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  1. #21
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    I like this build a lot. Pretty sure this -- or something like it, altered for maximum effectiveness at level 18 -- is how I'm going to get my Paladin life in.

    If I can make one unorthodox suggestion:

    Replace the second Toughness with Cleave. With the U9 changes to Cleave, it no longer slows down attack rates. It seems like it will be great for this build for generating ki and healing when surrounded. Not to mention that the Paladin abilities are most efficient when getting lots of strikes in -- cleave helps with that.
    That is an interesting idea indeed. I haven't messed around with cleave at all since I'd always heard that it was worthless on a monk. I will swap out a toughness and try it out when U9 lands upon us. At the very least it could be a good lvl 3 feat to recommend for the non-TR folks who want to try this build. Thanks for the suggestion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ytteri View Post
    Really interesting build. Have you considered using the epic abishai boots, cloak and helm for the 3 piece set bonus? It'll get you two green slots you could put heavy fort and toughness into to make up for the loss of minos, and with all it gets you, I think it would be worth losing the mabar cloak. It would mean finding a new slot for your greensteel though.

    Edit: Upon reflection, I think the belt slot would be best for your new greensteel since the 3 abishai items come with +7 con and a yellow slot for GFL, so the belt would really only be getting you the set bonus. With the stacking +3 str that comes from abishai, you'd essentially be trading +1 damage for +1 hit.
    That is a nice gear lay-out. Probably better than what I was planning on. Trading 1 damage for 1 hit is probably well worth it since unarmed fighting dps stems so much from bursts and other damage sources if you miss on even a 2, then you're losing a lot more than just +2 damage. I do like the concealment on the cloak of night though, and would sorely miss the survivability that that lends.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Zephyr- View Post
    Edit : just tough of it. How about an Helf 15 pally/4 monk/ 1 bard with rogue dilly ? You get full UMD, sligtly more SA damage than /1 rogue human (IIRC), but you also gain acess to focusing chant (+1 to-hit and skill, stacks with everything), and a small song when you are soloing for more to-hit and damage (stacks with divine favor, but the to-hit part doesn't stack with GH if you scroll it). Wearing a stormsinger cloak (from attack on stormreach chain) would even allow you to regen that song every 5 mins (inspire courage lasts 4 mins even at lvl 1 bard... Woot !).
    The only problem I see with this is that... Since it's an uncommon split, narrow minded people may think you're a noob, and decline you. Oh, and that haste boost... Haven't made my mind yet anyway... /1 bard would probably more for flavor, /1 rogue gives more benefits in raids or any party with a bard, especially with haste boost.
    Another interesting idea! In that scenario I would not worry too much over the loss of haste boost. While it is great for tough fights and for gaining aggro quickly on a boss, the song along would provide more on average to the H-elf build than haste boost. That cloak also gets you +4 resistance bonus to saves, which is quite nice.

    I typically find that narrow-minded folks who deny me from groups are usually not the ones I wanted to run with anyway. I distinctly remember an LFM for Litany of the Dead with some very specific requirements for its members. I didn't make the cut. It made me sad.

    But then I got over my sadness and soloed the quest 4 times before that group had filled. That made me happy! =D

    +1's all around for the good suggestions! Keep them coming!

  2. #22
    Community Member Aeolwind's Avatar
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    Don't forget fascinate. Even with 1 bard level you can get DC's well into the 40's and probably 50's. I pondered splashing 1 bard on the character I LR'd into cleric for that one sole reason.
    Aeolwind (5/12) - 18 Sorc/1 Art | Melisandria - 20 Fighter SD | Anlona - 20 cleric RS

  3. #23
    Community Member Ravoc-DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeolwind View Post
    Don't forget fascinate. Even with 1 bard level you can get DC's well into the 40's and probably 50's. I pondered splashing 1 bard on the character I LR'd into cleric for that one sole reason.
    Can't splash bard with paladin, opposite alignment requirements...

