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  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post


    Hello all, Sockpuppet here again.

    I attempted to join a random group of adventurers this last weekend to take on a threat to Meridia involving a nasty pit fiend. I've fought pit fiends before and feel very comfortable killing them--even one-on-one if necessary.

    The group was looking for dps classes--their posting asking for everything but healers and casters (which they already had). They had one rogue in their group already. I put in an application. After waiting a few minutes, I was denied entry. They re-posted their request with rogue removed--asking for all of the other dps classes except rogue.

    I had a little chuckle about this. Curiosity got the best of me and I waited around to see who they added. They ended up recruiting a fighter with 380 hps and 28 STR.

    I am all about group leaders having a complete say in who they want to add and have no hard feelings about being left out. I was able to join another group and promptly dispatched our pit fiend foe.

    That being said, I do want to continue to get the word out that rogues can be your best dps friends. Assuming that they went with the fighter over a rogue because they were looking for higher dps and/or survivability--their goal was not served in this particular instance.

    It's time for us rogues to get the word out there.

    Rogue Power!
    I was in a shroud this weekend where the DPS was 5 rogues, 3 wizards, a bard, and a sorc. The boss went down so fast, the FvS equipped her greatsword and jumped into the melee about a third of the way through, seeing we wouldnt need extra healing and there would be no round two anyhow, heh.

    I am not sure why the rogue hate still exists to the degree that it does, but it certainly still does.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #22
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    So with Bluff and Diplomacy getting an upgrade in update 9 any plans to add either of these skills to your build so you can get more sneak attacks?

  3. #23
    Community Member KingOfCheese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kielbasa View Post
    So with Bluff and Diplomacy getting an upgrade in update 9 any plans to add either of these skills to your build so you can get more sneak attacks?
    Yes. I am considering both--but will experiment 1st before committing to them. I used to carry max diplo - but ended up never using it, so I dropped it. We'll see where I am on this next month.
    INFERUS SUS Sorcs (Socky, Sockie, Socklin), Rogues (Sockpuppet, Sockum), Clerics (Sockington, Sockase), FVS (Sockle), Intim (Tubesocks), Bards (Sockdolenger, Sockish), Rangers (Sockin, Sockel), Wizzy (Sockut), Kensai (Sockt), Monk (Sockfist), Arty (Sockficer, Sockcraft)

  4. #24
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post
    The gear I have acquired provides me with a lot of survivability and melee capability.

    In sum, without gear exchanges, it provides:

    +12 STR
    +13 CON
    +7 CHA
    +6 DEX
    +6 WIS

    30 point perma resists in fire, cold, acid, and electricity

    disintegration guard
    corrosive salt guard
    poison guard
    earthgrab guard

    +6 seeker
    +5 resists
    greater false life
    extra damage over time
    +5 sneak attack damage
    -20% hate
    true seeing
    ghost touch

    poison immunity
    heavy fortification
    disease immunity
    +2 luck
    toughness



    The specific items are:

    head: epic Helm of Frost with poison immunity
    neck: triple earth shroud crafted necklace with +45 hps
    trinket: bloodstone
    cloak: epic Envenomed Cloak with heavy fort
    belt: Colethenis's belt (ravager set)
    ring 1: Ravager ring with +2 exceptional STR
    ring 2: Oremi ring with +2 exceptional CON
    gloves: epic Charged Gauntles with disease immunity
    boots: epic Boots of Corrosion with +6 dex and luck (with swap to Madstone boots for clicky and procs)
    bracers: epic Scorched Bracers with toughness
    goggles: tharnes googles
    armor: DT armor with GFL, corrosive salt guard, and Tharnes
    Planning out an "ideal" endgame gear setup for my rogue, I came up with a very similar list as Sockpuppet's. I have not seen the full Abishai set on any rogue builds, but there seemed to be a lot of potential there. They really offer a lot overall. I also ended up with my GS HP item in the neck/belt slot, but wasn't sure about giving up a ToD set. The survival and dps potential of this setup both seem top notch. I'm glad to see someone using and endorsing it.

  5. #25
    Community Member Gabrion's Avatar
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    Great write-up for a great build!

    I've just come back to the game and am considering playing a rogue for the first time. As an experience rogue player maybe you can answer some questions for me. With sneak attacks being important for DPS, do you have to put a lot of energy into making sure attacks are sneaks? What have you found to be the most effective way of doing this?

