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  1. #1
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Default YASH - Yet Another Staff Horcrobat (13r/6f/1m)

    I know there have been a lot of half-orc quarterstaff acrobat builds posted lately. This is another one. I'm posting it because I have been asked about my build several times in-game, and because I often find myself posting comments on other quarterstaff builds. It will be nice to have this to refer back to.

    The definitive thread for quarterstaff builds is The_Phenx's Big F'n Stick thread, which has extended far beyond his original build. The build I was most directly inspired by when creating my own build, and the build this is most similar to, is OldAquarian's Horc Staff Master build. I owe him a big "Thank You" for inspiring me to make my own horcrobat, which I have had a blast with.

    I have leveled this build up to cap, and it is my current main character. I swapped feats and enhancements a few times before ending up with this variant, which I am very happy with. It's an incredibly fun character to play, and of course the quarterstaff animations make you feel like a ninja. I chose the level order to maintain playability antrap skills throughout, even though it meant delaying the first prestige enhancement a bit.

    I think this is one of the best melee options out there for someone who likes to play solo at times, since it's quite resilient (improved evasion, decent stunning and tripping, reasonable HPs), has full trap skills, and can hit a high UMD, while still laying down solid DPS. Plus, knockdown immunity is just addictive. (Try running into Frame Work and aggroing a bunch of minotaurs -- you'll get bounced around like a pinball, but stay standing and fighting.)

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Badstick d'Trick
    Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
    (6 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 288
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 14
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 8
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
    Strength             20                 27                   31
    Dexterity            12                 14                   17
    Constitution         14                 16                   16
    Intelligence         12                 14                   14
    Wisdom                8                 10                   10
    Charisma              6                  8                    8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
    Balance               5                 11                   17
    Bluff                 2                 22                   23
    Concentration         2                  3                    4
    Diplomacy            -2                 22                   23
    Disable Device        5                 25                   25
    Haggle               -2                 -1                   -1
    Heal                 -1                  0                    0
    Hide                  4                  6                    6
    Intimidate           -2                 -1                    0
    Jump                  9                 20                   24
    Listen               -1                  0                    0
    Move Silently         3                  6                    6
    Open Lock             5                 13                   13
    Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                1                  2                    2
    Search                5                 25                   25
    Spot                  1                 23                   23
    Swim                  5                 10                   10
    Tumble                2                  4                   10
    Use Magic Device      2                 22                   25
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Hide (+3)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Move Silently (+2)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+2)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Orc Orc Blood
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
    Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Skill: Balance (+2)
    Skill: Spot (+3)
    Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes
    Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles
    Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles
    Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles
    Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
    Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
    Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
    Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
    Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
    Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+2)
    Skill: Search (+3)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
    Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    Skill: Jump (+3)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Improved Balance I
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
    Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+2)
    Skill: Search (+3)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
    Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Improved Balance II
    Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Bluff (+2)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
    Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+2)
    Skill: Bluff (+3)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Move Silently (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+2)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+2)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Bluff (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+5)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
    Things to note:

    This will be pretty close to the maximum DPS possible with a quarterstaff. Strength is very high, all damage-boosting feats have been taken, and enhancements are focused on damage. Even the skills are targeted towards DPS -- bluff allows sneak attacks when soloing, diplomacy allows it when in a party.

    The high strength, high attack rate, and Opportunist allow very meaningful DPS even when sneak attack doesn't work.

    Nevertheless, this has full trapmonkey capabilities and high bluff, diplomacy, and UMD. I regularly UMD invisibility scrolls, fireshield scrolls, teleport scrolls, raise dead scrolls, and heal scrolls (sadly, not at 100% yet -- need more gear). I cannot overstate how useful UMD is -- any rogue splash should max this skill. I consider it important enough that I took the Skill Focus: UMD feat.

    This does not have stealth skills to a meaningful degree. This is unfortunate, but I decided that I preferred bluff and diplomacy to hide and move silently; you may disagree, and that is an easy swap to make.

    Stunning blow DC is high enough to be quite reliable. 2 fighter strategy enhancements, the Horc strength, and the kensai DC bonus gives a stunning blow DC of 37 when using just a 6 STR item and Stunning +10 staff (no exceptional strength). When I use my titan's grip clicky, I'm up to 40. Higher DCs are obviously possible with better gear, but even the base 37 is very usable if you choose your targets. Being able to reliably put enemies into autocrit status when soloing is very nice.

    I used all +2 tomes at level 7. This is certainly not necessary, but this build will benefit from all stats. STR, INT, and CON are the priorities; you won't suffer much from skipping the other tomes.