  4. #24
    Community Member Aeolwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Can't splash bard with paladin, opposite alignment requirements...
    Wasn't even looking at the alignment, was going strictly on Zeph's post lol. I rarely make lawful characters =/. Could use the bard dill in that case =P
    Aeolwind (5/12) - 18 Sorc/1 Art | Melisandria - 20 Fighter SD | Anlona - 20 cleric RS

  5. #25
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Can't splash bard with paladin, opposite alignment requirements...
    Hadn't even occurred to me. So much for that idea!

  6. #26
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Can't splash bard with paladin, opposite alignment requirements...
    I knew it was too good looking to be true !

  7. #27
    Community Member SpearKicker's Avatar
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    Really nice thread!

    Yesterday I went thru epic fenss with my fighter/monk and could get Gloves of the Claw and Ravens Sight seal. Think I already have all four itens to build the epic ravens. Have to work now on getting the claw scrol and shards. Anyone selling the scroll on Argonessen?

    Really like the abishai setup of itens. Dont think I would change googles or necklace for a concordand opp though (or even torc, i think). The shintao set gives +2 to hit and damage, and the epic ravens sight (with the epic gem) would give a +4 to hit (does that stacks?). On the other hand, the knost belt set just gives another +2 to damage and GFS (that could be sloted in a yellow slot, as told), so I think it would be better for the gs item. Am I missing aynthing?

    Thanks for everyone. You are really helping this noob in my way to TR!

  8. #28
    Community Member SpearKicker's Avatar
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    Default Bad News

    Just made my Epic Raven's Sight yesterday. Its not working properly. My will save should have been increesed by +4 (+3 epic will save and +1 from the +2 exceptional Wisdom), but it only increased by a +2. I've just reported the bug.

  9. #29
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Haste Boost (1)
    Human adaptability: strength (2)
    Human greater adaptability: charisma (4)
    Human Improved Recovery III (12)
    Human Versatility II (3)
    Way of the Patient Tortoise (1)
    Improved Recovery I (2)
    Extra Lay on Hands III (6)
    Hunter of the Dead II (6)
    Racial Toughness II (3)
    Sneak attack training I (1)
    Devotion IV (10)
    Charisma II (6)
    Wisdom I (2)
    Paladin toughness III (6)
    Divine Might III (6)
    Extra turning II (3)
    Improved turning II (3)
    Maybe it's been mentioned but your dps will be bad and you are missing exalted smite and Divine Sacrifice. The bad dps is part of these builds. It does ok but don't fool yourself into thinking the dps is awesome. I love my 15/3/2 HA build so don't take that as forum hate.

    IMO you should take Void Strike I, Divine Sacrifice II, and as high of Exalted Smite as you can get.
    Last edited by Valindria; 04-28-2011 at 12:54 PM.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    Maybe it's been mentioned but you dps will be bad and you are missing exalted smite and Divine Sacrifice. The bad dps is part of these builds. It does ok but don't fool yourself into thinking the dps is awesome. I love my 15/3/2 HA build so don't take that as forum hate.

    IMO you should take Void Strike I, Divine Sacrifice II, and as high of Exalted Smite as you can get.
    I don't know if you are aware that (and I just signed on and reset my enhancements to verify that this is still true in U9), Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice suppress the offhand attack when fighting unarmed. This means that if your offhand attack does more than the 52 damage that ES adds or the 7d6 damage from DS, then you're losing dps by clicking those buttons, in addition to wasting AP by taking the enhancements. And off-hand attacks do more than either of those, guaranteed.

    You are correct that Void Strike adds damage... precisely 1d4 every 3 seconds under the absolute optimal circumstances. Those circumstances being the times when you aren't charging up a finisher, and when you don't mis-time the strike due to human error. All in all, I feel pretty secure in leaving it out of the enhancement list.

