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  1. #1
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Guide for the Developers: Bugged/Poor Epic items in need of updates

    This is a bit of a different guide then I usually do, as this one will be based on community feedback and intended to be read by the devs to help them get a better idea on how to create more interesting and desirable Epic loot and improve existing loot
    Especially Genasi - who seems to be somewhat in charge of this and recently did a great upgrade based on player feedback, which is something we all love to see. So thank you Genasi, and hopefully you continue this trend and check my guide from time to time my guide

    First off.. What NOT to post:
    Please don't post that X epic should suck because the quest it's materials drop in is "easy" for your personal character. Epics should always stand up as powerful items, as no matter what they are by far the most difficult items to acquire. Here is a quote from developer Genasi on the subject:
    Quote Originally Posted by Genasi
    Epic items take more investment to acquire than almost any loot in the game, so to some extent they should all be viable. I'm planning on doing another round of Epic item adjustments soon, probably for the next major update, so I hope that encourages more detailed reviews of Epic items that can help me determine how to go about making more of them desirable.
    Since how good an item is is ultimately going to be heavily decided by personal opinion To use the cliche: One mans junk is another man treasure after all.

    Also please read the guide first and see if there is already a suggested upgrade for what you'd be interested in. If there is, please try to suggest a different item, but if you really think your idea is better: At least to point out why your idea is better/more balanced with reasonable evidence on why, and I may update it.

    So this is going to a community-built guide. I will take every ones suggestions and try to fairly incorporate them into the guide and keep a top 10 list compiled. Ideally the list should include items from many different packs, and things desirable to be better by many different classes.

    What this guide is NOT: Going to suggest any nerfs. Instead we will focus on the positive and find out a way to improve existing items to be as powerful as some of the very best one.
    Nor will we put too much weight into how easy some epics are compared to others. The overall imbalance of the old vs new epics imbalance is better left for a different thread. All epics should be very desirable and strong items.

    I will instead simply be compiling a guide of community feedback on the Epic items most in need of an upgrade. I will include my own opinions for now, but won't weight them any heavier then anyone else's.

    Also will include a section on obviously bugged items, of which I will list separately and just suggest bug fixes rather then upgrades.

    Bugged Items: (In alphabetical order)

    Epic Antique Greataxe:
    Upgraded version loses it's Adamantine material type - thus making it WORSE hardness then the level4 version.
    Suggested Fix:
    Change Steel to Adamantine.
    Change hardness to correct amount for a ML22 Adamantine (minimum for a Epic item) Greataxe: 32
    (Note: Lvl4 version is actually 1 less harder then a ML:4 Greataxe should have also, since it seems to be based on a +2 Greataxe with a d6 Dmg effect - which in lootgen is level2, should be 23, not 22)
    Dev noted this should be fixed soon to add adamantine, probably update 10. Thanks Genasi.

    Greater Might of the Abishai Set (All items):
    Not really a bug, but a major related issue for casters:
    The +3 bonus to caster lvl on evocaitons spells essentially does nothing for almost every spell except polar ray. A bit boring. Perhaps it should have +3 max caster lvl and +3 evocation caster lvl so it actually works on more then 1 spell. Or just call it polar ray boost so its less confusing on what it actually does.

    Epic Souleater:
    Epic Trap the soul is not "Epic" in any way.. It's essentially identical to regular trap the soul on a greensteel weapon. (Both are DC30, Proc:2%, neither have functional HD limits as some release notes tried to claim)

    .... There's lots more I'll get to soon.

    Items players most desire to be upgraded (Vote in this thread and I'll try to update it often)
    Top 10 (Number of votes in brackets):
    10 - Elyd's Edge (1)
    9 - Antique Greataxe (1)
    9 - Necklaces of Prophecy (All of them) (1)
    7 - Shatterbow (2)
    6 - Shining Crest of St. Markus (2)
    5 - Sirroco (3)
    4 - Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets (3)
    3 - Bracers of Demons Consort (3)
    2 - Siren's Ward Set (Belt and Charm) (3)
    1 - Hellstroke Greataxe (4)

    Suggested upgrades:

    Red Fens items in general:
    Seems like a bug/mistake that these are all missing slots since most items themselves aren't particularly good. Perhaps add at least colorless slots to most of them.