    Fort and Reflex saves hit reasonable values with gear; will save doesn't.

    Ranged DPS is a weak area. I use a shuriken in order to stay centered, but I've tried other throwing weapons and bows with no real improvement. Brutal Throw is not worthwhile; I had it for a time, but found that I virtually never miss even without it (and strength is added to thrown damage even without the feat). Quick Draw helps a little, but I took it primarily to reduce cooldowns after using boosts. Getting decent ranged DPS would require too much of a sacrifice elsewhere.

    Hitpoints:

    HPs are reasonable, but not huge. This is not a tank build, and should try to minimize aggro. On the other hand, it's not a "squishy" rogue.
    Code:
      20  (base Heroic Durability hitpoints)
    + 146 (13 * 6 + 6 * 10 + 1 * 8 from class HPs)
    + 120 (20 * 6 con mod-- 14 base con + 2 tome + 6 item)
    + 22   (toughness feat)
    + 40   (toughness enhancements)
    + 10   (Draconic vitality -- Argonessen favor reward)
    + 30   (Greater False Life)
    + 20   (Toughness item, probably Minos)
    + 45   (Shroud HP item)
    = 453 standing HP with normal level 20 gear, nothing exceptional and no epic items.
    That would be 473 with rage, which you can self-buff easily from pots or scrolls. Better gear (Exc. con, superior false life, etc.) can obviously raise this higher, as can temporary buffs or Yugo pots. Buffed, this easily breaks 500 HPs. Not outstanding, but it breaks the "squishy rogue" barrier.

    Equipment:

    One nice perk of this build, especially for newer players like myself, is that quarterstaffs are relatively cheap compared to other, more popular weapons. Also, there are some really nice named staffs available that don't require intense epic grind like the best weapons for most other builds. Rahl's Might, for example, is easily obtained in the Inspired Quarter, and yet -- with its 1d10 base damage and x3 crit profile -- is arguably the best general purpose DPS quarterstaff available. Dreamspitter or the very easily obtained Staff of Shadow are invaluable in autocrit situations (epics, especially).
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 02-18-2011 at 02:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  2. #2
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    --reserved for possible future use--
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  3. #3
    Community Member zebidos's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this! will be copying your build for my TR, have a 12 fighter 8 monk halfling qstaff build, fun as hell and owned levels 1 - 14 ok dps and great saves but kinda gimpy for high level content.

    Just need to work in my qstaff collection, so far I have:

    - Min II (under construction)
    - Souleater
    - +10 stunning
    - +4 metalline of pure good
    - various great banes, lawfull outsider, evil outsider, giant etc.

    Any tips on what uber mega sticks I should grind for before TRing? And what about vorpals? I picked up 2 vorpal kamas so I can use then while centered but..meh..

  4. #4
    Community Member TheMeanDM's Avatar
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    Going to start one of these (32 point build, level 4 option).

    What advice would you have for Armor and Weapons at early to mid levels?

  5. #5
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    Souleater is ml 7 and unbound and thus one of the earliest 'vorpal' weapons available. If you have access to Shroudstuff or are a TR, a triple-earth GS Quarterstaff (4 insight ac) is imo hard to beat for the price for level 12+. Staff of Nat Gann from Chrono is a great defensive option and a first Vampire/devil-beater (silver). Useful sets/items from Chrono and Red Fens plus the Jidz-Tet'ka bracers from Sentinels should bring you through the midgame easily.

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    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebidos View Post
    Thanks for posting this! will be copying your build for my TR, have a 12 fighter 8 monk halfling qstaff build, fun as hell and owned levels 1 - 14 ok dps and great saves but kinda gimpy for high level content.

    Just need to work in my qstaff collection, so far I have:

    - Min II (under construction)
    - Souleater
    - +10 stunning
    - +4 metalline of pure good
    - various great banes, lawfull outsider, evil outsider, giant etc.

    Any tips on what uber mega sticks I should grind for before TRing? And what about vorpals? I picked up 2 vorpal kamas so I can use then while centered but..meh..
    Cool, glad you like it! That's a very decent collection of staffs. There are a few you're missing, though. The big one is Rahl's Might, preferably the Force version, upgraded to Force Burst in Dreaming Dark. It's easy to miss what's so awesome about Rahl's, since most of its benefits are hidden in the base stats, and at first you may just see the Force Burst, Improved Destruction, and Deception (which are nice, but not fantastic). The real benefit of Rahl's is that it has 1d10 base damage, x3 critical multiplier, and does blunt, piercing, and slashing damage (to break some of those weird DRs like Vale spiders). It's basically a greataxe that you can use with qstaff proficiency and all the Acrobat II bonuses, and the high crit multiplier is especially nice for stunned/held enemies.

