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  1. #101
    Community Member jkm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thucydides04 View Post
    I think my statement addresses the problem quite well. every 2 build points nets 20 hps at cap. There is no reason outside of an arcane that any class should be putting more than 6 build points into con. There are ample other sources for hps in this game. People need educated on these sources. Not wearin a +6 con item and GFL with a heavy fort item is completely unnacceptable. Pumpin more points into con does not fix this issue. Minos is easy to get as well. +6 con item = 60 hps, Minos = 20, GFL = 30, that is 110 hps right there.

    I just rolled a haggler on a 2nd acct and leveled it while tring my main. All it did was stand at dungeon entrances and buff the group while we ran the quest. At 20 she had ~230 hps and I took her into an ev6 w/o any of the items I mentioned. She died 1 time. Afterward, I said this unnacceptable and sent her some taps and a con item, now she has ~350 hps. She does not die at all when I run her unless I am toting her stone for convenience. If I gave her a tome and +2 exc con and a shroud hp item she would be standing at 430 hps which is plenty for a non melee.
    no, because you basically skipped the character from level 1 to level 20. level 20 isn't the problem, its level 1-14. the problem is that people who have level 100's of characters forget how bad it was to play your first build and how much margin of error you needed.

    if you were to say, take a cleric to level 9 and then advertise for a new player run of the pit elite. how many raise dead scrolls do you think you'd use whne the majority fo the people in the party have 70 hit points. now think about it from the perspective of the new player - dying is frustrating. it costs the party 10% xp, you are dependant on someone else to get you back alive (IF they get you back alive).

    now, speaking to your bard example.

    (assume 14 CON)

    base bard at level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD + 40 CON + 10 Argo) = 190
    base bard at level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD + 20 CON) = 100

    (assume 8 CON)

    level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD -10 CON + 10 Argo) = 140
    level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD - 5 CON) = 75 HP

  2. #102
    Community Member zex95966's Avatar
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    I'd love for it to add something about prestige classes. Something like:

    Almost every class can obtain a powerful Prestige class! be sure to pick one up when leveling your character, a list of prestige classes and their requirements can be found here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancements

    something like that.

    I think another important section to add would be explaining DC's, Spell penetration and saves better. many many people do not know about spell penetration and/or think it's the same thing as having a high DC or if looking at themselves, might think they don't need high saves if they have spell resistance. none of those is true, and really should be explained.
    Last edited by zex95966; 03-17-2011 at 11:49 PM.
    Homer: "Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen."



  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thucydides04 View Post
    I just rolled a haggler on a 2nd acct and leveled it while tring my main. All it did was stand at dungeon entrances and buff the group while we ran the quest. At 20 she had ~230 hps and I took her into an ev6 w/o any of the items I mentioned. She died 1 time. Afterward, I said this unnacceptable and sent her some taps and a con item, now she has ~350 hps. She does not die at all when I run her unless I am toting her stone for convenience. If I gave her a tome and +2 exc con and a shroud hp item she would be standing at 430 hps which is plenty for a non melee.
    comparing a dual box piker toon is not relevant in any way to this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitesco View Post
    Because of experience, +1 DC to tactics, +10 HP, 5% healing amp or something else? Past lives are weak and should be the last thing you pursue if you care at all about real power.

  4. #104
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm View Post
    no, because you basically skipped the character from level 1 to level 20. level 20 isn't the problem, its level 1-14. the problem is that people who have level 100's of characters forget how bad it was to play your first build and how much margin of error you needed.

    if you were to say, take a cleric to level 9 and then advertise for a new player run of the pit elite. how many raise dead scrolls do you think you'd use whne the majority fo the people in the party have 70 hit points. now think about it from the perspective of the new player - dying is frustrating. it costs the party 10% xp, you are dependant on someone else to get you back alive (IF they get you back alive).

    now, speaking to your bard example.

    (assume 14 CON)

    base bard at level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD + 40 CON + 10 Argo) = 190
    base bard at level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD + 20 CON) = 100

    (assume 8 CON)

    level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD -10 CON + 10 Argo) = 140
    level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD - 5 CON) = 75 HP

    Why would you include the Argo boost to HIT points, but exclude so many other easy to get boosts. If you are making a simple core comparison include all likely boosts, or exclude them all, don't toss and extra 10 to one pile. Not that it changes your point a lot, but if you were to now add all the likely boosts one could expect to learn about and know and actually be able to employ at those levels the the delta hit points are still the same. The 14 CON toon will have 60 more HP at cap given all other things being the same. At 10th level the difference will be 30 HP.

    Yes 30 is a large difference between 100 and 70 (unless penalty stats are 1/2 the normal boost, that should be -10 HP and -20 in your examples). That is having almost 50% more HP. But if the player has read a +2 tome (10 more HP for each case), has toughness Feat and same toughness enchanements (33 for each case), has an Improved False life item (20 for each) and a +4 CON item (another 20 for each case).

