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  1. #101
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    How is it "integrity" to not sell loot you got from questing?

    Regardless of what Turbine did on these forums, selling items you get as rewards is not, was not, and never will be an exploit. I realize that people got into paranoia mode over this, and were too afraid of possible repercussions from a company who has badly mishandled things like this in the past, but sometimes you should just trust your common sense.
    Common sense tells me when something is too good to be true, it's a mistake...

    Taking advantage of a dev mistake is, by definition, an exploit.

    There is no way the devs INTENDED everyone to be able to max out their plat in a day. That's what common sense tells me.

    However, since the devs did nothing Monday or Tuesday to fix or even talk about the problem, I don't care what they intended anymore. If they ban people over this, they're scum.

    It was integrity to not abuse the system over the weekend when it was possible the devs were unaware of the issue...

    I'm not so sure one should be proud of their restraint on Monday and Tuesday. One can't help feeling a little bit like a fool for not loading up...

    I never farmed for gems, but I did trade in all my remaining gems for doubloons (and doubloons for rods) last night... I made about 700k plat. I wasn't going to abuse the event, but I wasn't going to throw away 700k plat either.

    Part of me feels like a fool for not loading up 40 million plat. Part of me is glad I didn't.

    All of me is mad at the devs for allowing this to happen, and continue to happen, even after they were aware of the problem.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 03-02-2011 at 01:26 PM.
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  2. #102
    Community Member Zaodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeldur View Post
    Right. Because nobody jumped into the cove, ran 5 minutes killing every skeleton, hopped out, hopped in again, rinse, repeat. And without even spending a Compass. I doubt that was the reason they made the Compass not disappear if you didn't succeed.
    Turbine has stated, officially, POINT BLANK, that farming items from quests is 100% LEGAL without completing the quest, so long as you do not perform any exploits to get those items.

    According to your logic, it would be a bannable offense to go into Von4 Epic, run to the chest in the pit, and recall out and repeat until ransack.

    Luckily, Turbine has made an official, non-retractable, 100% certified, verified, and user-accessible statement that FARMING LOOT IS LEGAL.

    That is the part that you and others aren't getting. They ALREADY went on record saying this is legal.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Common sense tells me when something is too good to be true, it's a mistake...

    Taking advantage of a dev mistake is, by definition, an exploit.

    There is no way the devs INTENDED everyone to be able to max out their plat in a day. That's what common sense tells me.

    However, since the devs did nothing Monday or Tuesday to fix or even talk about the problem, I don't care what they intended anymore. If they ban people over this, they're scum.

    It was integrity to not abuse the system over the weekend when it was possible the devs were unaware of the issue...

    I'm not so sure one should be proud of their restraint on Monday and Tuesday. One can't help feeling a little bit like a fool for not loading up...

    I never farmed for gems, but I did trade in all my remaining gems for doubloons (and doubloons for rods) last night... I made about 700k plat. I wasn't going to abuse the event, but I wasn't going to throw away 700k plat either.

    Part of me feels like a fool for not loading up 40 million plat. Part of me is glad I didn't.

    All of me is mad at the devs for allowing this to happen, and continue to happen, even during the workweek.
    In my channel I said this... I won't condemn those who gathered what they had left over and "converted into plat". But I do frown upon those who farmed specifically for gems only to make plat. That to me is the true exploit. I did neither, however.

    I hope they make an event next week where Gold Dubloons and Gems are very hard to get and can make even more awesome items. I'm loaded on Golds and Gems...

  4. #104
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    I think Turbine's mistake in this wasn't the price of the wand in plat, it was its price in doubloons. The plat worth of the wand was a typical amount for that lvl of wand. The problem is, it shouldn't have required so few doubloons to obtain. The doubloon cost should have been at least 1k.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    Turbine has stated, officially, POINT BLANK, that farming items from quests is 100% LEGAL without completing the quest, so long as you do not perform any exploits to get those items.

    According to your logic, it would be a bannable offense to go into Von4 Epic, run to the chest in the pit, and recall out and repeat until ransack.