    You'll also want at least one "woo stick" -- a quarterstaff with a level drain effect. The choices are basically Dreamspitter (upgraded with Holy in Dreaming Dark) or Shadow Staff (from the Lordsmarch chain, upgraded with an effect of your choice). Personally, I like both of them. These are primarily for epics and high level quests against high-HP enemies that have been stunned or held. I personally put the Bloody effect on the Shadow Staff, since it also has lesser vampirism -- with both lesser vampirism (+1 HP to you for each strike) and Bodyfeeder (+15 temp HP on crit), it's pretty nice for survivability when you're running solo without a healer. Dreamspitter is also going to be your DPS staff of choice against most devils and demons, since it's a +5 Holy of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. On Normal, I believe it will actually out-DPS a Min II against Harry in Shroud, despite the DR.

    If you have the materials to spare, I would also try to build a Rad II quarterstaff for more sneak attacks. I would actually prioritize this over the Min II you're working on, especially since you already have a +4 met/pg.

    As for greater banes, you didn't mention undead, construct, or elemental. These three categories are the ones I would actually suggest you try to have, since they're the three big enemies you won't get sneak attacks or crits against. I carry a Holy of Greater Undead Bane, basic +3 of Greater Construct Bane (since I haven't been able to find a better portal beater staff, even after offering 2 million plat and 2 large scales for one, argh), and an Icy Burst Shocking Burst of Greater Elemental Bane. I use a Holy Dreamspitter for my evil outsider bane. The only other bane I find myself using (situationally) is an Axiomatic of Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, and that's just for farming Running with the Devils.

    You mentioned vorpals. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a blunt vorpal. The only "sort of" exception is the Souleater, which you already have. If you are really ambitious (this is my eventual plan, but I haven't done it yet), it might be worthwhile to get 2 Souleaters, and upgrade one to Epic. The Epic Souleater is currently the only "vorpal" weapon that works in Epics. Unfortunately, there's a big "dead area" between the two (levels 11 or 12 to 19) when Souleater's effect is too-often saved against and you can't use the Epic version. The only thing you can do is what you mentioned -- pick up a slashing vorpal. Kamas are good to stay in stance, but other weapons might be easier to find. Personally, I don't really bother with it. I seem to do enough DPS that I don't miss it.

    Oh, and remember to use that Stunning + 10 staff you have. I have mine hotkeyed to Shift+1, and Stunning Blow hotkeyed to 1. This build can get solid Stunning Blow DCs from the mid levels on, and with Quick Draw it's pretty fast to swap weapons. I typically open a fight with my Stunning + 10 (actually an Icy Burst Shock of Stunning +10), use stunning blow, and then swap to either a woo stick (Shadow Staff in mid levels, Holy Dreamspitter at cap) or Rahl's to take advantage of the autocrit period. Whenever Stunning Blow is off timer, I swap back to my Stunning +10, stun, and repeat.
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 03-08-2011 at 07:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeanDM View Post
    Going to start one of these (32 point build, level 4 option).

    What advice would you have for Armor and Weapons at early to mid levels?
    Well, in early to mid levels it won't be much different than most other melees with rogue levels.

    As far as armor goes, I pretty much stuck to clothing with decent effects. You could try for AC, but I personally don't bother, especially with Dex this low. I wore a Robe of Invulnerability as soon as I could for the DR/5, then swapped to a Deathblock Robe of Invulnerability once I could wear that. I would situationally swap to robes of the highest fire or acid resist I could wear at the time. Eventually, I moved into Dragontouched Vestments, but that's more high level (I put Resistance +5, Healing Amp +20%, and Earthen Guard on mine).

    For items, you'll always want to have the highest possible +skill items you can get to keep your rogue skills effective. Like any character, the highest fortification you can get. HP items are extremely important, too, since you'll be fighting on the front line and rogue levels can make you squishy if you're not careful -- always wear the highest +Con and false life items you can. Keep an eye out for UMD items, too -- this build can get a decent UMD, but it has to dump CHA, so it's dependent on items. Be sure to get a Cartouche early. If the Crystal Cove event comes back soon, try to grind for a tier 2 epic Spyglass, for the stacking + 3 competence bonus to UMD (and the search/spot, of course).