    Now we are comparing (14 base) 100+10+33+20+20 = 183 vs
    Now we are comparing (8 base) 70+10+33+20+20 = 153

    While the magnitude of the difference is still 30, the impact of that difference is significantly smaller. Add in the hopeful fact that those point not spent in CON are usefully allocated to some other stat, and you may well have a more effective and survivable character overall.

    I have seen far more high hit point noobs who rely on simply having enough HP to outlast the mobs, fall and die due to HP arrogance than I have seen lower HP toons getting one shoted. When on one of my clerics types, it is often quite easy to tell who views their survival as being the responsibility of someone else.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    This whole lack of pros and cons along with neutral guidance on how to make choices is why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.
    I think the issue here is that you are not thinking about the 101 level. Getting into more advanced topic matter like how to make a strong solo character or a custom build pros and cons discussion is not for the intended audience. This guide is intended for _new players_. Subsequent guides, covering more advanced material, could possibly cover the material you have mentioned but it might be more than a little overwhelming to a brand new player unfamiliar with the game.

    Honestly, a better approach might have been to fix the premade paths (including stat selection) to represent the current state of the game. However, this would not have had as much value in terms of visibility.

  6. #106
    Community Member Thucydides04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystafyi View Post
    comparing a dual box piker toon is not relevant in any way to this thread.
    Yes it is, since I made an example of how I went and played the toon and the HPs were not up to snuf, but the rub is that I started with a 14 con. Con was not the issue, instead it was lack of gear.
    Wyclef
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  7. #107
    Community Member Thucydides04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucidPhilosophy View Post
    I think the issue here is that you are not thinking about the 101 level. Getting into more advanced topic matter like how to make a strong solo character or a custom build pros and cons discussion is not for the intended audience. This guide is intended for _new players_. Subsequent guides, covering more advanced material, could possibly cover the material you have mentioned but it might be more than a little overwhelming to a brand new player unfamiliar with the game.

    Honestly, a better approach might have been to fix the premade paths (including stat selection) to represent the current state of the game. However, this would not have had as much value in terms of visibility.
    It should be mentioned in the con section that there are other sources of HPs out there. Dumping con is not a wise choice, however neglecting these other sources of HPs is even worse than dumping con.
    Wyclef
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by 101guide View Post
    In DDO, your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is a small number with big consequences. BAB determines your ability to hit enemies with both melee and ranged weapons; the higher your BAB, the better your combat accuracy! Additionally, BAB sets the speed (number of attacks) at which a character fights.
    I may be wrong but I thought BAB didn't effect ranged attacks per second.

  9. #109
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Going to break this down into suggestions for each section:

    Ways Your DDO Character Grows:
    - Mak the diagram have clickable link overlays that jump to the respective sections.

    The Relationship (& Difference) between Levels & Ranks:
    - This is generally simple, but there is a KEY clarification that needs to be made. "Every rank offers up some Action Points, which are spent on buying enhancements for your character" is NOT true. Every level has 5 ranks, but only the first 4 offer action points. You may want to change this section of the paragraph "To gain a level you first need to earn enough experience to obtain five “ranks.” However, each rank is useful too. Every rank offers up some Action Points, which are spent on buying enhancements for your character." to instead read "To gain a level you first need to earn enough experience to obtain five “ranks.” The first four ranks earn you Action Points while the fifth earns you the level! Action Points are us for buying enhancements for your character."

    Base Attack Bonus:
    - You may want to include a basic chart that at which points your BAB increases your attack speed/number of attacks. (6, 11, 16) An actual % breakdown of the base would extremely nice.

    Skills vs. Feats:
    - I would change the title of this to "Skills and Feats". There is compare and contrast in this section, thus making the "vs" confusing and silly.

    Ability Scores:
    - I think you should add a brief note about ability modifiers. How every 2 points in an ability affects the modifier by 1, and that 10 = 0. So 8 would be -1 and 12 would be +1. (almost) everything is based off the modifier, not the straight stat, so there is no difference between 14 int and 15 int.
    - In addition you should note that enhanced abilities (be it through enhancements or items) do not count towards feat requirements or additional skill points.
    - Strength: Add a bit about how strength also affects your weight capacity
    - Dexterity: I would suggest adding a note that many types of armor can limit your dexterity.
    - Constitution: Completely scrap this part: Keeping this Ability Score at 14 is encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style. Brave adventurers sometimes use 12. I would instead suggest putting: "Health points are EXTREMELY important in DDO. The world is full of traps and dangerous monsters, and they can be the difference between life and death. It is suggested to not go below 14 Ability Score on this stat"


    Rest of the article looks good to me.
    Last edited by DrawingGuy; 11-30-2011 at 10:41 AM.

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