    I remember when I last played (early mod6), the crafting formula for radiance had just been discovered and IIRC people were throwing around the idea that the blinding crits from radiance would be a viable method of generating Sneak Attacks, but I never stuck around to see any of those builds. Did/do they work?

    I'm drawn to the idea of a thief-acrobat quarterstaff sneak attacker...is that sort of build viable for a good dpser? Thanks for any help!

  6. #26
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post


    Hello all, Sockpuppet here again.

    I attempted to join a random group of adventurers this last weekend to take on a threat to Meridia involving a nasty pit fiend. I've fought pit fiends before and feel very comfortable killing them--even one-on-one if necessary.

    The group was looking for dps classes--their posting asking for everything but healers and casters (which they already had). They had one rogue in their group already. I put in an application. After waiting a few minutes, I was denied entry. They re-posted their request with rogue removed--asking for all of the other dps classes except rogue.

    I had a little chuckle about this. Curiosity got the best of me and I waited around to see who they added. They ended up recruiting a fighter with 380 hps and 28 STR.

    I am all about group leaders having a complete say in who they want to add and have no hard feelings about being left out. I was able to join another group and promptly dispatched our pit fiend foe.

    That being said, I do want to continue to get the word out that rogues can be your best dps friends. Assuming that they went with the fighter over a rogue because they were looking for higher dps and/or survivability--their goal was not served in this particular instance.

    It's time for us rogues to get the word out there.

    Rogue Power!
    hehe, I guess some just fear to get one of those other lvl 20 Rogue with 160 HP and 0% Fort

    But really fine build, gratz for your gear accomplishments and very nicely written!!!
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  7. #27
    Community Member KingOfCheese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrion View Post
    Great write-up for a great build!

    I've just come back to the game and am considering playing a rogue for the first time. As an experience rogue player maybe you can answer some questions for me. With sneak attacks being important for DPS, do you have to put a lot of energy into making sure attacks are sneaks? What have you found to be the most effective way of doing this?

    I remember when I last played (early mod6), the crafting formula for radiance had just been discovered and IIRC people were throwing around the idea that the blinding crits from radiance would be a viable method of generating Sneak Attacks, but I never stuck around to see any of those builds. Did/do they work?

    I'm drawn to the idea of a thief-acrobat quarterstaff sneak attacker...is that sort of build viable for a good dpser? Thanks for any help!


    We rogues are the tactical melees. Ensuring sneak attacks involves a few different strategies. For boss fights, which is probably where the sneak attacks are most valuable, I judge my companions' strengths. If there is a reasonably good melee in the group, I'll let them take the first few hits and then engage right away. By using hate-reduction gear (Tharnes set) and enhancements, I won't pull the boss aggression, even though I may be doing quite a bit more damage than my companion.

    For lesser enemies, I'll use a few strategies. Most of them can be easily overpowered with or without sneak attacks. However, if they have a lot of hit points (like giants and epic enemies), I use radiance to blind them--it happens very quickly and is extremely effective. All hits on the blinded opponent receive backstabs. If I am too lazy to swap to my radiance weapons, I'll engage opponents that have their attention on someone else. They tend to be dead well before their aggression turns to me.

    I've never learned the acrobatic arts myself--but have met many a fine rogue that has. Well trained acrobats can do tremendous damage. Not as much as a well trained assassin--but unquestionably respectable by any measure.
    INFERUS SUS Sorcs (Socky, Sockie, Socklin), Rogues (Sockpuppet, Sockum), Clerics (Sockington, Sockase), FVS (Sockle), Intim (Tubesocks), Bards (Sockdolenger, Sockish), Rangers (Sockin, Sockel), Wizzy (Sockut), Kensai (Sockt), Monk (Sockfist), Arty (Sockficer, Sockcraft)

  8. #28
    Community Member DragonTroy's Avatar
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    do you just not bother with OTWF and take the -(4?) to-hit, or did you forget to put that in/me read right past it?

