shrines and those will be just the same for you as they are for, say, Parvo, other variations permitting.

    That means all your challenge ratings can represent is how hard something is under the specific ruleset you play.

    Another good example is that quests that highly prefer specialized equipment (wehther that be deathblock, metalline or some other kind of feature) will be disproprotionately harder for a group like yours that only runs quests once than any that permits quest repetition, because you guys will get less shots at those items leveling up. You will probably still get them, but the instance of not having them before something like say von3 are much higher.

    Thats to say nothing of how 'elite only' would put a disproportionate premium on rogueskills in nearly every party for most quests, whereas anyone permitted to run normal or hard might be able to avoid or withstand (painfully) specific traps that will pretty much require disabling for an elite run. This means youll have a proportionately higher number of rogue-capable characters in your guild.
    Yeah Junts, that's the whole point of this thread. As far as I know we have the most restrictive ruleset and often don't run in full parties. So the challenge rating I post is assuming only The Core rules. PD play from my perspective only.

    And yes, we have a fair number of Mechanic I, probably WAY more than a non-PD guild, who likely have players aiming high on the kill count and going for Assassin. But that's not a mark against us. We just want to beat the game and complete quests.
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  11. #31

    Default A Small Problem

    A Small Problem elite 5-man. Characters were:

    Phunkulon, wf sorcerer 7.
    Missomething, dorf barb/fighter, 8
    Dreadsun, half-elf favored soul, 8.
    Penx, dorf, fighter/paladin 8.
    Mohocus, half-elf, rogue/monk/favored soul, 8.

    Had single digit spell points when we completed. And a few tight moments, but no one went incapped or fled from fights.

    A good revenge run since my Sunblade-wielding rogue/ranger Monekodes died in there last week.

    Challenge rating: 7.
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  12. #32

    Default Stromvauld's Mine elite

    On elite, three-man plus one Mummy Lord nicknamed Crusty.

    Monincha, level 11, monk 9/rogue 2.
    Nazmarikk, level 11, radiant servant.
    Bladesun, level 11, fighter/monk/ranger.

    Some tough mobs in here, at spots, but we had a good mix for it.

    Challenge rating: 5.
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  13. #33
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    On elite, three-man plus one Mummy Lord nicknamed Crusty.

    Monincha, level 11, monk 9/rogue 2.
    Nazmarikk, level 11, radiant servant.
    Bladesun, level 11, fighter/monk/ranger.

    Some tough mobs in here, at spots, but we had a good mix for it.

    Challenge rating: 5.

    On your scale, what challenge rating do you think is best to maintain?
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  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    On your scale, what challenge rating do you think is best to maintain?
    I think a challenge rating of 5-7 provides a good amount of fun with a decent chance to complete without a death if you play smart. Tonight we ran Western Threnal again, character levels 11, 11, 10, 10, 8, and we had one death in part three and couldn't complete. Half-orc with a greatsword was the only one doing truly decent damage against the Flesh Renders and he was swinging for the fences and wouldn't back off to put up a shield at a crucial moment. Avoidable death.

    Challenge rating 1-4 is not desireable but just going to happen when people are running in full parties through quests they know very well.

    Challenge rating 8-10 is crazy fun and you know people are going to die: Chronoscope was like that, and I suppose Von III would be up there to. Great to try, but don't get your hopes up.
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  15. #35

    Default Eastern Threnal elite

    On elite the max level was 12 because the first part is a level 9. Very short part 1, so no problem there. It was part 2 I was worried about because it is listed as very long. We had the choice of going in on hard because part 2 is a level 11 on hard, but we wanted to ramp it up a bit and go for elite. If we skipped elite, it's very unlikely any of these toons would have had the chance to come back for it.

    Part 2 elite, Challenge rating: 6. If you have to conserve spell points and not cast the usuals-- freedom of movement, resist energy, deathward, repeated mass aid, circle against evil-- things could get interesting fast. My cleric skimped on buffs, probably too much, but I wanted to have lots of sp for healing.

    Part 3 on hard, Challenge rating: 5. We chickened out and I played Lead Chicken in advocating hard. I have a feeling we probably could have handled elite, but maybe not worth the risk. At this point, we just wanted the series in the bag.

    First two parts of south will be on elite as well due to our levels. By the way, Mophelia (see The Last Waltz) picked a suit of +4 mithril full plate off her otherwise mediocre rewards list. /woot
    Last edited by Duncani_Daho; 05-09-2011 at 05:50 AM.
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  16. #36

    Default More runs from yesterday

    Big Top elite, challenge rating 4. Definitely a weaker quest than either A Small Problem and Partycrashers. And it's kind of a let down when you're expecting the difficulty to be ramped up for the finale completion and the earning of the reward. Found and promptly destroyed two names in optional encounters; the Boss fight here is all spectacle, no drama.

