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  1. #1
    Developer Torc's Avatar
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    Default Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

    Hey folks! As you’ve probably have already heard we have a major spell pass coming down the pipe. The full details will be released soon but we figured we’d cover some general cases and some the reasoning for the changes ahead of the Lamannia preview. Today we’ll look at the changes coming to spell cost ratios, CC spells, death effects, and spell points… here we go!

    SPELL COST TO EFFECT RATIOS CHANGES:

    For years now the cost of all spells have been strictly driven by this formula:

    Base Spell cost = 5 SP + (spell level X 5).

    IE: a level 1 spell is 10 sp, while a level 9 spell is 50 sp, and so forth.

    While we got by with this, it didn’t exactly always make for the most diverse spell choices for those people who crunched the numbers to determine what to use. When you looked at the math, folks get very attached to certain spells, namely “wall of fire” for very logical reasons. This is a shame considering the art/dev resources devoted to the creation of so many other spells also floating in the system.

    On another note, it has become a noticeable point that arcane casters are a rather difficult class to get into. The Classic 3.5 D&D concept of starting weak then gain cosmic power. While loyal to our roots we felt that perhaps the current learning curve is a bit too harsh, and we’re looking at making it an easier class role to enter for new players.

    So we’re mixing things up! The spell pass was mostly focused on “damage” spells, but does extends into debuffs and other areas to a degree. We’re changing the costs and what spells do and we’ve changed far too much for me to cover it in just this post but I’m going to give you a list of examples to give you an idea of where we’re going…

    Let’s take some main stream spells with a few “less popular” spells and see what you think….

    Old way:

    1. Burning Hands ( 10 SP)
    2. Melf’s Acid Arrow ( 15 SP)
    3. Scorching Ray ( 15 SP)
    4. Lightning Bolt ( 20 SP)
    5. Wall of fire ( 25 SP)
    6. Delayed blast fire ball (40 sp)
    7. Incendiary cloud: ( 45 SP)
    8. Polar Ray (45 SP)

    Now let’s change that too…

    1. Burning Hands (down to 4 SP – other stats unchanged)

    2. Melf’s Acid Arrow (down to 6 SP – Damage updated to 2d4 + 1 per caster level, duration locked to 12 seconds, now has double range, can no longer be enlarged or extended, ray targeting has been improved)

    3. Scorching Ray (down to 6 SP – now has double range, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)

    4. Lightning Bolt (down to 12 SP – now has double range and 50% change to hit each target twice (back stroke!) – targets get an additional save against the back stroke). Can no longer be enlarged.

    5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save for half when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

    6. Delayed blast fire ball: (25 SP/12 sp for trap version): trap cool down increased to 15 seconds, 10 seconds for sorcerers

    7. Incendiary cloud (Cost remains 45 SP – Now does 2d4 + 1 per caster level in fire damage, no save. Duration locked to 30 seconds. Blind effect (previously no save) now has a reflex save. Can no longer be extended)


    8. Polar Ray (Cost down to 15 SP, range doubled, can no longer be enlarged, ray targeting has been improved.)



    So there is a lot going on here, and this is only a fraction of the changes going in to the spell pass. Essentially the cost of spells are being weighted now much more on their performance, method of engagement and the number of targets they effect rather than the old level-based formula.


    • Low level spells that cap early (like burning hands) got discounted greatly.

    • Drop and kite AOE dots such as wall of fire are now being treated as a more expensive/powerful attack form as we feel they really should be compared to other damage spells.

    • Instant AOE spells got discounted some, to make them more appealing compared to waiting on kiting monsters through aoe dots.

    • Single target damage and bolts are getting much cheaper, single target dots are getting cheaper and getting their effectiveness boosted.

    • “Trap” type spells got really cheap to hopefully make them with consideration given the prep time they take, but had their cool downs increased to make them not a strict replacement for other in combat AOEs.

    WHAT ABOUT CC?

    Yeah okie, we mucked around with CC a little, and it goes into debuffs some… Here are a few high lights.

    • Largely CC costs remained the same

    • HD/HP caps we’re removed from most effects (yeah, I guess I should talk about death effects now, but oh, sleep works now!)