    Get the Jidz-Tet'ka bracers. Their effect in air stance is pretty useless (unless you want to run the Risia ice jumps without using potions or spells for some reason). But more than likely you'll be running fire stance most of the time, and there they grant a +25% insight bonus to healing amp, which is great. That's an extra 28 hitpoints every time you UMD a heal scroll, and makes you much easier for the healers to keep up when raiding.

    For weapons . . . Carnifex at low levels if you have it. I know it feels wrong to use an out-of-stance, non-quarterstaff weapon, but Carnifex is simply the best DPS in the game for any melee character at low levels. As you start picking up more and more feats that enhance your quarterstaff abilities, staffs become more viable. By level 10, when you have IC: Bludgeoning and Kensai I specialized in quarterstaffs, going with a staff begins to make sense; at level 13, when you get Acrobat I, it becomes definitely the best choice. (On the other hand, I personally started using quarterstaffs at level 7 when I got my Souleater, just because I couldn't stand the half-orc greataxe animation any longer . . . it wasn't the numerically best choice, but it was more fun for me.)

    Assuming you do go with quarterstaffs, even at low and mid levels, though . . . the only low level named quarterstaff really worth getting is the Souleater, and it's not really a priority; it's a fun weapon, but not worth grinding for, especially since the optional boss you need to kill to pull it is ridiculously hard at-level. (I bought mine.) For random loot, keep an eye out for the usual suspects, bearing in mind that quarterstaff crit profile and multiplier are pretty poor (so Maiming is a bad suffix, and Burst prefixes aren't quite as good as usual). If you can get a decent Holy of Pure Good quarterstaff, that can be your go-to DPS weapon -- I pretty much relied on ever-higher plus value Holy/PG and Holy Burst/PG staffs for basic DPS until I could use Rahl's Might. Also keep your eyes peeled for a banishing weapon -- even though it's an on-crit effect, it's extremely useful against mephits, demons, elementals, etc. And by the time you get Kensai I, you want to be able to swap to the highest Stunning quarterstaff you can find, since your Stunning Blow becomes really useful around this time. As you get into the mid-levels, definitely pick up a Shadow Staff. Almost any of the upgrades for it are nice; I went with Bloody for increased survivability, and don't regret it, but I could understand arguments for the others. It's the base abilities -- lesser vampirism and level draining -- that matter. I was still using my Shadow Staff against held/stunned enemies at level 20 until I managed to pull a Dreamspitter. It's such an easy grind that I don't think you should pass it up.
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 03-08-2011 at 08:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardtrick View Post
    You mentioned vorpals.....The Epic Souleater is currently the only "vorpal" weapon that works in Epics. Unfortunately, there's a big "dead area" between the two (levels 11 or 12 to 19) when Souleater's effect is too-often saved against and you can't use the Epic version.
    I'm a big fan of Acrobat's myself; always nice to see a build like this. But to counter your point, "vacuum" greensteel weapons (Trap the Soul: Air/Negative/Air+Negative) will also work in epics, but more importantly function as an instadeath weapon from levels 12-19; you just have to deal with a proc rate that is less than a true vorpal.

    Trap the Soul
    on-hit chance to cast Trap the Soul spell on target
    aprrox 1~2% chance to proc
    will save DC 30

  9. #9
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theboatman View Post
    I'm a big fan of Acrobat's myself; always nice to see a build like this. But to counter your point, "vacuum" greensteel weapons (Trap the Soul: Air/Negative/Air+Negative) will also work in epics, but more importantly function as an instadeath weapon from levels 12-19; you just have to deal with a proc rate that is less than a true vorpal.

    Trap the Soul
    on-hit chance to cast Trap the Soul spell on target
    aprrox 1~2% chance to proc
    will save DC 30
    Thanks for reminding me of this. I think you're right that the greensteel version works in epics, but I remember a couple of threads debating it. Both versions of Trap the Soul only work on enemies up to a given HD level, and there seemed to be disagreement on whether the version's HD limit was high enough to work on epic enemies; it's hard to test because the DC 30 will save is so low that epic enemies almost always save in any case. It has been confirmed that the Epic Souleater has a different version of Trap the Soul ("Epic Trap The Soul") than that cast by greensteel vacuum weapons, with a higher HD and DC. It's hard to know the exact DC, though, because it doesn't show up in the combat log when trying to test in PvP.

