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  1. #41
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    People with max Con die too. Sometimes even first.
    I snipped the rest because you're starting to get ranty. Take a breath dude.

    I'm just saying that low ability scores are more difficult to change than gear/enhancements/feats/tactics and playstyle. So, might as well start them off on the right foot.

  2. #42
    Community Member Lifeblood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FordyTwo View Post
    Edit: I also see discussions have been going on about 10 CON still being too low. That seems reasonable, so I bumped the entry to suggest 12 instead.
    While many would agree that 12 is still too low....Thank you for listening to us and bumping it up

    as 101 is directed at new players one would have to assume 28 pt builds and therefore less pts to go around..

    "Come on folks its easy" Tico 20 Cleric, Montico Arti, Longlife 18/2 Ranger/monk, Jaaomae wc 20, Teeco Cleric

  3. #43
    Community Member Drfirewater79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FordyTwo View Post
    In my ongoing effort to gather and present information for newer DDO players with lingering questions, the Character Stat 101 guide has been published today.

    Constructive feedback and criticism is encouraged! I'd love to hear feedback from you (the community!) on information that's potentially missing from this guide, or that you feel could be presented in a better manner.
    suggesting everyone keep there con above 12 .. funny ...

    you do realize without telling them why you do little to no justice to them.

    for each 2 points of con you get 1 hps per level ... so taking a con 8 you will have 40 less hps then a con 12,

    if 40 hps is the difference between you suck and your uber .. then do it .. but dont take the suggestion that you NEED 12 con cause that is not entirely accurate and is highly pending on your class selection and multiclassing choices.

    You can easily hit over 350 hps with the right gear with a 8 con at lvl 20. it just means getting the right gear.
    If you feel you need more then 350 hps .. then simply add 20 hit points to 350 till you get to the number you want to have and figure out how many points to put in con. The more you put in con the less you can put into other stats so chose wisely.
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    drfirewater... thanks for being the voice of reason!

  4. #44
    Time Bandit Renegade66's Avatar
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    Probably TMI, but . . .

    Dexterity
    Coordination and agility! Affects your primary defenses (Armor Class, or AC), ability to dodge attacks (Reflex saves), and the accuracy of your ranged attacks. Also helps Rogue's ability to sneak and open locks.

    Intelligence
    Learning ability and reasoning! Affects skill points gained at each level and the amount of bonus spell points and spell difficulty check (DC) for Wizards. Also important for Rogue's ability to locate and disable traps.

    Wisdom
    Willpower and intuition! Affects your willpower (Will save) and the amount of bonus spell points for Clerics and spell difficulty check for Clerics and Favored Souls. Wisdom also boosts a Monk's Armor Class.

    Charisma
    Personality and magnetism! Determines how well you influence non-player characters (NPCs) and affects the amount of bonus spell points (Sorcerers, Bards and Favored Souls) and spell difficulty check for Sorcerers and Bards.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Sirea's Avatar
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    Wow, I can't believe that there are people in this thread that think that telling new players that Constitution is an important stat to all classes is a bad thing.

    I would think that trying to help new players increase their survivability would be an invaluable piece of advice.

    But then again, I must only think that because I'm an "evil zerger powergamer", right?
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  6. #46
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FordyTwo View Post
    After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 14 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON.
    Fixed that for you
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    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  7. #47
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    Wow, I can't believe that there are people in this thread that think that telling new players that Constitution is an important stat to all classes is a bad thing.

    I would think that trying to help new players increase their survivability would be an invaluable piece of advice.

    But then again, I must only think that because I'm an "evil zerger powergamer", right?
    It isn't that CON ISN'T important, rather how important is it.
    With CON and HP it more about gear and feats and enhancements than a difference in 2 points in the build.

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  8. #48
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    But then again, I must only think that because I'm an "evil zerger powergamer", right?
    I think you forgot "elitist" and "conformist" somewhere.
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  9. #49
    Community Member Cauthey's Avatar
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    Hey, FordyTwo (or any other Turbine staff):

    The image is broken on the 101 article lead in on ddo.com. The image is linked to the admin-side site, which the public cannot access.

    See? Here: http://www.ddo.com/



    You're welcome.
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  10. #50
    Community Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cauthey View Post
    Hey, FordyTwo (or any other Turbine staff):

    The image is broken on the 101 article lead in on ddo.com. The image is linked to the admin-side site, which the public cannot access.

    See? Here: http://www.ddo.com/



    You're welcome.
    Fixed.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    The amount knowledge required to make a workable 8 CON character and play it to cap would probably be more than typically covered in a 101 (US college introductory) course (just the information needed to build it might come close to a few fluff courses I had to take).
    To start with, I'm glad somebody recognizes what a 101 course is. After reading the current 101 lesson I was under the impression somebody thought it meant writing for middle schoolers. Given the number of "wow this is great" comments I was left thinking that this, unfortunately, is what the community thinks is appropriate.