    Luckily, Turbine has made an official, non-retractable, 100% certified, verified, and user-accessible statement that FARMING LOOT IS LEGAL.

    That is the part that you and others aren't getting. They ALREADY went on record saying this is legal.
    Ah. Ransack. You touched the main difference. The Cove doesn't ransack.

  6. #106
    Community Member Zaodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Common sense tells me when something is too good to be true, it's a mistake...

    Taking advantage of a dev mistake is, by definition, an exploit.

    There is no way the devs INTENDED everyone to be able to max out their plat in a day. That's what common sense tells me.
    And common sense tells some players that window farming (holding the window of a quest open to repeat it without going back to npc) is not intended, YET, Turbine has said that its 100% LEGAL.

    And common sense tells some players that loot runs for chests in Epic Von4 is not intended, YET, Turbine has said that its 100% LEGAL.

    Lesson learned? Common sense, isn't common. And it rarely makes sense.

    Add to that, Turbine was told on Llamania about this, and did nothing.

    "Common sense" tells me they intended for players to be able to get plat this way.

  7. #107
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    Turbine has stated, officially, POINT BLANK, that farming items from quests is 100% LEGAL without completing the quest, so long as you do not perform any exploits to get those items.

    According to your logic, it would be a bannable offense to go into Von4 Epic, run to the chest in the pit, and recall out and repeat until ransack.

    Luckily, Turbine has made an official, non-retractable, 100% certified, verified, and user-accessible statement that FARMING LOOT IS LEGAL.

    That is the part that you and others aren't getting. They ALREADY went on record saying this is legal.
    Read your own post... RANSACK.... Ransack was put on the chests to stop this EXACT behavior...

    So yeah, a mechanic where you could loot a chest forever would be an exploit...

    You have to be a complete moron to think a developer INTENDED for people to be able to max out their plat in a few hours...

    By definition, exploits are possible (but wrong) actions in the game. You're saying the exact opposite. You're saying, "Hey it's possible, it's in the game, it can't be wrong". By YOUR definition, there has never been an exploit in any MMO ever.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  8. #108
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    Unhappy Wonderful event, too good a haul

    Quote Originally Posted by smatt View Post
    I'm more concerned with all the BTA items that are of high quality these days. Those items are far more damaging to the game over all than a temporary flood of plat ... I think it's a HUGE mistake to start floodign the game with BTA epic gear, and even some of the lower level high quality BTA gear.
    I completely agree which is one reason why I suggested a plat 'buyout' system for BtA and BtC several weeks ago (here). I believe Turbine has taken the wrong direction here but I would hazard a guess it just is not a major concern of theirs. Their major concern is the economy for TPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    my predictions:

    3) This will probably result in 30%-50% premium over existing prices for a long time to come (6 months or more).
    Again, I agree. I don't believe the in-game economy ever 'recovered' from the change to the plat standard in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    If I had known what effect the event was going to have I would have thought twice about renewing my sub at the end of Feb I am really disapointed in how much plat many people made as well as the items it a trully a monty haul game now and no I didnt get any plat or items from the event.
    *sigh* My thoughts exactly; since when did DDO become SO damn monty haul. There are many reasons why but the only thing I can do is ignore and minimize its impact on my enjoyment - which is fine, it just means less pugging. And less pugging by increasing numbers would be bad for the game - except - with the increasing numbers playing perhaps it is not at a noticeable level, at least until all the lfms become the 'I have to check you on my DDO' or 'link your gear' variety.
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  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Read your own post... RANSACK.... Ransack was put on the chests to stop this EXACT behavior...

    So yeah, a mechanic where you could loot a chest forever would be an exploit...

    You have to be a complete moron to think a developer INTENDED for people to be able to max out their plat in a few hours...

    By definition, exploits are possible (but wrong) actions in the game. You're saying the exact opposite. You're saying, "Hey it's possible, it's in the game, it can't be wrong". By YOUR definition, there has never been an exploit in any MMO ever.
    This... If someone still can't understand after reading this, just give up.

  10. #110
    Community Member Zaodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Read your own post... RANSACK.... Ransack was put on the chests to stop this EXACT behavior...