    Your point still stands that the vacuum greensteel effect is available from levels 12-19. And you're right, I hadn't thought of that in responding to zebidos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    Default Curious about lv 13 Rogue

    Although there are many posts with this build, I'm curious about why the choice of taking the 13LV as Rogue versus, having 12 Rogue and 2 Monk or 7 ftr. In taking the 13th Lvl as Rogue you lose 1 BAB, although gaining sneak attack and a feat, but taking a 2nd monk level would gain AC and a feat as well as a couple HP. Are those bonuses really worth losing 1 BAB?

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    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    The +1 to-hit from an extra pt of BAB should be unnecessary. And what feat do you suppose he's missing that would benefit this build more than Imp Evasion or Opportunist & +1d6 SA? AFAICT he's got everything he needs and a couple of feats he doesn't (like SF UMD & Cleave).

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    Community Member elujin's Avatar
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    i got a wf variation on the split of this and i am a big fan
    not sure though how the end of autcrit and saves going up in epic will inpackt these kind of builds
    he sits at 20 now i was thinking of tring him to a hurt locker so i could still use the staves somewhat
    Virt II makes elujin smile !

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    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G8ndalf View Post
    Although there are many posts with this build, I'm curious about why the choice of taking the 13LV as Rogue versus, having 12 Rogue and 2 Monk or 7 ftr. In taking the 13th Lvl as Rogue you lose 1 BAB, although gaining sneak attack and a feat, but taking a 2nd monk level would gain AC and a feat as well as a couple HP. Are those bonuses really worth losing 1 BAB?
    Unbongwah is right. The usual reason to take 2 monk is for evasion, but I already get that from rogue. The extra feat wouldn't benefit me, much -- I have room for 2 luxury feats, SF:UMD and Cleave. SF:UMD is really nice to be able to use GH, Teleport, Fire Shield, and Heal scrolls before being fully geared. Cleave, though, I could completely do without. I only use it on bats, and on the rare occasion when I'm the only melee with decent HPs and want to quickly grab a groups aggro. (I also occasionally use it in epics with a dreamspitter, while surrounded by held mobs, to level drain multiple at once.)

    But even if I was feat-starved, I would still take 13 rogue levels rather than an extra monk or fighter level. 13 rogue levels lets you get a second one of the special rogue feats. I wouldn't want to play a rogue without Improved Evasion and Opportunist. Opportunist is a great DPS boost (it's fun getting criticals against portals, too) and Improved Evasion is wonderful for survivability at higher levels, when there are tons of high-damage, high reflex save spells being thrown around.

    All that aside, I think 1d6 sneak attack damage outweighs 1BAB. I'm only moderately geared, but there aren't many enemies I miss on anything but a roll of 1. A few epic bosses . . . epic Malicia, for example. But even there, with Greater Heroism and Improved Destruction from my Rahl's Might, I hit nearly all the time. Raged and Madstoned, I hit on a 3. If I bother whacking the training dummy first, I can hit on a 2. So I would rather have the extra damage than the extra BAB. (You have to remember, a half orc with maxed strength has a pretty ridiculous attack bonus just from that . . . BAB doesn't matter as much as you think.)

    The only real thing of value I give up is being able to take tier 3 of fighter toughness. But I don't really have the APs to spare for that, anyway.

    Long story short, 13 rogue is the sweet spot for splashed rogues, while monk 2 and fighter 7 give very little of value to this build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elujin View Post
    i got a wf variation on the split of this and i am a big fan
    not sure though how the end of autcrit and saves going up in epic will inpackt these kind of builds
    he sits at 20 now i was thinking of tring him to a hurt locker so i could still use the staves somewhat
    Yeah . . . it's sad. The end of autocrit is definitely bad for this build -- worse than for most non-monks.

    A big part of the advantage of a quarterstaff right now is that no one can use a Dreamspitter (or other woo stick) better in epics than an Acro 2 build. Between the high strength, sneak attacks, haste boosts (9 of them per rest with Verik's necklace), and Acrobat quarterstaff alacrity . . . I tear held epic enemies apart with this guy. My stunning blow DC is actually high enough to stun casters pretty reliably, too, when they save against mass hold.

    We'll have to see how it plays out when U9 hits. If Genasi follows through on his promis to Phenx to change Dreamspitter and Shadow Staff to produce the level drain effect on all crits, this may still be viable in epics. If not, all of us with stick builds will have to give things some thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    I'm looking to make a thief acrobat 2 and your build looks pretty nice. I think I'm going to go WF instead of half-orc though, since HO is a bit expensive and the monk name I have saved is much more constructy. I had a question about your build though.