    • Many debuffs had their cost reduced, and some had carrier debuffs added to them that temporarily reduced will saves regardless if the target saved against the original debuff.

    Examples:

    Crushing Depair: Cost reduced to 20 SP, now applies a weakn will effect for 15 seconds regardless of saving throw from original effect (will -5).

    Touch of Idocy: Cost reduced to 5 SP, Now also weaks foes will save for -5 for 15 seconds regardless of save.

    The notion is saving many of our under used debuffs and allow casters to punch harder targets/hit more reliably and get longer effect out of effects with quick re-occurring saves. That’s is if their willing to use a spell slot, and the spell points.


    Full details to come, moving on for now…

    DEATH EFFECTS:

    Chaaanngggeeee….

    • Costs remained the same.

    • We’re pulling the death wards off epic and many pieces of content that had death proof monsters. There have been adjustments to “vorpal” weapons and the like that made us more comfortable with this change. Eladrin posted on these elsewhere if you’re looking for the sneak preview of that…

    • Death spells had their cool downs increased, just a little on single target spells, a bit on AOEs. Single target spells are typically on a 8 second cool down, 6 seconds for sorcerers while AOE death effects are typically 30/25 respectively.

    • Death spell on save damage was increased, so a blue hexagon won’t be a total waste of spell points, yet there will be more agro. We realize this and currently approve. Attempting to death a monster is a hate-able offense.

    • There are some old death spells that got a new look and now their back in town:

    Circle of Death: Now effects all targets regardless of Hit dice; Has been updated as follows:

    Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitute save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who success against the fortitute save will still lose 1d4 energy levels.

    Power word: Kill!

    Upper hit point cap removed except in PVP. Kills, no save, but spell resistance applies.
    240 second cool down for wizards, 210 second cool down for sorcerors


    SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:

    We’ll be introducing a limited form of spell point regen for players who have “magical training” (as in the feat). This is to avoid a true “out of gas” situation for our casters. The concept is that when a caster drops below a certain spell point threshold a spell point regen effect known as “echoes of power” applies itself until the caster reaches that threshold again. The goal is to allow low level players continue to cast level 1 spells at a diminished rate when their “out of gas” while high level players will be able to continue to use their PRE-s with the meta magics they normally require for high level play.

    Currently in testing… these values are examples mind you…

    • Echoes of power will appear when a player drops below 12 SP.
    • Echoes of power will allow the player to regenerate at a rate of 4 SP every 6 seconds.
    • Echoes of power will remove itself once a player reaches 12 SP or greater.



    ETERNAL WANDS:

    Not going to go into details here yet but eternals wands got a pass that increased their recharge regeneration rate and added desirable caster mutations.

    Much more to come. That’s all for now folks, but be sure to participate in the Lamannia preview once it’s available to try out the changes!

    -Torc
    DDO Game Systems
    Last edited by Torc; 03-22-2011 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #2

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    Awesome!
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  3. #3
    Community Member Anneliese's Avatar
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    So if I kite a mob with evasion and decent reflex through a wall of fire, the mob takes 0 damage most of the time?

    ______________

    In general, this sounds very interesting and nice. 2 thumbs up!

    Probably a horror to balance tho.
    Last edited by Anneliese; 03-21-2011 at 04:44 PM.
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  4. #4
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Harsh, firewall got da nerf

    So, it seems that the intention is for arcanes to use alot more single shot spells?

    That means its better to bin the wizard and roll a sorc, surely.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Kralael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:

    We’ll be introducing a limited form of spell point regen for players who have “magical training” (as in the feat). This is to avoid a true “out of gas” situation for our casters. The concept is that when a caster drops below a certain spell point threshold a spell point regen effect known as “echoes of power” applies itself until the caster reaches that threshold again. The goal is to allow low level players continue to cast level 1 spells at a diminished rate when their “out of gas” while high level players will be able to continue to use their PRE-s with the meta magics they normally require for high level play.

    Currently in testing… these values are examples mind you…

    • Echoes of power will appear when a player drops below 12 SP.
    • Echoes of power will allow the player to regenerate at a rate of 4 SP every 6 seconds.
    • Echoes of power will remove itself once a player reaches 12 SP or greater.
    This

  6. #6
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    You realize this means I'm going to have to think when I kite TOD now.