    Antique Greataxe:
    Needs a damage boost:
    Instead of upping enhancement bonuses/base damage and making it a really powerful all around weapon (ESoS already fills that role).. Or making it a full automati DR bypasser like your idea (no good augment required) Make it more specific for what its useful for - Pit Fiends (and still require the good augment to bypass the DR, so it's a bit more work to make the weapons power more balanced):
    Suggested upgrades:
    Fix material type to adamantine
    Add Epic Lawful outsider bane
    This would set its DPS at about 24% more then a mineral2, but still less then a slotted ESoS.

    Heavy Deneith Chain/Blademarks Docent:
    The main issue with these items is that they provide minor defensive bonuses. And they really has so little benefit that they are not worth wearing over the more commonly used Dragontouched alternatives. And that the upgrades are very minor, the base items themselves provide the majority of the benefit (Lifeshield) I suggest there upgraded into something Raid tanks may want to wear.
    Suggest (for both docent and chain):
    Armor check Penalties down to -4
    SF down to 30%
    Material upgrades to Adamantine (more hardness)
    DR5/epic to DR10/epic (Still shouldn't work on epic raid bosses, but at least its equivalent to what monks/FVS/barbarians get mostly for free. Tho if you do this, a review of current epic raid bosses to ensure they actually break epic DR may be in order)
    Healing amp 10% added
    Vertigo +15 added (It's extremely hard to trip epic monsters, and if they do get triped, they tend to get up fast.. Along with there high hp, makes it useless to use a vertigo weapon, which is a shame because it pretty much makes trip worthless on epic, yet it works great on most elites.. This armor could be a fun solution.)

    Shining Crest of St. Markus:
    Healers really get almost no really nice healing boost items, and this really should be the one since it's tough to acquire and in a slot that would really force healers to make a hard choice. As it is now, I know no one who cares to get it or use it.
    Add Clicky of Superior Ardor 8 - 3x a day - same as Amrath belts.
    Improved Devotion VII - Upgrade to Greater Devotion IX (Slightly stronger mass heals aren't going to over power the epic healer, they already pretty much fill up everyone)
    Greater Healing Lore = Superior. All epic lore items should always be superior. Greater is just far too trivial to anyone who works hard enough to acquire this.
    Add Epic Extra turning... +3 more turn undead uses. Clerics will like this and its not overpowered. Or perhaps +2 exceptional charisma as an alternative if you cannot fix the bug that causes items with additional turns to steal your turns on death/logout/etc.., as that will grant a turn and also help Favored Souls.
    Green slot = Good, keep it.

    Bracers of Demon Consort:
    Remove chance to give oneself a negative level and they would be a great item.

    Ruby Encrusted Gauntlets:
    We call this one the joke epic.. Since it really does nothing interesting at all. But it could be a very fun arcane/divine nuking item if updated:
    Combustion IX > Epic Combustion IX (+60%, not as good as clickies, but nice for a perm effect)
    Benevolence IX > Epic Benevolence IX (Make flame strike do a bit more damage, why not)
    Meteor Swarm Clicky - Change to : Epic Velahs Breath Clicky:
    Works just like Velahs Breath.
    (600-800 damage, Reflex save for half, causes Greater dispel (no save), and inflicts Velahs Mark debuff (no save) - Target takes 200% damage from fire for the next 2 minutes)
    3x per day. Very slow activation leaving the caster vulnerable during use, Almost no movement possible during activation.
    Setting a class requirement to : Bard, Sorc, Wizard, Cleric or Favored Souls, with UMD:30 might be a good idea too to avoid to much use of the clicky. and ofcourse exclusive (tho current item already is exclusive)