    Finally, though I am sure I will end up regretting it, I feel compelled to ask what gave you the impression that I was fooling myself, or anyone else, with regards to the dps potential of the build? I believe my exact quote is:
    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    It is easy and fast to level, and can dish out sustainable and acceptable dps levels without gear any fancier than some +2 Holy Handwraps of Bleeding (which I used almost exclusively from the moment I could equip them).
    Now if such a grandiose claim as "sustainable and acceptable" is fooling people, then I guess that you would be justified in your post. However, I feel that mine is actually a rather humble assessment of the build's potential damage output. I hit faster than anyone else, and with the full assortment of weapon/ring effects (ideally sneak attack, holy, bleeding, holy burst, icy burst, shocking burst and greater bane for a total of 10d6 + 1d8 + 2d10 + 3) plus divine might III, divine favor and human versatility (total of +12 damage), well, I can lay a pretty good beating.

    Will this build out-gun a pure barb or fighter swinging an Epic Sword of Shadows or dual Epic Chaosblades? Not in the least. Did I ever claim that it would? Nope. Will this build provide good enough damage to make it a worthwhile character to include in a raid? Unless you've got 10 ESoS barbs and 2 healers, then I believe that it is well worth the slot, even before you account for the rather harder to calculate benefits that a light monk provides. Thus, the verdict on my claim of sustainable and acceptable dps: not fooling anyone!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    ...Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice suppress the offhand attack when fighting unarmed.
    this is one reason to take Whirling Steel Strike.

  12. #32
    Community Member GuntherBovine's Avatar
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    I cranked the build into the Character Planner:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Ellania Bovine
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
    (15 Paladin \ 4 Monk \ 1 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 411
    Spell Points: 160 
    BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
    Fortitude: 22
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 15
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    23
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence          8                    10
    Wisdom                8                    11
    Charisma             15                    21
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                     7
    Bluff                 2                     5
    Concentration         3                    26
    Diplomacy             2                     5
    Disable Device        3                     4
    Haggle                2                     5
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                  2                     3
    Intimidate            3                     6
    Jump                  7                    10
    Listen               -1                     0
    Move Silently         2                     3
    Open Lock             6                     7
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair               -1                     0
    Search                3                     4
    Spot                  3                     4
    Swim                  3                     6
    Tumble                3                     4
    Use Magic Device      6                    28
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Intimidate (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
    
    
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    
    
    Level 7 (Monk)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
    
    
    Level 8 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning II
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: CHA
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    My questions:
    1. Why use only 77 skill points?
    2. Why Monk Wisdom? It only increases your Wisdom to 11
    3. Never mind (Was question on Improved Turning)
    4. I am not a big fan of Sneak Attack Training, especially for a solo-build. Who is going to be drawing the aggro?
    5. Why 3rd Monk level at 10? To me, the whole point of the build is to use Healing Ki to constantly refill your HP. When I entered the build into the Character Planner, I changed the order to be R,M,M,M,P,P,M,13xP
    6. If you dump Monk Wisdom and Sneak Attack Training I, you have enough AP's for Charisma III (6), which takes your Charisma up to 22
    Last edited by GuntherBovine; 04-27-2011 at 09:50 PM. Reason: Revised question #3

  13. #33
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    Default Umm... No.

    Definitely No. If you've seen the update for the Solar Pheonix, he didnt take more than 2 monk for reasons.
    Healing Ki-Characters with sufficient levels of monk will only heal less than 50 with max healing amp.
    You'll get more benefits from taking 18 pally and 2 monk than what your doing.

  14. #34
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLarone View Post
    this is one reason to take Whirling Steel Strike.
    And there are plenty of reasons not to. The most pertinent one being that unarmed fighting will do more damage over a longer time than longswords... and it comes at a cost of nothing at all!