    So yeah, a mechanic where you could loot a chest forever would be an exploit...

    You have to be a complete moron to think a developer INTENDED for people to be able to max out their plat in a few hours...

    By definition, exploits are possible (but wrong) actions in the game. You're saying the exact opposite. You're saying, "Hey it's possible, it's in the game, it can't be wrong". By YOUR definition, there has never been an exploit in any MMO ever.
    Its not about ransack. Some players think to do it EVEN ONCE is illegal !!

    Turbine CANNOT have a TOS/policy based on player's "common sense", its stupid and ineffectual. No player will think the same way as any other.

    If you had any doubts about making plat this way, your mind could go two directions:

    - your way: "hmm, making lots of plat, must be illegal"
    - my way: "Turbine has officially stated this is legal, no problems."

    My way makes more sense, because the result lays in the hands of Turbine, not in the hands of 1000s of players who all think differently.

  11. #111
    Community Member kyleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Their best course of action is to
    1. fix the price of items across the board. Both in game currently and in the event. (aka a patch)
    2. Admit a mistake and to tell players they are going to do a better job about such selling of items from here on in. Enjoy the money boost while it lasts.
    ^This.

    Mass Bannings does NOT help the game progress and grow. I didn't even realize the sellable vendor thingy until I figured it out for myself the last day of the event. I was too busy farming the crystals...BUT, I EARNED my gems and I had nothing else to DO with them but trade them in for SOMETHING. So I loaded up on Air Ele crystals and sold off all the thingys I could because why would I want to hold on to this event junk until it comes back when I can just farm those diamonds and emeralds so easily when it comes back?

    The "exploit" comes from those people who were literally farming the gems to make plat by vedoring stuff over and over and over.

    HOWEVER, Turbine (according to many other posters) was told/warned of this "problem" and chose not to change the value of the items. There just is waaay too much gray area here to justify those dreaded mass bans. There is no reason if this was an exploit that Turbine couldn't have better informed players to knock it off through WorldChat (soandso guild reached level 70) or through a quick edit to a loading screen saying that those caught farming will be banned. Sadly, we don't all roam the forums at work when we should be doing other things...for shame!

    Personally, I feel I did nothing wrong by clearing out my already too-full inventory of all my gems/coins in order to make a few bucks that were available to be made. I didn't farm specifically for gems, they were a by-product of grinding enough crystals to make my tier 3s. I earned them, and just because the plat to time ratio was DEFINITELY off, so was the Epic crafting to time ratio, so it seems to me they planned it to be this way.

    With that being said, I loved this event and I hope future events turn out similar to this (no necessarily in style, just in functionality and entertainment value). Also, PLEASE do more voice work for in-quest mobs like the kobolds, it was excellent!

    Wall of Text /off

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    Its not about ransack. Some players think to do it EVEN ONCE is illegal !!

    Turbine CANNOT have a TOS/policy based on player's "common sense", its stupid and ineffectual. No player will think the same way as any other.

    If you had any doubts about making plat this way, your mind could go two directions:

    - your way: "hmm, making lots of plat, must be illegal"
    - my way: "Turbine has officially stated this is legal, no problems."

    My way makes more sense, because the result lays in the hands of Turbine, not in the hands of 1000s of players who all think differently.
    You're wrong two times.

    One because Turbine never stated the "wand conversion scheme" as legal. They abstained word, so we don't know yet if it is or not legal in Turbine's eyes.

    You're entitled to your opinion about it, but don't affirm that Turbine made any statements towards this, because they didn't. The closest they did was deleting threads that mentioned it - hinting that they are not okay with it - and that's the best we can assume for now.

    And the second time you're wrong is when you say that the opinions of players will or not change the way a game is handled. It's okay to assume that it will not be players judging what is going to happen if Turbine comes to make an official announcement regarding this, but players can - and will - influence the game.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleann View Post
    ^This.

