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  1. #41
    Community Member MrChipinator's Avatar
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    Casters are rather annoying in PvP when they try to, otherwise, they're not that bad. I feel that preventing Empower from being used would be fair. Spells would still be powerful, but it wouldn't consist of: "Fire Sav: Scorching Ray" "Ice Sav: Frost Lance" insta-death. Back in the day, casters could have 3-4 minute battles with nobody winning until someone forgot their thirst quencher.

  2. #42
    Community Member Jendrak's Avatar
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    I normally try and stay away from pvp threads simply because I don't use it regularly. However, after reading this complaints and suggestions as well as several others I can't help but notice that no one has something very important.

    TAVERN BRAWLS ARENT THE ONLY PVP IN DDO.

    All of the nerf this and change that is based on the small confines of a tavern brawl and is only half the expirence. While getting many shotted to death or dotted into oblivion is very sucky all of these can be avoided much easier in a larger arena. Changing anything in game for a tavern brawl is simply a waste of time.
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  3. #43
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Simplest fix for PvP in DDO: Remove it

    I could go into details but why bother.

  4. #44
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    I normally try and stay away from pvp threads simply because I don't use it regularly. However, after reading this complaints and suggestions as well as several others I can't help but notice that no one has something very important.

    TAVERN BRAWLS ARENT THE ONLY PVP IN DDO.

    All of the nerf this and change that is based on the small confines of a tavern brawl and is only half the expirence. While getting many shotted to death or dotted into oblivion is very sucky all of these can be avoided much easier in a larger arena. Changing anything in game for a tavern brawl is simply a waste of time.
    Do you know anyone that plays pvp in any other mode than tavern brawls? I haven't seen or heard of it. We can safely assume that tavern brawls are between 90 and 100% of the pvp in DDO. Therefore it makes sense to make the pvp adjustments with tavern brawls in mind. The changes would not be devastating in larger arenas, anyway. Why do you think they would?

    Moreover, I've proven that most of my changes (particular to spells) take little time. Most changes requires ONE line of code that can be copy-pasted. I don't see any good argument against the changes. You can see this as some sort of 'pareto-improvement'. The pve'ers are off the same, while pvp'ers are better off... the changes don't hurt you at all.
    Last edited by Forzah; 10-19-2011 at 04:00 AM.

  5. #45
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    Nothing is too deadly...
    If anyone thinks something is OP, then read my everything IS nerfed post and then think again, if u still think something is OP, then post it there and I will reply. Every class get's bonusses, even barbarians can be very deadly pvp'ers, so why just take away EVERYONE's ability to make pvp boring lol

  6. #46
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Buy deathblock item, and wow! You're immune to instakills!

  7. #47
    Community Member gloopygloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Do you know anyone that plays pvp in any other mode than tavern brawls? I haven't seen or heard of it. We can safely assume that tavern brawls are between 90 and 100% of the pvp in DDO. Therefore it makes sense to make the pvp adjustments with tavern brawls in mind. The changes would not be devastating in larger arenas, anyway. Why do you think they would?
    And if 90% of the player base decided to stay on Korthos, the answer still wouldn't be to change the game for balance on Korthos, but to get the players to experience the broader game.

    Moreover, I've proven that most of my changes (particular to spells) take little time. Most changes requires ONE line of code that can be copy-pasted. I don't see any good argument against the changes. You can see this as some sort of 'pareto-improvement'. The pve'ers are off the same, while pvp'ers are better off... the changes don't hurt you at all.
    You've claimed that your changes take little time. You haven't proven anything since you have no idea how much spaghetti code is in DDO and what kind of ripple effects these changes might have in the broader game. I certainly think that it is reasonable to expect that most of the changes will be fairly easy, but there was no "proof" in any of your posts in this thread.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Do you know anyone that plays pvp in any other mode than tavern brawls? I haven't seen or heard of it. We can safely assume that tavern brawls are between 90 and 100% of the pvp in DDO. Therefore it makes sense to make the pvp adjustments with tavern brawls in mind. The changes would not be devastating in larger arenas, anyway. Why do you think they would?

    Moreover, I've proven that most of my changes (particular to spells) take little time. Most changes requires ONE line of code that can be copy-pasted. I don't see any good argument against the changes. You can see this as some sort of 'pareto-improvement'. The pve'ers are off the same, while pvp'ers are better off... the changes don't hurt you at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    And if 90% of the player base decided to stay on Korthos, the answer still wouldn't be to change the game for balance on Korthos, but to get the players to experience the broader game.

