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  1. #1
    Community Member jkm's Avatar
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    Default so i was reading that suggestion thread on ADQ

    and i noticed there was a lot of complaining about why people had to run the pre-raid on casual if they were going to run the raid on epic. blah blah blah.

    question:

    do you think the devs made a mistake by allowing pre-raid and raid difficulties to be different?

    shouldn't the "best of the best" be required to run the pre-raid on epic to get to the raid on epic?

  2. #2
    Community Member augie's Avatar
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    Epic DQ2 is pretty casual. Pre-raid should be no different.

    *edit* But to add something constructive to the argument, I don't feel it was a mistake. While it's a pre-req, it's still a completely separate non-raid quest. If the devs didn't want it that way, they would have turned DQ1 into a raid, tossed a shrine and portal at the the end of DQ1 in order to enter DQ2.

    **edit #2** seems I shoulda read that thread before postin this as that idea was already suggested.
    Last edited by augie; 02-15-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty silly myself. Either:

    A.) Don't require the pre-raid to run the raid again

    or

    B.) Require both to be run at the same difficulty
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by augie View Post
    If the devs didn't want it that way, they would have turned DQ1 into a raid, tossed a shrine and portal at the the end of DQ1 in order to enter DQ2.
    You mean like Von 5 and 6??

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  5. #5
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I think the flagging needs to be done on the same difficulty.

    Alot of the responses I see lately are saying "boring grind =/= challenge" and I think they have a point. So run the flags at the same challenge level.

    What I see happening is level 20s four manning VoN 5 - normal - with one person on the right side and three on the left, getting to the golem door, then forming the group for eVoN 6. People solo the preraid for eDQ on casual. Sounds like a boring unchallenging grind to me. Flag epic > run preraid epic > run epic raid.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #6
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    fyi black hand ran von 5 epic last night, I saw linked broken greensteels, insane dcs for the casters and a nightmare of a time but it dropped 2 tokens.

    I'm so happy you don't have to do von5 on epic then von6 on epic... you would have no gear to hit velah with.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ninety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    fyi black hand ran von 5 epic last night, I saw linked broken greensteels, insane dcs for the casters and a nightmare of a time but it dropped 2 tokens.

    I'm so happy you don't have to do von5 on epic then von6 on epic... you would have no gear to hit velah with.
    it was actually Sunday that we did eVoN5 in the hand and yes, I think all the melee people went through at least 2 weapons. I was luckily on my pali, so was able to summon holy swords, but even that I went through 4 of them.

    I believe our fair caster that came with us used at least 40 pots for dancing. He was at 30 prior to the end fight, and I think he drank at least 10 more by the time it was done. All in all, I believe we were in there about 2.5 hours.

  8. #8
    Community Member Krag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm View Post
    and i noticed there was a lot of complaining about why people had to run the pre-raid on casual if they were going to run the raid on epic. blah blah blah.

    question:

    do you think the devs made a mistake by allowing pre-raid and raid difficulties to be different?

    shouldn't the "best of the best" be required to run the pre-raid on epic to get to the raid on epic?
    I think making preraid epic would be even greater mistake.

    1. All DDO quests can be done within 1 hour with a reasonably prepared group. This is a major selling point to those of us who have life. EDQ1+2 violates this rule.
    2*. EDQ1 is a "self-sufficient" quest. It has its own epic loot, it has reasons to be done on epic. There is no need to further incentivise players doing it.
    3. Organising casual flagging is already pita. Synchronising 2 reflagging parties on epic is worse. Doing re-reflagging because someone forgot to talk to djinnie twice is just madness.


    *If you feel people are not doing EDQ1 often enough you might want to reconsider droprates instead.
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  9. #9
    Community Member KillEveryone's Avatar
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    My biggest issue with ADQ1 and 2 is that you have two six player groups organizing and then combining for part 2.

    You also have to talk to the djinn correct number of times or you'll mess things up.

    You also can't reflag for three days because you can't get part 1 again until your timer is up even though part 1 isn't technically the raid.

    I don't really mind doing the quest itself and actually like it with the puzzle at the beginning but once you know what is being referred to then it is really quite easy.

    I do find it a bit silly that a lvl 20 is doing it on casual to blitz it to be able to do part 2 on epic but there isn't much incentive to run part 1 on epic or any other difficulty and any difficulty other than epic isn't going to be a challenge to a lvl 20.