    Sykros Jewel, on elite. Challenge rating: 7.

    Character levels 12, 12, 12, 12, 10. I could have brought in a level 13 per Core rules, but I was having fun playing a dashing drow swordsman named Modunaiho. Actually, the recent changes to intimidate are pretty interesting, and I can say pretty confidently that this easy button was taken away with Update 9. Runs in Western Threnal elite and Sykros Jewel illustrated the changes well enough. No more "intimidate and shield block" for the win. You will not hold aggro long enough. Now intimitanks will have to carry their DPS card or be turned away at the door. Or be very good with tactics: stunning blow or improved trip. And those with Improved Shield Mastery might consider dumping it-- an extra 5% off physical damage from melee attacks just isn't worth a feat in my opinion. Blocking DR got the nerf bat, adjust or pay the price.

    Modunainho has weapons finese, whirlwind attack, and recently swapped out Improved Shield Mastery for Improved Crit: Piercing. He wielded a +3 Crippling Rapier of Righteousness in Sykros Jewel and we had some close calls. My intimidate was successful 99% of the time, but holding aggro was a challenge. It makes playing an intimitank a more thoughtful experience. Cap off to Turbine for that...
    Last edited by Duncani_Daho; 05-09-2011 at 06:14 AM.
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  17. #37
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    I think one little change that could make a big difference would be not using eternal wands. As of mod nine, those little buggers can top off 75 HP after almost every battle. Who uses these annoying things in "normal" play? Why did Turbine decide to crank up the regen rate?
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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    I think one little change that could make a big difference would be not using eternal wands. As of mod nine, those little buggers can top off 75 HP after almost every battle. Who uses these annoying things in "normal" play? Why did Turbine decide to crank up the regen rate?
    Agreed. The change was really uncalled for. They should have made the wands 50 charges that never regens in a dungeon. But upon an extended rest, the wand is back up to 50 charges.

    Now that they are in the game-- and the acid splash wand from ww is way overpowered for low levels too-- I don't think we can get rid of them. Level 4-6 characters who ran catacombs and picked up the wand will be jilted out of a reward if they are forced to destroy them.

    More and more I'm leaning towards a "play ball!" attitude that tolerates unchallenging play at the low levels in order to get to juicier bits at higher levels. The eternal wand won't make a big difference later-- it'll just be used to top people off, since my dwarf barbarian Mobararo has 300+ hp at level 13.
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  19. #39
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Agreed. The change was really uncalled for. They should have made the wands 50 charges that never regens in a dungeon. But upon an extended rest, the wand is back up to 50 charges.

    Now that they are in the game-- and the acid splash wand from ww is way overpowered for low levels too-- I don't think we can get rid of them. Level 4-6 characters who ran catacombs and picked up the wand will be jilted out of a reward if they are forced to destroy them.

    More and more I'm leaning towards a "play ball!" attitude that tolerates unchallenging play at the low levels in order to get to juicier bits at higher levels. The eternal wand won't make a big difference later-- it'll just be used to top people off, since my dwarf barbarian Mobararo has 300+ hp at level 13.
    I used to throw that stupid things out about level 8 or so because they are so annoying to use. If we decide to ban them in MV, it won't hurt my feelings.

    One thing about "play ball" is how it affects groups long term. A big reason I play permadeath is to get away from stupid play. With a tough rule set, stupid play gets weeded out at low levels and the higher level groups naturally evolve into outstanding teams. No one is perfect and we all still make mistakes, but the groups are so good there is usually someone on their A game to make up for it. Allowing easier progression will result in more bad play at higher levels. New players wont learn as much and old players will lose their edge.

    It's the balance game between allowing progression for good play, controlling burn out, and maintaining a sense of accomplishment. We had a great balance going for MV and Turb shat upon it. I think the devs won't be happy until two dead fish can duo to 20, using The Core rules. It's amazing to me. How much lower can the bar go? Casual, scaling, hirelings, 1/2 price spells, nerfed enemies. I don't care a flip when they provide an easy button to the PUG masses that we can easily ignore. Hirelings was perfect. Casual, no problem. Just ignore those. But 1/2 price spells just screws everything up. Meh...I'm rambling...
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  20. #40

    Default Devils Assault, no devils and hardly an assault

    It's painful to have to report it here, but I give Devil's Assault on normal a challenge rating of 1. It confirms what I found out about a month ago. The dev's broke this one. It used to be fun.

    Please put the challenge back into it!
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