    EDIT: Actually this mean that the Shadows in TOD get a reflex save, so if they pass it I don't actually get their aggro and they'll kill the party.

    Pros- I can kill the party and pretend I'm upset about it
    Cons- The party might expect me to use some other spell, and not die.
    Last edited by Khurse; 03-21-2011 at 04:56 PM.

  7. #7
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    wow. the most used spells get nerfed big time, while little used spells get some boosts. Testing will determine if they become useful.

    Why not just dump all spells and just have generic magic damage based on level. And a generic kill spell. And a generic buff spell.


    Seems to me this change is making spells more similar to each other.

    Hopefully LLama will prove me wrong.

    Last edited by Mellkor; 03-21-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora1979 View Post
    Harsh, firewall got da nerf

    So, it seems that the intention is for arcanes to use alot more single shot spells?

    That means its better to bin the wizard and roll a sorc, surely.
    well, sorta.

    crushing despair (which now looks better when they *make* the save than succeed... unless they changed the on-success effect)
    mass hold
    wall of fire (they'll definitely be staying in the wall, and they'll be taking +50% damage).

    but yeah, it looks like there's gonna be a bit more debuffing going on...

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post

    DEATH EFFECTS:

    Chaaanngggeeee….

    • Costs remained the same.

    • We’re pulling the death wards off epic and many pieces of content that had death proof monsters. There have been adjustments to “vorpal” weapons and the like that made us more comfortable with this change. Eladrin posted on these elsewhere if you’re looking for the sneak preview of that…

    • Death spells had their cool downs increased, just a little on single target spells, a bit on AOEs. Single target spells are typically on a 8 second cool down, 6 seconds for sorcerers while AOE death effects are typically 30/25 respectively.

    • Death spell on save damage was increased, so a blue hexagon won’t be a total waste of spell points, yet there will be more agro. We realize this and currently approve. Attempting to death a monster is a hate-able offense.

    • There are some old death spells that got a new look and now their back in town:

    Circle of Death: Now effects all targets regardless of Hit dice; Has been updated as follows:

    Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitute save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who success against the fortitute save will still lose 1d4 energy levels.
    huh? So if the mob fails both saves, they die. (Like PK) If they Make the Reflex save but fail the Fort Save they take 1d4 neg levels.

    What happens if they fail the reflex but make the fort?

    Power word: Kill!

    Upper hit point cap removed except in PVP. Kills, no save, but spell resistance applies.
    240 second cool down for wizards, 210 second cool down for sorcerors
    4 Minutes? Ouch. not worth a slot.


    SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:
    meh
    ETERNAL WANDS:

    Not going to go into details here yet but eternals wands got a pass that increased their recharge regeneration rate and added desirable caster mutations.

    Much more to come. That’s all for now folks, but be sure to participate in the Lamannia preview once it’s available to try out the changes!

    -Torc
    DDO Game Systems
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  10. #10

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    Wow - big changes. It will be fascinating to see how this plays out on lama. Will also be interesting to see the impact this has on mob casting.

  11. #11
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Wow, lots of changes.

    I must say the ones which made me say wow I don't feel like playing a caster any longer are front and center though with Wall of Fire being nerfed dramatically.

    It's great that instant damage spells are gaining some viability, but they really are only going to be effective with the meta's going and those are what matters for the sp cost of many spells.

    The debuff changes seem entirely insane as they appear to be all about short term debuffs to follow up with a spell.

    And a spell regen effect...wow we just keep on getting closer and closer to WOW don't we?

    Incendary cloud is not as horrible, but still not great due to the unfathomable lack of random loot higher level spell caster boosting effects.

    I give this a 2/10.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:

    We’ll be introducing a limited form of spell point regen for players who have “magical training” (as in the feat). This is to avoid a true “out of gas” situation for our casters. The concept is that when a caster drops below a certain spell point threshold a spell point regen effect known as “echoes of power” applies itself until the caster reaches that threshold again. The goal is to allow low level players continue to cast level 1 spells at a diminished rate when their “out of gas” while high level players will be able to continue to use their PRE-s with the meta magics they normally require for high level play.