    I wouldn't mind the pre-raids require you to do them on the level that you intend to do the raid. I also think that the drops should be increased for ADQ1 to encourage people to run it on epic if we are not going to be required to do it on the difficulty that we plan for the raid.

    I also feel that if this is going to be a requirement to do part 2, the djinn should just appear at the end chest and send us to the raid to cut out the issue of talking to the djinn the correct number of times and also allow it to be a 12 person instance so that we don't have to deal with the group formation coordination. Some people are just joining to get flagged and have no intention of going in the raid with the current group and may not state that up front so you have to deal with those types of issues.
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  10. #10
    Community Member krackythehoodedone's Avatar
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    Default Wouldnt Work

    Epic ADQ2 is quite a simple raid. What takes all the time is forming two separate groups of six, organising them, making sure they all talk to the djinn twice & getting them all together ready,flagged & buffed at the front door.(you wouldn't believe how often this holds the party up another 20 minutes). I would say given the average time it takes to form two groups of 6 and get them through DQ1 on casual/normal you wont get much change out of an hour

    Epic ADQ1 is a different animal. Whilst with the raid itself you can now get away with a few weaker links in the party because of the ''ball method'' DQ1 Epic will find out the weaker links unmercifully and become a huge resource drain on the others. It is much longer and more challenging whilst still being relatively easy for a really strong group.

    Therefore your EDQ2 raids will become real monster long affairs with a real chance that at least one of the groups wont make it

  11. #11
    Community Member Rydin_Dirtay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
    it was actually Sunday that we did eVoN5 in the hand and yes, I think all the melee people went through at least 2 weapons. I was luckily on my pali, so was able to summon holy swords, but even that I went through 4 of them.

    I believe our fair caster that came with us used at least 40 pots for dancing. He was at 30 prior to the end fight, and I think he drank at least 10 more by the time it was done. All in all, I believe we were in there about 2.5 hours.

    Surely Turbine did not intend for epic to be this way. But it is, what it is. What can I say?
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  12. #12
    Community Member Dark-Star's Avatar
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    Forcing people to run EDQ1 to do EDQ2 would mean only the server's elite would be running EDQ2 consistently.

    If you are going to have the pre-raid requirement, being able to do it in 5 minutes on normal/casual is far better than having to spend 35 minutes doing it on Epic each time, and allows many runs in one night.
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  13. #13
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I am of the opinion that both the pre-raid and raid should have to be run on epic either that or you just run the pre-raid once on epic and then can just do the raid on epic without flagging the pre-raid again. I think running von5 and dq1 on casual/normal are boring time sinks. I do not mind a more difficult requirement of dq1 and von5 on epic, although a year later is a little after the fact. I think if they ever make the titan epic they should either make you have to do the pre-raid on epic everytime or just flag once on epic and then can just go right to titan raid. Boring time sinks are well boring.
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  14. #14
    Community Member jkm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krag View Post
    I think making preraid epic would be even greater mistake.

    1. All DDO quests can be done within 1 hour with a reasonably prepared group. This is a major selling point to those of us who have life. EDQ1+2 violates this rule.
    2*. EDQ1 is a "self-sufficient" quest. It has its own epic loot, it has reasons to be done on epic. There is no need to further incentivise players doing it.
    3. Organising casual flagging is already pita. Synchronising 2 reflagging parties on epic is worse. Doing re-reflagging because someone forgot to talk to djinnie twice is just madness.


    *If you feel people are not doing EDQ1 often enough you might want to reconsider droprates instead.
    in my experience, your last sentence is more of an issue than the first parts. the reward/effort for EADQ1/EADQ2 (von5/6) is much much less than the reward for casual adq1 + EADQ2. by doing so, they cheapened the loot in eVon6 and eADQ2 to the point to where people start complaining about the pre-raids as a waste of time.

    this is why i ask - did the devs make a mistake?

    fyi, i personally love EADQ1 more than EADQ2 as the monkey room is hilariously crazy with all the green lasers flying all over the place.
    Last edited by jkm; 02-15-2011 at 01:40 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
    it was actually Sunday that we did eVoN5 in the hand and yes, I think all the melee people went through at least 2 weapons. I was luckily on my pali, so was able to summon holy swords, but even that I went through 4 of them.

    I believe our fair caster that came with us used at least 40 pots for dancing. He was at 30 prior to the end fight, and I think he drank at least 10 more by the time it was done. All in all, I believe we were in there about 2.5 hours.
    Ok ok last night to me :P stop being like hours behind europe gosh T_T

  16. #16
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Not a mistake. Just something that happened in the evolution from older low lvl quest into Epic.