    Why starting dex 12? Is it a pre-req for something I'm missing or just because you didn't want an odd con? I saw you went up to rogue dexterity 3 as well. Is that for AC purposes or...?

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    Community Member AcesWylde's Avatar
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    I had started a slightly similar build a while back, but I went with less Strength.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...70#post3367470

    I find Cleave and Great Cleve effective at clearing trash.

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    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    I'm looking to make a thief acrobat 2 and your build looks pretty nice. I think I'm going to go WF instead of half-orc though, since HO is a bit expensive and the monk name I have saved is much more constructy. I had a question about your build though.
    Great! I predict you'll have a lot of fun with it. I did think about going warforged. You do lose a chunk of DPS, but you can make up for it with higher stun/trip DCs and better survivability, through higher CON and the immunities. If you're making it largely for soloing, I actually think that's a great choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    Why starting dex 12? Is it a pre-req for something I'm missing or just because you didn't want an odd con?
    It's not a prerequisite -- you could drop it a bit. I have it primarily for reflex save. Reflex save on this is going to be lowered a bit from a standard STR rogue due to the fighter levels. On the other hand, I'm comfortable with my reflex save at level 20 with just a +7 dex item, good luck +2, +5 resistance item, and self-casting GH, so if you wanted to drop it a bit more, I think you could do so -- you just might end up wanting to get an exceptional dex or exceptional reflex save item. I will say that even with the 12 dex, I'm pretty sure my reflex save is only borderline -- I definitely notice the difference in epics and against certain raid bosses when I forget to cast GH, so I ended up being happy I made the investment I did there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    I saw you went up to rogue dexterity 3 as well. Is that for AC purposes or...?
    That is a prerequisite -- for Thief Acrobat 2. No, it's not for AC purposes -- this build won't have a useful AC past level 12 or 14, and even that's going to require some decent gear.

    One final note: I haven't updated this for U9. If I were to do so, I would want to pick up great cleave. I have cleave now, and it's really nice since U9 -- if I weren't TRing soon, I'd spend a flawless dragonshard to swap out SF:UMD for great cleave. On the other hand, I got a lot of use out of SF:UMD before building a +6 Cha skills green steel item -- being able to no-fail heal scrolls really is a big deal. Which of those feats you go for is up to you. On a warforged, you might actually consider dropping Quick Draw, too -- I love it for the action boost cooldown decrease, but with the horc enhancements and a Verrik's necklace I have 9 haste boosts.

    Also, I took Bluff as a skill. DO THIS. I did it almost for flavor before U9, but since U9 it's been a godsend. 6 seconds of full sneak attacks every 15 seconds, plus a very significant threat reduction, making it much easier to avoid aggro when desired.
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 05-22-2011 at 06:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    what is the 1 monk level for again? I'm not seeing the value add.

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    Thanks for the tips Cardtrick. I was trying to see if I can finagle a way to get 10 levels of rogue to get improved evasion earlier but it's just way too much effort to figure it out lol. And I'd hate to blow a ton of skill points needlessly.

    Anywhoo, I think the monk level is because 14 rogue just gives 1 reflext save and a BAB, and 7 fighter is 1 BAB. The one level of monk gives you a feat (toughness!) and the stances.

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    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    what is the 1 monk level for again? I'm not seeing the value add.
    Major benefits:
    * +2 to all saves
    * stances -- I'm in fire stance usually for the stacking +2 STR and +25% healing amp from jidz-tet'ka, but you can also use air stance for the doublestrike chance
    * Bonus feat

    Minor benefits:
    * situational use of handwraps at full attack speed (really just for for oozes)
    * elemental strikes for an additional +1d6 and elemental damage sometimes (handy to add fire or acid to your attacks when fighting trolls when soloing in the early-to-mid levels, otherwise not really worth bothering with. The fire finisher is occasionally useful when you need to be able to shoot fire (lighting tents on fire in siegebreaker, probably the cold torches in Inferno of the Damned -- although I've never tried).
    * Able to get a useful armor class by wearing dex and wis items in the early-to-mid levels

    Monk is the ideal choice for that level. Taking 14 rogue or 7 fighter wouldn't give nearly as much value. If you don't have monk available, though, it's not a deal breaker -- you'll just be slightly worse off. In that case, I would suggest 1 Ranger for that level and be sure to take favored enemy: evil outsider. You'd actually end up with slightly better boss DPS, as well as the situational use of sprint boost and bow strength, which can be handy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

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