    Currently in testing… these values are examples mind you…

    • Echoes of power will appear when a player drops below 12 SP.
    • Echoes of power will allow the player to regenerate at a rate of 4 SP every 6 seconds.
    • Echoes of power will remove itself once a player reaches 12 SP or greater.
    -Torc
    DDO Game Systems
    This is a GREAT idea. However I think the cap is set to low. Make it a combination times your level. So lets set that value at 5 sp. So 5 sp X Level equals at level 12 .....60 sp. Below 60 it starts regening at 4 per 6 seconds. This allows the caster to atleast save a DDdoor or one powerful nuke for an emergency situation.
    Respectfully

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  13. #13
    Community Member BDS's Avatar
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    Not sure about this, guess we will learn and adapt as always.
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  14. #14
    The Hatchery Aurora1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    well, sorta.

    crushing despair (which now looks better when they *make* the save than succeed... unless they changed the on-success effect)
    mass hold
    wall of fire (they'll definitely be staying in the wall, and they'll be taking +50% damage).

    but yeah, it looks like there's gonna be a bit more debuffing going on...
    Well, I get what your saying, but its not good really.

    Mass hold has halfed in value to the progress of the quest, no auto crit makes it virtually pointless when soloing if my dreamspitter wont drain.

    Wall of fire- IF they stay in the wall then yea, great, but they wont. The vast majority of the time I use FW im using it to kite through, not so much on static mobs (though obviously sometimes)

    I realise changes happen and we gota roll with that. I realise some people didnt like the over dependance of firewall, and hold in epics..... but basically, today, ive seen my archmage (as he stands now) become vastly weaker then he was.... thats a pity to me having just spent a couple of months building him, working on gear and stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by xanvar View Post
    I believe my left thumb is Gimp. I think I need to reroll.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anneliese View Post
    So if I kite a mob with evasion and decent reflex through a wall of fire, the mob takes 0 damage most of the time?

    ______________

    In general, this sounds very interesting and nice. 2 thumbs up!

    Probably a horror to balance tho.
    He didn't specific what teh save did.

    A creature without evasion may take no damage.

    I'd hope it's a save for half, but could be a save for none..

    Overall most chances sound decent except one:
    Nerfing extend as a feat.

    I can see why you'd want to reduce the duration of say wall of fire and other persistant AOEs. But directly nerfing extend by having it simply not function is not a fun way to do it. The idea of the spell pass is to make more spells viable and balanced right? That can be done without nerfing feats like this.

    Simply drop wall of fires duration to 15 seconds, and have extend apply. Thus extended = 30 second, as desired. Should not disable the feat simply because the spell is powerful and needs a lower duration.
    Or perhaps something in between would be better: 20 second duration, 40 extended.

  16. #16
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    You realize this means I'm going to have to think when I kite TOD now.

    EDIT: Actually this mean that the Shadows in TOD get a reflex save, so if they pass it I don't actually get their aggro and they'll kill the party.

    Pros- I can kill the party and pretend I'm upset about it
    Cons- The party might expect me to use some other spell, and not die.
    the shadows have evasion or something? or are we assuming that's a save for no damage as opposed to a save for half?

  17. #17
    Community Member vVAnjilaVv's Avatar
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    I figured a WoF nerf would come eventually.......not gonna jump on the whining wagon tho...looks like far to many changes to spellcasting here to judge before trying....

    I'm eager to see how it pans out.....I will say that the change to WoF is going to change caster play dramatically.

    New incoming players will probably benefit from this overall change...talking about everything not just WoF....and experienced casters should easily be able to adjust if they are good players.

    It's a global change to spellcasting in general...so I am not forseeing any real DOOM here....YET!

  18. #18
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Interesting changes. I can't wait for the big list and lam preview.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    You realize this means I'm going to have to think when I kite TOD now.

    EDIT: Actually this mean that the Shadows in TOD get a reflex save, so if they pass it I don't actually get their aggro and they'll kill the party.

    Pros- I can kill the party and pretend I'm upset about it
    Cons- The party might expect me to use some other spell, and not die.
    Use incendiary cloud instead. No save. Acid Fog will probably works too.

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  20. #20
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    I think this now makes wall of fire the most times nerfed thing in the game!

    Did spike growth get changed?

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