  9. #29
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    whatta gimp. you need more int and cha. con is a dumpstat for rogues. why not roll a mechanic? they rock!

    and besides that Inferus Sus is a horde of weaklings. I wonder why the Zurgmeister allows such things to continue...




    anyway

    i'm still a tr away from my rogue. after we get a bit more accustomed with our newborn i'll be working on that again.

    you thought about a pair of vacuum II's for epics?
    Thelanis - Inferus Sus
    Keeper Refugee - Exclusively playing Warforged
    Nursing IsFutile (FvS) - Unorthodox Behaviour (Kensai) - Bigbofo (Warchanter) - Nukelear Blast (Sorc) - Jurugu Fleshbane (currently TRing) - Reviving IsCheaper (Radiant Blaster)

  10. #30
    Community Member jurgandal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonTroy View Post
    do you just not bother with OTWF and take the -(4?) to-hit, or did you forget to put that in/me read right past it?
    There's no room for OTWF. His a rouge and flanking is his game. He gets +to-hit while flacking, well everybody does. I'm pretty sure he took the -4 to-hit which doesn't even matter. He master the art of inflicting massive damage while flanking without generating hate.
    Doesn't matter how uber your toon is, it's the people you roll with that makes this game interesting.
    www.inferussus.com

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I am not sure why the rogue hate still exists to the degree that it does, but it certainly still does.
    I don't mind this kind of behaviour among some party leaders. It's in fact a very effective moron-filter. Any idiot that excludes me for a vastly inferior DPS character, like what happened to KingOfCheese, goes on my Squelch list. This makes the game more enjoyable for both them and me.
    Various hedge-wizards and halfwits, please see MyDDO for all your squelching needs
    Lyrandar 2006 - Devourer 2007 - Thelanis 2009 - Ghallanda 2010

  12. #32
    Community Member KingOfCheese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonTroy View Post
    do you just not bother with OTWF and take the -(4?) to-hit, or did you forget to put that in/me read right past it?


    Confirmed. No OTWF. To-hit isn't a problem. When I am sneak attacking, my to-hit is sufficiently high that I don't miss except on a 1. When I have agro, most enemies are also auto-hits unless they have a high AC. High AC opponents are handled one of two ways (or both). For high AC blindable trash, I blind them with radiance--then can hit freely. For non-blindable high AC trash (red named sub-bosses), I improved destruct/destruct, then proceed with the beat down. The need for the latter almost never occurs--and typically only when I'm soloing in epic quests.
    INFERUS SUS Sorcs (Socky, Sockie, Socklin), Rogues (Sockpuppet, Sockum), Clerics (Sockington, Sockase), FVS (Sockle), Intim (Tubesocks), Bards (Sockdolenger, Sockish), Rangers (Sockin, Sockel), Wizzy (Sockut), Kensai (Sockt), Monk (Sockfist), Arty (Sockficer, Sockcraft)

  13. #33
    The Hatchery BrightAsh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post


    Hello all, Sockpuppet here again.

    I attempted to join a random group of adventurers this last weekend to take on a threat to Meridia involving a nasty pit fiend. I've fought pit fiends before and feel very comfortable killing them--even one-on-one if necessary.

    The group was looking for dps classes--their posting asking for everything but healers and casters (which they already had). They had one rogue in their group already. I put in an application. After waiting a few minutes, I was denied entry. They re-posted their request with rogue removed--asking for all of the other dps classes except rogue.

    I had a little chuckle about this. Curiosity got the best of me and I waited around to see who they added. They ended up recruiting a fighter with 380 hps and 28 STR.

    I am all about group leaders having a complete say in who they want to add and have no hard feelings about being left out. I was able to join another group and promptly dispatched our pit fiend foe.

    That being said, I do want to continue to get the word out that rogues can be your best dps friends. Assuming that they went with the fighter over a rogue because they were looking for higher dps and/or survivability--their goal was not served in this particular instance.

    It's time for us rogues to get the word out there.

    Rogue Power!
    A round of applause... the times i see a lvl 20 TR rogue denied a group because they want DPS astounds me. It is sad

  14. #34
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post


    Confirmed. No OTWF. To-hit isn't a problem. When I am sneak attacking, my to-hit is sufficiently high that I don't miss except on a 1. When I have agro, most enemies are also auto-hits unless they have a high AC. High AC opponents are handled one of two ways (or both). For high AC blindable trash, I blind them with radiance--then can hit freely. For non-blindable high AC trash (red named sub-bosses), I improved destruct/destruct, then proceed with the beat down. The need for the latter almost never occurs--and typically only when I'm soloing in epic quests.
    Could you post a breakdown on your to-hit?