    You've claimed that your changes take little time. You haven't proven anything since you have no idea how much spaghetti code is in DDO and what kind of ripple effects these changes might have in the broader game. I certainly think that it is reasonable to expect that most of the changes will be fairly easy, but there was no "proof" in any of your posts in this thread.
    It doesn't matter if the coding for PVP takes longer and is not simple. If Turbine believes there is money to be made from there or there is a significant number of players who desires it, they will do it. And lest anyone argues that PVE will ruin the game, in DDO there are constrained rules for PVP such as many spells and skills not applicable in PVP.

    I don't PvP, but I do know that this is not "my" game. There are some aspects which I don't dabble in, and understand that some folks do. And I support the right of those folks to voice their opinions.

  9. #49
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Do you know anyone that plays pvp in any other mode than tavern brawls? I haven't seen or heard of it. We can safely assume that tavern brawls are between 90 and 100% of the pvp in DDO. Therefore it makes sense to make the pvp adjustments with tavern brawls in mind. The changes would not be devastating in larger arenas, anyway. Why do you think they would?

    Moreover, I've proven that most of my changes (particular to spells) take little time. Most changes requires ONE line of code that can be copy-pasted. I don't see any good argument against the changes. You can see this as some sort of 'pareto-improvement'. The pve'ers are off the same, while pvp'ers are better off... the changes don't hurt you at all.
    I do.

    The gank pits have limitations on them while the Arena's do not. The Arena's are more 'fair and balanced' while the gank pits are not.

    Why would anyone want to try to PvP where the players are more on an even footing?



    Well, since from your arm chair your coding skills can do this in ONE LINE, please step up and do the community a favor and give us that one line of code.


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  10. #50
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    My take on PvP is that the Pits are full a bunch of close-minded bullies and I see no reason to support that kind of play at all.

    The group PvP environments are a totally different story, and I think they should be expanded....a lot!

    Part of my reasoning for this is that I see DDO as a team game. The classes are not, and should not be balanced....especially just to satisfy someone's desire to play a certain class and be able to beat up on some other class in the pits.

    But.... some changes should be made. And PvP (even the pits) have their place and people deserve some support. (just not support tha makes things balanced between the classes IMO)

    All class/spell/etc. abilities SHOULD function in PvP. Best example is stealth.
    Cause while I think it is stupid to stand across the room from someone and try to se who can blast the other one out of existance the fastest, I do think it is a lot of fun to outsmart another player and kill him trough trickery.

    But besides stealth there is a whole bunch of abilites that just do not work in PvP, and I think that is wrong.


    Something I would love to see is a dungeon environment with monsters, where two teams of players can compete for victory of some goal. A large multi-path dungeon, with teleport traps to break up the teams woul dmake this more fun IMO.
    Go slow and careful, or risk finding yourself on the other side of the map alone...
    and have to content with both a dungeon and other advantures.
    Only one team can have victory, but maybe give incentives to work together at times as well.

    I really like this idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  11. #51
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Well, since from your arm chair your coding skills can do this in ONE LINE, please step up and do the community a favor and give us that one line of code.

    Depends a bit on how the objects are written, but there's probably a main object called 'spell' with a property called 'disabledinbrawl'. Each spell inherits this 'disabledinbrawl' property. Standard it is put to 0. Then look up the spell you want to disable and set:

    'disabledinbrawl' = 1.

    and it should be disabled. They did this for firewall, so it can be done for any spell. It's really no magic.

  12. #52
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimaetus View Post
    Man I wish disjunction could be used in brawls.
    Even if, casting time (on quicken) takes hour to cast.

  13. #53
    Community Member Ultimaetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Buy deathblock item, and wow! You're immune to instakills!
    Man I wish disjunction could be used in brawls.

  14. #54
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloopygloop View Post
    And if 90% of the player base decided to stay on Korthos, the answer still wouldn't be to change the game for balance on Korthos, but to get the players to experience the broader game.
    But Korthos content is already balanced . Both you and me know the developers won't spend much time on improving pvp. Therefore, we need something that is quick and improves balance to a decent extent. I agree that there should be more room for grouped pvp, but as it is, it is simply not feasible.

    You've claimed that your changes take little time. You haven't proven anything since you have no idea how much spaghetti code is in DDO and what kind of ripple effects these changes might have in the broader game. I certainly think that it is reasonable to expect that most of the changes will be fairly easy, but there was no "proof" in any of your posts in this thread.
    See post above. In case of spaghetti code it could indeed be bad.

  15. #55
    Community Member stretchcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    My take on PvP is that the Pits are full a bunch of close-minded bullies and I see no reason to support that kind of play at all.