    I'd also like to agree with your assessment. It is beyond the skill level of most players to make low stat characters work. That is because of the interrelationship of stats to key parts of DDO.

    Rather than bland statements like "CON should be at least 10" players should be told what the interrelationships are between CON and a) HP, b) fortitude and c) player base acceptance. The fact that the player base generally views HP as the replacement for AC (because AC is meaningless in higher level quests and DPS is too low if you manage adequate AC) needs to be communicated. The game's mechanics of inflated monster HP drive this. That monster HP is inflated in order to allow one mob to represent 10 or 100 times its actual number in an encounter (a standard computer game design decision) influences that mechanic. And all of it drives monsters being more powerful in the game than they would be in PnP -- which makes AC mostly meaningless.

    So the message has to be conveyed to the gaming base that stat choices are important and there are consequences to each choice. These are not so simple as the impact on number of skill points or differences in saving throws. They also impact DCs and HP and AC. And the entire game is a balancing act that is tilted heavily towards HP because the player base is heavily tilted towards min/maxing in order to gain ultimate benefit out of each class.

    That Turbine rewards this with their game design only further pushes this. In all of the quests there is only 1 where balanced characters gain a perk for their balance -- and that is to turn some runes to avoid fighting some mobs. Most groups will either bypass that option or they'll power thru the mobs. (I'm talking about Partycrashers.)

    If min/maxing were punished thru game design then we'd see a lot of balanced characters and the use of many more skills. But that isn't how DDO is designed and at this point in time it is unrealistic to think that it will change.

    So, a 101 course has to address the game the way it is. This means explaining the consequences of too much emphasis on a stat as well as the consequences of too little emphasis. It also means addressing the key min/max build concepts and the issues of DPS and/or offensive & defensive spell power.

    It certainly isn't a college freshman style course in its current state.

  12. #52
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    The purpose isn't "pros and cons". It's advice for new players, who don't know enough about the game to weigh those pros and cons. And I think it's pretty clear that new players are better served by advice about what they're likely to encounter, not what a handful of elite players do.
    This is sheer arrogance. What you are saying is that new players are too stupid to figure out things on their own if you give them the pluses and minuses. Instead they should just do what they are told to do because we know best.

    That isn't Character Stats 101, that is here's the build play it.

    If the purpose isn't pros and cons then the document has the wrong purpose. It is totally worthless without that element.

  13. #53
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FordyTwo View Post
    After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 10 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON.
    Most veteran builders can agree that when designing a character, the rule of thumb is always to pump points into con at least until it costs double points (2 points per rank versus 1) - the majority of races will make it to 14 con, which makes for a good foundation - end-game that is 40 more hitpoints.

    I would personally up this number to 12 at the least .
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  14. #54
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I hope you realise that you just allowed the power gamers to dictate how "ALL" ddo chars should be made (stats allocated).
    If I were into giving rep I'd give you a +1. You get "it" -- in this case the it being that powergamers dictate how DDO is being developed and played.

    It is unfortunately true. But the entire 101 could be replaced by the official build thread and the 20 or so "approved" powergamer builds. Could even make it easier by not even allowing players to play anything else.

    Save us all a lot of trouble.

    Or....

    We could accept that DDO is D&D based and that the freedom to make choices is part of the appeal of the game. We could understand that our purpose is not to tell people what must be done but to tell them what can and probably will happen when specific things are done.

    As I pointed out, a low CON character might solo very well. It might perform poorly when grouping, though, because of a change in tactics. Brute force is the standard group tactic and low CON doesn't perform well in that situation. So, a perfectly playable character might become unplayable grouping.

    If this is explained to a new player then they'll be able to make an informed decision about CON.

    This applies to any stat.

    The 101 would be better if it advocated understanding and focused on the pluses and minuses of each stat decision.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    don't know if this has been said:

    "Tip! Some class abilities and feats require you to have a “minimum” amount of a particular Ability Score. Keep that in mind when picking your ability increases! "

    Add 'although you can increase ability scores with enhancements and equipment, these do not count towards your "minimum" amount.'

    Catches a LOT of people out. 'But... but I HAVE 17 dex! And enough BaB! Why can't I buy GTWF? What do you mean enhancements don't count? Why doesn't it say that in the feat description! How are you supposed to know this stuff!'
    The flip side of this is that you *can* use enhancement for spells. So players once a player learns the hard way, he can expect an other lesson from the school of hard knocks. Or he can read the forum.

  16. #56
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    That is quite different from what the term "dump stat" actually means.