  15. #35
    Community Member KingOfCheese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Could you post a breakdown on your to-hit?
    Ugh. I'll have to work on that--it's not something I can do off the top of my head with great accuracy. In watching my dice, I typically see +60s when attacking when raid buffed. I'll take a shot at it here--this might not be right.

    Basic factors:

    We'll ignore swing cycles for simplicity and focus on 1st hit (bab gets +20 and +25 on 3rd and 4th animation from stationary attack instead of +15).

    +15 (BAB) lvl 20 pure rogue
    +15-19 40-48 STR (30-34)
    -6/-10 oversized weapon in the off-hand (24-28/20-24)
    +2/+6 twf feat (26-30)
    +2 flanking bonus (28-32)
    +5 weapon (31-35)
    +4 greater heroism (35-39)
    +2 luck (37-41)
    +1 halfling size modifier (38-42)
    +4 halfling cunning when flanking (42-46)

    +7 bard song (49-53)
    +5 madstone BAB effect (54-58)

    -5 power attack (49-53)

    I'm probably missing some things here--but that looks about right in terms of what I see on the dice for non-sneak attacks. Add an effective +12 for debuffs where needed--gives an effective to hit of 66-70 for non-sneaks on 1st hit (add +5/+10 for later attacks in the chain) if desired (no power attack).

    Sneak attacks get a boost: +4 for sneak attack accuracy enhancement. Maybe others?

    Additional buffs add as well, but the above is what I typically see in raid mode.
    Last edited by KingOfCheese; 04-07-2011 at 02:26 PM.
    INFERUS SUS Sorcs (Socky, Sockie, Socklin), Rogues (Sockpuppet, Sockum), Clerics (Sockington, Sockase), FVS (Sockle), Intim (Tubesocks), Bards (Sockdolenger, Sockish), Rangers (Sockin, Sockel), Wizzy (Sockut), Kensai (Sockt), Monk (Sockfist), Arty (Sockficer, Sockcraft)

  16. #36
    Community Member KingOfCheese's Avatar
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    For those who aren't fond of rogues being in Shroud as a dps class: a few adventurers got together and did a 29 min, 5-man Shroud tonight where the dps was mostly rogue-tastic. We took one barb along to keep us fully in backstabs. Cursesed is another 5-piece epic abashi set, 40+ str, 500+ hp, litII rogue ("The Black Ball of Death").

    INFERUS SUS Sorcs (Socky, Sockie, Socklin), Rogues (Sockpuppet, Sockum), Clerics (Sockington, Sockase), FVS (Sockle), Intim (Tubesocks), Bards (Sockdolenger, Sockish), Rangers (Sockin, Sockel), Wizzy (Sockut), Kensai (Sockt), Monk (Sockfist), Arty (Sockficer, Sockcraft)

  17. #37
    Founder Nyvn's Avatar
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    Unfortunately rogues of your caliber are the exception rather than the rule.

  18. #38
    Community Member .Revenga.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post

    Sneak attacks get a boost: +4 for sneak attack accuracy enhancement. Maybe others?
    Tharne's will give you another +5 for sneak attacks.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfCheese View Post

    For those who aren't fond of rogues being in Shroud as a dps class: a few adventurers got together and did a 29 min, 5-man Shroud tonight where the dps was mostly rogue-tastic. We took one barb along to keep us fully in backstabs.
    Oooooh you have a real live pet barbarian. Can it do tricks? Roar, do that cute barbarian "DPS" and look menacing to take aggro? Our thieves' guild has hardwood floors so we are not allowed to keep them. *Jealous*
    Then again, I know how hard it is to get (and keep) them housebroken...
    Various hedge-wizards and halfwits, please see MyDDO for all your squelching needs
    Lyrandar 2006 - Devourer 2007 - Thelanis 2009 - Ghallanda 2010

  20. #40
    Community Member stoolcannon's Avatar
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    That was pretty awesome.
    Captain's Crew: (TR) Dingalbarian - Horc Barb20 - THF, Dingaladin - Human 18/2 Paladin/Monk - TWF, Lamepolicy - Squishy Drow - Wiz20 Archmage

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