    Seriously though, the WSS phoenix builds are totally cool. But this isn't one of them. It is an unarmed human healing amp build, just like the title states. Ya dig?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuntherBovine View Post
    My questions:
    1. Why use only 77 skill points?
    2. Why Monk Wisdom? It only increases your Wisdom to 11
    3. Never mind (Was question on Improved Turning)
    4. I am not a big fan of Sneak Attack Training, especially for a solo-build. Who is going to be drawing the aggro?
    5. Why 3rd Monk level at 10? To me, the whole point of the build is to use Healing Ki to constantly refill your HP. When I entered the build into the Character Planner, I changed the order to be R,M,M,M,P,P,M,13xP
    6. If you dump Monk Wisdom and Sneak Attack Training I, you have enough AP's for Charisma III (6), which takes your Charisma up to 22
    1) I don't know what you mean by this. If you mean enhancements, then I probably forgot something. You can mess with them basically as much as you like so I didn't spend a great deal of time on it.
    2) Most all of my stats are set up to be even with +1 ship buffs, since that's all I have. I leave it to the user to figure out these enhancements to make their stats work out.
    3) OK
    4) On a pure solo build, go ahead and leave it out. That choice is yours. I took it because I also like to join groups and raids on occasion, and then it is +3 damage for 1 AP. That's a pretty good deal.
    5) You have to take 4 paladin levels somewhere out of your first 6 so that you can take a metamagic feat (extend in this case) at level 6. The build you put together takes a toughness there, thus losing a metamagic, so I can't recommend going three monk that early.

    After making that decision, I then figured that I wanted to get Hunter of the Dead 2 as soon as possible since the negative energy immunity makes areas like the Orchard feel like a walk in the park. A really creepy park filled with undead. Anyway, it would be totally viable to take the monk levels at 7, 8, 9 if you really want. Basically comes down to personal preference.
    6) once again, I have this set up so that a +1 ship buff will even the stat out because that is all I have available. If you want to go a different route, then go for it!



    Quote Originally Posted by EpiKagEMO View Post
    Definitely No. If you've seen the update for the Solar Pheonix, he didnt take more than 2 monk for reasons.
    Healing Ki-Characters with sufficient levels of monk will only heal less than 50 with max healing amp.
    You'll get more benefits from taking 18 pally and 2 monk than what your doing.
    I have indeed seen the update for Solar Phoenix, I even linked it in the first line of my post. And yet I decided to post the build this way. I understand perfectly well his reasons for changing the build. Taking 18 pally and fighting with longswords is not the type of character I want to play, so I posted this for people that want to use unarmed fighting, which has many benefits over longswords. Furthermore, although I will miss the 150+ heals from healing ki, there are abundant alternatives for healing this build, as I laid out in the first post. Finally, I would gain almost nothing out of taking 6 more levels of pally, and would in fact lose quite a bit. I don't have the charisma for DMIV without a +4 tome, so all that's left is the extra 10% healing amp, which is nice but unnecessary, and the chance to kill undead outright, which is mostly worthless by the time you're level 18. I'd be useing the Mabar wraps for undead slaying anyway.
    Last edited by whomhead; 04-27-2011 at 11:01 PM.

  15. #35
    Community Member SpearKicker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    And there are plenty of reasons not to. The most pertinent one being that unarmed fighting will do more damage over a longer time than longswords... and it comes at a cost of nothing at all!

    Seriously though, the WSS phoenix builds are totally cool. But this isn't one of them. It is an unarmed human healing amp build, just like the title states. Ya dig?


    1) I don't know what you mean by this. If you mean enhancements, then I probably forgot something. You can mess with them basically as much as you like so I didn't spend a great deal of time on it.
    2) Most all of my stats are set up to be even with +1 ship buffs, since that's all I have. I leave it to the user to figure out these enhancements to make their stats work out.
    3) OK
    4) On a pure solo build, go ahead and leave it out. That choice is yours. I took it because I also like to join groups and raids on occasion, and then it is +3 damage for 1 AP. That's a pretty good deal.
    5) You have to take 4 paladin levels somewhere out of your first 6 so that you can take a metamagic feat (extend in this case) at level 6. The build you put together takes a toughness there, thus losing a metamagic, so I can't recommend going three monk that early.