    A "dump stat" is something that a type of character does not need, and may as well leave very low. For example, Wisdom is a dump stat for Sorcerers. If Constitution were a dump stat for some classes, then it would be sensible for those classes to leave Consitution very low. But since Constitution is fairly important for everyone besides hagglebots/bank-mules, to say it isn't a dump stat is accurate.
    In the most technical sense you are right. However the implication is that you can never have a 6 or 8 CON and have a playable character which is untrue. I appreciate the need you have for technical accuracy but it is hardly relevant.

    The relevant piece is that each stat choice carries consequences. The decision to invest a build point into a stat has consequences. The decision to not invest a build point into a stat has consequences.

    In the strictest sense none of the stats are dump stats except that DDO does a poor job of demanding balance in a character. If we were earning our end rewards based on our charisma that would suddenly become important. If more quests demanded bluff or intimidate or similar skills we'd see more INT for skill points along with more CHA.

    Dump stats only exist because of game design.

    But, that very game design rewards some build point investment more than others. This is why we have min/max builds dominating. A melee character needs 2 stats -- STR and CON. Nothing else is required. It is possible to sacrifice a small amount of damage (STR) or HP (CON) for DEX in order to boost total damage. But, if a player cannot afford the DEX they can simply elect ranger as a class.

    An arcane only needs 2 stats -- their casting stat (INT or CHA) and CON. If they have leftover build points they might invest in STR but that is a last choice.

    A divine only needs 2 stats.

    You don't start into the 3 or more stats until you get to bards and rogues. And, even then you might be able to get by with 2.

    But, this is only 1 approach to the game. And it demands reliance on other players in a group setting.

    A player that is soloing as well as one into permadeath or static grouping might find a lot of advantage in balancing their stats. They might easily find that they can not afford points in CON even if it is desireable because of the importance of other stats.

    This is complicated by 28 point vs 32 point builds. The 4 build points extra might be the ones that would be shunted off to CON.

    Once again, if CON is genuinely not a dump stat then we should just charge it to the builds up front and disallow anything with less than 14 CON.

    And, as Talon pointed out, that makes 14 CON the new average -- meaning anything less than 18 is really weakness.

  17. #57
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drfirewater79 View Post
    suggesting everyone keep there con above 12 .. funny ...

    you do realize without telling them why you do little to no justice to them.

    for each 2 points of con you get 1 hps per level ... so taking a con 8 you will have 40 less hps then a con 12,

    if 40 hps is the difference between you suck and your uber .. then do it .. but dont take the suggestion that you NEED 12 con cause that is not entirely accurate and is highly pending on your class selection and multiclassing choices.

    You can easily hit over 350 hps with the right gear with a 8 con at lvl 20. it just means getting the right gear.
    If you feel you need more then 350 hps .. then simply add 20 hit points to 350 till you get to the number you want to have and figure out how many points to put in con. The more you put in con the less you can put into other stats so chose wisely.
    That is correct.

    And it speaks to the whole problem with the current structure of the 101. It does not explain thus it means nothing.

  18. #58
    Community Member Sirea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    A melee character needs 2 stats -- STR and CON. Nothing else is required. It is possible to sacrifice a small amount of damage (STR) or HP (CON) for DEX in order to boost total damage. But, if a player cannot afford the DEX they can simply elect ranger as a class.

    ...

    You don't start into the 3 or more stats until you get to bards and rogues. And, even then you might be able to get by with 2.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    Wow, I can't believe that there are people in this thread that think that telling new players that Constitution is an important stat to all classes is a bad thing.

    I would think that trying to help new players increase their survivability would be an invaluable piece of advice.

    But then again, I must only think that because I'm an "evil zerger powergamer", right?
    That is not what we are saying. If that is what you are reading then you don't understand.

    What we are saying is that you should tell people what the good things are about choosing to invest in CON and you should tell them what the bad things are if choosing not to invest in CON. Replace CON with every other stat at any point in the 101.

    CON is one of the most useful stats. Choosing to leave CON low adversely affects HP which measure how easy you are to kill. The more HP you have the less likely you are to die. But, this has to be balanced out with your ability to kill monsters or otherwise peform your class role. An arcane that sacrifices INT or CHA (depending on class) in favor of CON will be less likely to die but also less effective in their spell casting. A cleric that sacrifices WIS for CON will have more HP but less spell points and thus less healing power. A solo focused character that invests in CON but doesn't give enough focus on their other stats might find that they can't kill the monsters even though it takes the character a longer time to die.

    New players need to see the good and bad in each choice -- not have some number tossed at them as a recommendation.

  20. #60
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    Someone's never rolled a Paladin before I take it...
    LOL, yeah paladins -- they need like every stat but they'll settle for dumping INT most of the time.

    Then again, I remember when paladins had to have min 17 CHA and we would roll 3d6 in sequence until we got the 17 or 18 for CHA. Then we'd look at the other numbers and throw it all away when STR was a 5 and DEX was an 11....

    Stat heavy builds with 28 points are a good reason to explain the pros and cons of decisions and let the player choose rather than giving "advice."

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