    Mass Bannings does NOT help the game progress and grow. I didn't even realize the sellable vendor thingy until I figured it out for myself the last day of the event. I was too busy farming the crystals...BUT, I EARNED my gems and I had nothing else to DO with them but trade them in for SOMETHING. So I loaded up on Air Ele crystals and sold off all the thingys I could because why would I want to hold on to this event junk until it comes back when I can just farm those diamonds and emeralds so easily when it comes back?

    The "exploit" comes from those people who were literally farming the gems to make plat by vedoring stuff over and over and over.

    HOWEVER, Turbine (according to many other posters) was told/warned of this "problem" and chose not to change the value of the items. There just is waaay too much gray area here to justify those dreaded mass bans. There is no reason if this was an exploit that Turbine couldn't have better informed players to knock it off through WorldChat (soandso guild reached level 70) or through a quick edit to a loading screen saying that those caught farming will be banned. Sadly, we don't all roam the forums at work when we should be doing other things...for shame!

    Personally, I feel I did nothing wrong by clearing out my already too-full inventory of all my gems/coins in order to make a few bucks that were available to be made. I didn't farm specifically for gems, they were a by-product of grinding enough crystals to make my tier 3s. I earned them, and just because the plat to time ratio was DEFINITELY off, so was the Epic crafting to time ratio, so it seems to me they planned it to be this way.

    With that being said, I loved this event and I hope future events turn out similar to this (no necessarily in style, just in functionality and entertainment value). Also, PLEASE do more voice work for in-quest mobs like the kobolds, it was excellent!

    Wall of Text /off
    I agree with everything you said. I don't condemn those who cleared what they had leftover, although I didn't. I'll love it if Turbine comes up with something that everyone who traded gems/dubloons will regret (like even more awesome items with almost impossible farming for the gems/dubloons).

    >] I'm evil, I know. And add weight to plat please?

  14. #114
    Community Member pMagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordDamax View Post
    A lot will be spent on the AH on the stupid overpriced stuff. 30% goes away right there.

    Some will be lost on inactive players.

    It will level out, some.

    Whats bad about the economy right now is the same thing in real life... before this, the rich people had cash, and they held onto it or traded it amongst themselves. How many richie riches bought high end stuff from noobs?

    Now, noobs had the chance to get millions of plat, without any real work. The market is a glut. Imagine giving almost every sub-35k/year person in your state $2 million. Inflation would spiral out of control. The balance of things would be completely wacked out.

    I'm not saying noobs arent entitled to cash, I'm saying such a massive influx it, esp to people who don't usually have it, torches the economy.

    You're a noob, you need some <expensive item on the AH> and cant afford it. All of a sudden, you have a turdload of plat. You buy all you want and cheer at your newfound fortune. AH is empty. People list more. It sells. People raise prices, will it sell? It sells. Prices are now stupid high. See my post above. And people will STILL pay it because they have all that free plat.

    As an example, I have a hagglebot who sells all my vendor trash. Anything AH-worthy he throws up. I usually sell about 20% of it, I relist the other 80%, if that doesnt sell the second time I vendor it.

    My last round? EVERY SINGLE ITEM sold. Even the things I thought I overpriced a little. +1 Ghost Touch 1/4staff of Disruption. Nice item. 100k plat nice? No. But I threw it up to see (before I was even aware of the economy issue). It sold within 24 hours.

    When people HAVE more they will pay more. Private trades among the elite doesnt change a thing. The NON Elite have buckets of money, and its being spent.

    It WILL even out... its just going to take a while.
    Well written. Same thing is happening on Cannith. A few days after the event all the large devil scales got bought from the AH. All the bloodstone - gone. Now a bloodstone is 1.9mil bid, 2mil buyout. Large devil scale are now 1 mil a piece. In trade channel they are 800k plats.

    Definitely inflation (again) on Cannith. How long will it even out or return to normal? Time will tell.
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  15. #115
    Community Member Zaodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeldur View Post
    You're wrong two times.

    One because Turbine never stated the "wand conversion scheme" as legal. They abstained word, so we don't know yet if it is or not legal in Turbine's eyes.