    The group PvP environments are a totally different story, and I think they should be expanded....a lot!
    Exactly. At the moment, mostly tavern pvp seems nothing more than twitch and sniping. If dev time is going to be spent on pvp, let's have it so that it's a viable opportunity for everyone to get into it, not just level 20s and ledge hoppers.
    I know I've run up to the NPCs a couple of times and never actually seen any teams form or queue fill enough for group instances to start. Hell, I wouldn't mind if it was a pay to play pack or a free one, just as long as it would get some use. Question is, would it?

  16. #56
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I bet that list is a complete list of all the things used to defeat the OPs WF sorc. - Somehow those abilities are overpowered, because they are other classes abilities the poster doesnt play, but gets defeated by.

    When is the last time anyone complained about casters being OP in PVP? They wont because this is what most who participate and take it seriously have built, and why would they complain about their own build being OP, when they can list everything other classes have that they can use to actually win once in a while.

    Now lets discuss every single ability casters can use to one shot or two shot anyone they target, which doesnt have a limit of being used 20 seconds out of any two minute period of time. I believe we will find quite a few more of these exist than anything that was listed, hmmmm.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-21-2011 at 01:41 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #57
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I bet that list is a complete list of all the things used to defeat the OPs WF sorc. - Somehow those abilities are overpowered, because they are other classes abilities the poster doesnt play, but gets defeated by.

    When is the last time anyone complained about casters being OP in PVP? They wont because this is what most who participate and take it seriously have built, and why would they complain about their own build being OP, when they can list everything other classes have that they can use to actually win once in a while.

    Now lets discuss every single ability casters can use to one shot or two shot anyone they target, which doesnt have a limit of being used 20 seconds out of any two minute period of time. I believe we will find quite a few more of these exist than anything that was listed, hmmmm.
    Didn't check this thread for a while, but you got it wrong. I don't ever play my sorc in pvp... (and TR'ed him to arti too now). I'm all for decreasng the damage output of casters to be more in line with player hp.

  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Didn't check this thread for a while, but you got it wrong. I don't ever play my sorc in pvp... (and TR'ed him to arti too now). I'm all for decreasng the damage output of casters to be more in line with player hp.
    Nope, sorry, I nailed it dead on. Every single one of those changes would affect PVE. Most of the time when people ask for changes, they ask to change the stuff than be used to squish them easily, so that when that stuff is out of the game they are now unimpeded in their mission to crush others just as easily. I see meteorswarm listed as "does too much damage". There are quite a few other spells which do more damage than meteorsworm. Of course, bards and rangers should have their strongest abilities nerfed. How else are casters going to be guaranteed 100% victory?

    If PVP is ever going to succeed in DDO the first thing they would have to do is make it so that any one of the classes has a reasonable chance to win in 1v1, then incentivize team scenario PVP so that everyone regardless of chosen class feels they can contribute. The game is so far away from this now that they would have to do something completely different than the normal game to make it work.

    The example I am thinking of is alterac valley in WOW. When this came out, it was the height of PVP in MMOs. 40 -vs- 40 on one battlefield, with objectives for each team (other than killing eachother of course). All classes have their strengths and weaknesses but all can contribute. This was YEARS ago.

    DDO is so far behind this already 6 year old curve that revamping the game to include something like this as a business decision would have to be severly justified. As it stands if they created a teams scenario like this (cap the flag already exists), people will jump in with their arcane and divine casters. Youll get the occasional bard who will song of capering someone from afar, and occasional ranger AA who hunts for 20s, but pure melee and most of the hybrid melee would be schooled outright by caster classes.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-30-2011 at 12:35 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #59
    Community Member Ssdprref's Avatar
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    Simplest solution to the problem on PvP.

    Make all the casters unable to cast spells while running or jumping =D, You'll see more less of them in Pvp.

    With the exception of TR MM everything is fine right now.

    I support the idea of having 6 different rooms with variety of levels and rules.
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  20. #60
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Tavern PVP is for bullies. That's all there is to it. People who want to stomp other players cause it makes them feel uberz. Whining about ways to be a bigger bully and nerf the bullies who stomp you don't really contribute to the game.

    I don't support PVP but I would support TVT. Teams are what DDO is all about. I've played the PVP arenas with friends/family and it is a blast, especially with the ones that have an objective like Capture the Flag.

    I'd love to see some challenges where instead of competing against the clock or monsters, you competed against other teams. However they would have to be for fun/bragging rights only- any XP or gear would be subject to exploits.

    "You go let us beat you, then you can beat us and we'll all get our rewards..."

    But a contained leaderboard that displayed the top winning teams would be ok; it might even reset daily/weekly.
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