    People have always hated having to reflag for a raid.
    While I do not like running the fact that people who only run raids over and over again as often as possible are actually rewarded for it in this game, I do not see any point in lvl 20s running DQ1 to reflag for DQ2 epic either.

    There are other stupid things that have evolved over time with high lvl chars and raids too IMO.

    I doubt that any thought was given to the idea that someday lvl 20s may be doing Von6 on normal either..... Or Reaver.

    I think that once you get high enough lvl to no longer get XP for a quest, that there shoudl be no incentive for you to run that quest. Although I do not want to see people penalised for lvling up too quickly and never getting to do a quest either...

    No easy answer. unfortunately.

    In general all of the quests filled their desired intentions when they were released. But sometimes the game evolved to make some things seem stupid now.
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    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    fyi black hand ran von 5 epic last night, I saw linked broken greensteels, insane dcs for the casters and a nightmare of a time but it dropped 2 tokens.

    I'm so happy you don't have to do von5 on epic then von6 on epic... you would have no gear to hit velah with.
    I would suggest you bind and attune you GS...then run the hardening ritual all levels on it.

    Makes them quite a bit more durable.

  18. #18
    Community Member krackythehoodedone's Avatar
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    Default EDQ1 and Loot in the same sentence!!! surely not?

    Well at least you get two tokens for Von5. And tbf it's hardly ever done enough for people to get really good at it

    Err the loot in Edq2 is pretty good in general.. i take your point about cheapening it

    EDQ1 however is a bit different. Its the end chest where the desert rare item shards have an increased chance of dropping. (allegedly m'lud. Case dismissed for lack of evidence).

    Ok you get the odd good scroll and seal drops are ok

    It is the one chest in DDO that stretches the limits of probability and grind into a mind numbing series of zero's point one. And their are zillions of similar posts bemoaning the same sorry state.

    You have to be one special kind of masochist to have done it as many times as errrrr. me for example... but joking aside its a pretty depressing end chest and you might see a drastic reduction in EDQ2's completed because of drop rates/time and difficulty.

    So pretty sure they have not made a mistake in the way you flag for the raids but dont even get me started on drop rates which was kinda the point Krag was making

  19. #19
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krackythehoodedone View Post
    Well at least you get two tokens for Von5. And tbf it's hardly ever done enough for people to get really good at it

    Err the loot in Edq2 is pretty good in general.. i take your point about cheapening it

    EDQ1 however is a bit different. Its the end chest where the desert rare item shards have an increased chance of dropping. (allegedly m'lud. Case dismissed for lack of evidence).

    Ok you get the odd good scroll and seal drops are ok

    It is the one chest in DDO that stretches the limits of probability and grind into a mind numbing series of zero's point one. And their are zillions of similar posts bemoaning the same sorry state.

    You have to be one special kind of masochist to have done it as many times as errrrr. me for example... but joking aside its a pretty depressing end chest and you might see a drastic reduction in EDQ2's completed because of drop rates/time and difficulty.

    So pretty sure they have not made a mistake in the way you flag for the raids but dont even get me started on drop rates which was kinda the point Krag was making
    2 runs in epic dq1 in the last two days and a bloodstone shard dropped. Somebody made an epic bloodstone after it. Both runs took 31 minutes each and were quite enjoyable.
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  20. #20
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Not a mistake. Just something that happened in the evolution from older low lvl quest into Epic.

    People have always hated having to reflag for a raid.
    While I do not like running the fact that people who only run raids over and over again as often as possible are actually rewarded for it in this game, I do not see any point in lvl 20s running DQ1 to reflag for DQ2 epic either.

    There are other stupid things that have evolved over time with high lvl chars and raids too IMO.

    I doubt that any thought was given to the idea that someday lvl 20s may be doing Von6 on normal either..... Or Reaver.

    I think that once you get high enough lvl to no longer get XP for a quest, that there shoudl be no incentive for you to run that quest. Although I do not want to see people penalised for lvling up too quickly and never getting to do a quest either...

    No easy answer. unfortunately.

    In general all of the quests filled their desired intentions when they were released. But sometimes the game evolved to make some things seem stupid now.
    I really don't want to see the content become obsolete. I like running reavers fate as a nice relaxing 15 min raid with decent loot. Epic kind of revitalized the desert and the Von raid, although not necessarily in the best way.
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