    You're entitled to your opinion about it, but don't affirm that Turbine made any statements towards this, because they didn't. The closest they did was deleting threads that mentioned it - hinting that they are not okay with it - and that's the best we can assume for now.

    And the second time you're wrong is when you say that the opinions of players will or not change the way a game is handled. It's okay to assume that it will not be players judging what is going to happen if Turbine comes to make an official announcement regarding this, but players can - and will - influence the game.
    No, I am not wrong. Turbine didn't have to comment on Crystal Cove, because they already posted Official Policy about exploits, and Officially said, in writing, that looting over and over without completing the quest is legal. Period. Its in writing. Just because people made a lot of plat in Cove, doesn't invalidate the official statement from Turbine.

    And regardless of players influence over the game or not, the TOS (Terms of Service) is decided by only one entity - Turbine. They decided to be vague about what is / is not an exploit. That is why people think, to this day, that window farming quests, or loot running quests, is illegal. And its why people are split about this Cove thing. We're split because we aren't mind readers, and have no idea what Turbine even thinks about this, or any other thing like it that may come up in the future.

    When a company like Turbine says something is universally legal, and then one, specific, particular instance of that thing causes an issue, you aren't exactly in a position to say "Um, well, except for that!!! /ban !" They cleared the way for this. Its on them. They have only and solely their lack of communication to blame. Not players.

  16. #116
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleann View Post
    The "exploit" comes from those people who were literally farming the gems to make plat by vedoring stuff over and over and over.
    Why would it be an exploit to sell 5000 wands and not an exploit to sell 5 wands?

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    Its not about ransack. Some players think to do it EVEN ONCE is illegal !!

    Turbine CANNOT have a TOS/policy based on player's "common sense", its stupid and ineffectual. No player will think the same way as any other.

    If you had any doubts about making plat this way, your mind could go two directions:

    - your way: "hmm, making lots of plat, must be illegal"
    - my way: "Turbine has officially stated this is legal, no problems."

    My way makes more sense, because the result lays in the hands of Turbine, not in the hands of 1000s of players who all think differently.
    Common sense has went out the window in this thread.

    Anyone thinking pushing the EASY PLAT BUTTON is what Turbine wanted (planned or not) has lost touch.

    People should look up the definition of exploit and see if it fits the EASY PLAT BUTTON of 2011.
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  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    No, I am not wrong. Turbine didn't have to comment on Crystal Cove, because they already posted Official Policy about exploits, and Officially said, in writing, that looting over and over without completing the quest is legal. Period. Its in writing. Just because people made a lot of plat in Cove, doesn't invalidate the official statement from Turbine.
    The Cove isn't a normal quest. There is no "looting" per definition. There is no ransack. And the presumed "entry cost" isn't even paid. Adding onto that, the looting per se isn't the actual problem, it's what comes after. Perhaps they did intend for us to be able to farm gems, in occasion of someone not killing many things and not having enough to make their items.

    But I honestly do not believe their plan was to allow people to farm for gems, trade for dubloons (namely gold), trade for wands and sell wands at vendors, making more plat in a single day then they've made ever since they started playing. Unless this is a scheme to just eliminate the value of plat from the game and make a whole new currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaodon View Post
    When a company like Turbine says something is universally legal, and then one, specific, particular instance of that thing causes an issue, you aren't exactly in a position to say "Um, well, except for that!!! /ban !" They cleared the way for this. Its on them. They have only and solely their lack of communication to blame. Not players.
    I agree entirely with this.


    Now tell me, of all the mechanics that you have already mentioned are officially legit, is there any single one that will allow you to cap your plat in one day (without involving player trade)? In a week even?

    And please note that the Cove doesn't even have anything to do with luck. Any way to get rich fast in the game involve luck - selling rare loot.
    Last edited by Kaeldur; 03-02-2011 at 01:58 PM.

  19. #119
    Community Member Zaodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    Why would it be an exploit to sell 5000 wands and not an exploit to sell 5 wands?
    +1 for impressive mental clarity.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    Why would it be an exploit to sell 5000 wands and not an exploit to sell 5 wands?
    000 is the difference.
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