    After making that decision, I then figured that I wanted to get Hunter of the Dead 2 as soon as possible since the negative energy immunity makes areas like the Orchard feel like a walk in the park. A really creepy park filled with undead. Anyway, it would be totally viable to take the monk levels at 7, 8, 9 if you really want. Basically comes down to personal preference.
    6) once again, I have this set up so that a +1 ship buff will even the stat out because that is all I have available. If you want to go a different route, then go for it!





    I have indeed seen the update for Solar Phoenix, I even linked it in the first line of my post. And yet I decided to post the build this way. I understand perfectly well his reasons for changing the build. Taking 18 pally and fighting with longswords is not the type of character I want to play, so I posted this for people that want to use unarmed fighting, which has many benefits over longswords. Furthermore, although I will miss the 150+ heals from healing ki, there are abundant alternatives for healing this build, as I laid out in the first post. Finally, I would gain almost nothing out of taking 6 more levels of pally, and would in fact lose quite a bit. I don't have the charisma for DMIV without a +4 tome, so all that's left is the extra 10% healing amp, which is nice but unnecessary, and the chance to kill undead outright, which is mostly worthless by the time you're level 18. I'd be useing the Mabar wraps for undead slaying anyway.
    And we also have to remember that this is a fist fighting build. Loosing monk levels will push your fist damage down. In the case o Solar, thats not a problem, so he had less to loose doing this.

  16. #36
    Community Member SpearKicker's Avatar
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    Default Tell us about your experience

    So whomhead,

    Are you at wich level with this build? Can you tell us what yours experience looks like? How does it compares to other characters on groups and stuff like that. Just for us to have a feel of how it works. I am about 4 ToDs of TR (decided to TR after a holy burst ring craft - will craft shoking burst next life), so I just want to hear from your experience with this guy to see what to expect.

  17. #37
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    I don't know if you are aware that (and I just signed on and reset my enhancements to verify that this is still true in U9), Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice suppress the offhand attack when fighting unarmed. This means that if your offhand attack does more than the 52 damage that ES adds or the 7d6 damage from DS, then you're losing dps by clicking those buttons, in addition to wasting AP by taking the enhancements. And off-hand attacks do more than either of those, guaranteed.
    I am aware. Does your offhand consistently do that much? Maybe it does. Also it turns your fists into 19-20x3 vs evil.


    You are correct that Void Strike adds damage... precisely 1d4 every 3 seconds under the absolute optimal circumstances. Those circumstances being the times when you aren't charging up a finisher, and when you don't mis-time the strike due to human error. All in all, I feel pretty secure in leaving it out of the enhancement list.
    What finisher? The healing ki finisher is no more. Now you have a contradiction. If hitting DS and ES lowers dps then how would charging a finisher not do the same? When you take the 3 seconds to execute the finisher (ok not that long but it's what it feels like) are you not losing more dps then a DS?

    In shroud when everyone is standing there beating the boss, what do you do with your Ki? On my 15/3/2 I spam DS, Void, Lighting, (and smites). I am using WSS though. I just don't see the point of standing there with a full ki bar and not adding everything to damage.

    Finally, though I am sure I will end up regretting it, I feel compelled to ask what gave you the impression that I was fooling myself, or anyone else, with regards to the dps potential of the build? I believe my exact quote is:

    Now if such a grandiose claim as "sustainable and acceptable" is fooling people, then I guess that you would be justified in your post. However, I feel that mine is actually a rather humble assessment of the build's potential damage output. I hit faster than anyone else, and with the full assortment of weapon/ring effects (ideally sneak attack, holy, bleeding, holy burst, icy burst, shocking burst and greater bane for a total of 10d6 + 1d8 + 2d10 + 3) plus divine might III, divine favor and human versatility (total of +12 damage), well, I can lay a pretty good beating.