    Epic Hell stroke Greataxe:
    Current even slotted with a good augment to beat Queen Lailat's DR, weapon provides less DPS then a common min lvl 12 mineral 2 greataxe.. And FAR inferior damage when compared to the Epic Sword of Shadow - even one which does NOT beat her DR.
    Damage: Its rather low but can be made up for in other ways.
    Critical Multiplier: For fun and balance reasons all Epic Greataxes should be 20/x4 crit. This will not make the weapon DPS overpowered, and in fact will still be less then a Epic Sword of Shadow for most everything except auto crit.
    Doing a quick damage per swing comparison on barrage with these numbers we get these results: Damage mod: 90, Assuming we hit on a 2 with both weapons, Target: Epic Velah (Or Lailat if they both have red augments to bypass DR):
    ESoS:
    Average damage per swing: 175.625 = 175.625(Weapon) + 0(Bonus)
    Epic Hell stroke with a x4 crit:
    Average damage per swing: 127.75 = 127.75(Weapon) + 0(Bonus)
    Doesn't include the double strike, so add +6% Damage:
    Average damage per swing: 135.415
    ESoS is still far superior, but at least they are much closer and the Epic Hell stroke will be fun to use to get big critical hits on auto crit targets..
    And it's more fun to carry multiple weapons and swap out as the situation demands.. Right now its:
    Auto crit = use ESoS, Regular trash = use ESoS, Boss = Use ESoS.. Let's get some variety please.

    Atlernate:
    Make it ideal for what its themed for - chaotic outsiders.
    Just adding Epic Chaotic Outsider bane to the current version without any other changes would do it.

    Elyd's Edge:
    This should be THE bard weapon but as of right now it's just kind of "neat". Needs a little love in the damage department.
    Upgrade to x3 crit. Add Screaming and Thundering. Consider changing it to use the higher bonus of STR or CHA instead of just CHA.
    Perhaps increase the regeneration rate of bard songs while it is equipped. (Epic Anthem)

    Siren's Ward Set:
    Belt: Missing Slots - Add a Green slot.
    Charm: Missing Slots - Add a Yellow slot.

    Epic Sacred Band.
    This appears designed as a cleric item, yet offers most clerics less than a ToD ring would - even a ToD ring such as Cinder's Band that is universally considered weak and offers no useful set bonuses.
    Suggested overhauled version:
    +7 Wisdom
    Concordant Opposition
    Set bonus: Greater Devotion 9

    Shatterbow:
    Add a Red slot for Shatterbow so it can be epic like every other epic weapon.

    Epic Kundarak Warding Bracers:
    Right now for anyone without the Mabar Cloak, equipping these is a drop in AC. Kind of silly for an epic item designed to boost AC.
    Improve Protection to +7, or keep Protection at +6 and add Dodge +2.


    Epic Ring of Silver Concord:
    Change Protection +6 to either Protection +9, or leave as +6 and add Dodge +3 so it can at least replace the Chattering Ring. Or even change it to Protection +5, Dodge +3. Then its not improving anything on the AC front, but is at least allowing for a replacement for the Chattering Ring with new effects.

    Epic Kronzek's Cruelty - From Sirgog:
    This is DPS weapon, that deals far less DPS then a similar greensteel weapon (lit2 scimitar)
    Suggested Upgrade:
    +8 enhancement bonus
    Seeker 10
    2d12 base damage
    Shocking Burst
    Greater Maiming - On a critical hit, this weapon deals an extra 1d6 untyped damage (as Maiming). On a vorpal strike, it instead deals an extra 20d6 untyped damage.
    Keen (just a regular crit profile)
    Red Augment Slot

    Epic Ancient Vulkorrim Dagger - From Nospheratus:
    After the last upgrade, it's a nice dagger.. But could use one thing to make it more interesting:
    Make the Giant slayer Epic Giant Slayer and make it actually work! (Perhaps set the DC to 40)