    Will this build out-gun a pure barb or fighter swinging an Epic Sword of Shadows or dual Epic Chaosblades? Not in the least. Did I ever claim that it would? Nope. Will this build provide good enough damage to make it a worthwhile character to include in a raid? Unless you've got 10 ESoS barbs and 2 healers, then I believe that it is well worth the slot, even before you account for the rather harder to calculate benefits that a light monk provides. Thus, the verdict on my claim of sustainable and acceptable dps: not fooling anyone!
    It wasn't you specifically. Just all these healing amp builds seem to gloss over the fact that dps is low when leveling. It takes a lot of gear to get to where you want. I enjoyed leveling my healing amp build but I was constantly feeling like the dps was not there. A TR may not have the same issues if you have the gear you want. Just offering what it felt like with Valtieri.

    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead
    If you have any critiques or things I’ve overlooked, please let me know.
    Just offering what I noticed. It's hard to tell tone, but it seems like you have an aggressive stance with your responses. Some people can not handle critique. Not saying you are one of them but just making sure you are defending your choices and not angry about it. Play whatever makes you happy. Post whatever builds you want and I'll tell you what I think.

  18. #38
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    Just offering what I noticed. It's hard to tell tone, but it seems like you have an aggressive stance with your responses. Some people can not handle critique. Not saying you are one of them but just making sure you are defending your choices and not angry about it. Play whatever makes you happy. Post whatever builds you want and I'll tell you what I think.
    I guess it really is hard to tell tone. I read some of the other posts as aggressive, including yours, and whomhead's as very reasonable and remarkably polite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    What finisher? The healing ki finisher is no more.
    The healing ki finisher is not as useful as it used to be, but it's still worthwhile for either pure monks or for splashed monks with very high healing amp, like this build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    Now you have a contradiction. If hitting DS and ES lowers dps then how would charging a finisher not do the same?
    Charging a finisher doesn't interrupt the attack sequence at all, and has no reduction in DPS. Releasing the finisher can slow things down a lot, and may not be worth it, depending on the finisher. But finishers have other useful effects that may make it worth it.

    DS and ES, in contrast, have no purpose except to increase DPS. On an unarmed build, they often have the opposite effect and therefore shouldn't be used.

    While leveling, it's possible that DS at least might add enough damage to make up for the lack of offhand attacks. I can't really see ES ever doing so by itself. But once an unarmed fighter has his burst rings, if he's not doing more than 52 or 7d6 damage per hand, there is something terribly wrong.

    As tight as APs are on this build, I think Whomhead is exactly right not to invest in them (at least at endgame).
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 04-28-2011 at 11:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  19. #39
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    I am aware. Does your offhand consistently do that much? Maybe it does. Also it turns your fists into 19-20x3 vs evil.
    Unarmed gets full strength bonus to offhand attacks in addition to any weapon/ring effects, making it exactly the same as the regular attack. So it hits for ~100 damage every time, so yes, it hits for more than an exalted smite. Extra crit damage is nice, but without auto-crit it strikes me as to variable to be worth the investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    What finisher? The healing ki finisher is no more. Now you have a contradiction. If hitting DS and ES lowers dps then how would charging a finisher not do the same? When you take the 3 seconds to execute the finisher (ok not that long but it's what it feels like) are you not losing more dps then a DS?

    In shroud when everyone is standing there beating the boss, what do you do with your Ki? On my 15/3/2 I spam DS, Void, Lighting, (and smites). I am using WSS though. I just don't see the point of standing there with a full ki bar and not adding everything to damage.
    I use all of the finishers, depending on the occasion. Walk of the Sun and Aligning the Heavens are the main ones, but the others have their uses as well.

    I do spam ki strikes while beating bosses, so you are correct that it would be more dps. At 1 AP it is easy enough to fit into the enhancements so I should have included it in the original post, and will do so.

    The comparison to dps lost to DS is an invalid one. Yes you do lose dps by charging a finisher, but that is presumably done to get some benefit. On this build, DS and ES are a loss all around. You lose dps, action points, and in the case of DS, some spell and hit points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    It wasn't you specifically. Just all these healing amp builds seem to gloss over the fact that dps is low when leveling. It takes a lot of gear to get to where you want. I enjoyed leveling my healing amp build but I was constantly feeling like the dps was not there. A TR may not have the same issues if you have the gear you want. Just offering what it felt like with Valtieri.
    I actually found the exact opposite of what you're describing. This build was incredibly easy to level. I leveled mostly solo, so dungeon scaling worked heavily in my favor. It is only at the very high end of raiding of epics that the gear becomes important.

    You are correct that it takes a lot of gear to get the top-end dps. But that is true for any melee character. I don't have all of that gear yet, but I still am quite comfortable stating that this build will out-dps the longsword-using phoenix types, and can be competitive with most similarly-geared melee characters. Maybe you should try it out if you are unsatisfied with your longsword build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    Just offering what I noticed. It's hard to tell tone, but it seems like you have an aggressive stance with your responses. Some people can not handle critique. Not saying you are one of them but just making sure you are defending your choices and not angry about it. Play whatever makes you happy. Post whatever builds you want and I'll tell you what I think.
    I can handle constructive criticism just fine. Unqualified, blanket statements like "you dps is bad" are not constructive. As you say, it is hard to tell tone, but I read a fair bit of aggression in your post, so I responded in kind. Had you offered some valid advice (aside from void strike, that is an increase in dps and I will include it in the build) to go along with your unqualified and rather biased assessment of the build, then I would have responded in kind. Do you really expect to accuse me of trying to fool people in some way, and expect to be showered with praise? I apologize if I read too much into your post, but it got me a bit riled.

  20. #40
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Sorry, there are a like a dozen "phoenix" builds so my comments about DPS must not be accurate. Seems like every week someone posts one that is pretty much the same. I glanced yours and saw what I thought would help the dps. I am interested in screen shots of your damage though. I would also be interested in your time vs Shades DPS challenges.

    When I said charging I mean executing. The thing where he puts his hands together and the buff goes off. It takes way to long to use in combat, but again you probably are not using in combat. I don't always type things correctly as to what I am trying to get across (which probably why I think I am having a calm discussion and it might seem like we are fighting).

    My experience is not valid for this since I was not a TR and used swords and kamas. Leveling early was easy. Mid levels were still ok. I gained some power around 12-15. It was after that was the hardest. He's getting there but also doesn't have the focus that my bards get. I still have a lot of fun and I have full ranks in intimidate so in some cases I can play the role of healing amp intim tank. With the changes we'll see if I can do enough threat to keep it going.

    With the changes to Stunning Fist, and since you are going to be using handwraps full time would that fit in better as a feat? Stunning fist uses character level now (instead of monk) in the DC calculation. Potentially dropping maxmize for it.

    Also how much do you hate the 1 min duration of DM? Drives me nuts I have to hit it all the time.

    Also If you use Garments of Equilibrium you can't use DT armor for 10/20. You could get 20% in other spots but the 10 is stuck to DT (or finger necklace but it works differently). Might not matter, but just saying for full HA, you drop a monk die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtick
    The healing ki finisher is not as useful as it used to be, but it's still worthwhile for either pure monks or for splashed monks with very high healing amp, like this build.
    I don't see it as being worth it with really low levels of monks. This case specifically will be 3d4 + all stuff. So if you have the ki and nothing to do with it maybe us it, but it doesn't have the play it once did.
    Last edited by Valindria; 04-28-2011 at 01:34 PM.

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