    Epic shields in General:
    Most of them are worse DR, and worse in other ways too compared to 2 far easier to acquire shield - the very powerful hound shields.. Epics should stand above raidloot in power.
    Suggestions on upgrades from Cyr:

    Epic Shields: These got alot worse with the changes to the shield feats (as they are non-tower shields). So I suggest the following...
    Scorpion: DR 20/slashing, bludgeoning
    Ward of Undeath: Greater Disruption (this item needed lots of help)
    Khundarak Warding Shield: +1 bump to it's blocking DR (best one before needs least help)
    Coronation Shield: Light Absorbtion 50%, Light Guard 1d8 light damage when hit

    More suggestions to come from the player base.

    How to vote:
    Everyone will get 2 votes. Pick one for your favorite class/item you'd like to see updated. Then another that you just feel is a poor item overall and deserves attention. You can change your votes later if items get changed, but try not to change them too often.
    Also include your suggestions for your items and I will try to incorporate them fairly into the suggestions section.
    Last edited by Shade; 05-21-2011 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Updates

  2. #2
    Community Member Gareth_Valinson's Avatar
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    Default Siren's Belt/Charm

    1. The Siren's Belt/Charm would be a great set if it they each had a slot. Green (or Green & colorless!) on the belt and Yellow on the necklace.

    2. Boots/Ring of the Mire could use some slots. Green & colorless on boots and Yellow on the ring.

    Look at the Devil's assault stuff: well designed, nice bonuses, good slots.

    Edit:
    Added color choices for slots on 1 and changed 2 to a specific set and added color choices.
    Last edited by Gareth_Valinson; 01-28-2011 at 04:07 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth_Valinson View Post
    1. The Siren's Belt/Charm would be a great set if it they each had a slot.

    2. The rest of the Red Fens stuff (except the bracers/gloves of the claw, which are pretty nice!) could use some slots. Look at the Devil's assault stuff: well designed, nice bonuses, good slots.
    Sirens set added to top 10.

    What color slots would you think is best?

    2. Bit too vague for any guide updates.. Will need a specific item or set to be added to top 10.

  4. #4
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    1) Bracers of Deftness - Really this item needs a higher AC bonus to be worth while. As it is 'deftness' I would add a +2 dodge bonus to the item (full stacking with other dodge bonuses of different pluses. Oh and of course fix the uncanny dodge bonus so it does not make you lose clickies by switching gear

    2) Pali Necklace from sands - Add pure good modifier to all melee attacks while worn
    Last edited by Cyr; 01-28-2011 at 03:48 PM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member protokon's Avatar
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    1. siren's belt, I'd like to see a green augment slot on it to balance sacrificing other end-game gear (tod sets mostly)
    2. siren's charm, I'd also like to see a yellow slot added to this one considering how weak it is - +6 con, greater sonic resistance?

    set bonus could use a nice little boost too, come on it's an epic item set, it shouldn't match what one greensteel item can do - +4 insight to saves, +6 insight to ac.
    Last edited by protokon; 01-28-2011 at 03:57 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Gareth_Valinson's Avatar
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    Default Updated previous post

    The Red Fens items are almost well designed, they just need a bit of tweaking to be be actually useful, instead of just situationally. It hurts my brain to think about what needs to be done to the sands items; lets just start small!

  7. #7
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Elyds Edge:

    Upgrade to x3 crit. Add Sonic and Thundering. Consider Change to use the higher bonus of STR or CHA instead of just CHA.

    This should be THE bard weapon but as of right now it's just kind of "neat". Needs a little love in the damage department.

    Pretty much all the Sentinels epic items need to be changed.

  8. #8
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth_Valinson View Post
    1. The Siren's Belt/Charm would be a great set if it they each had a slot. Green (or Green & colorless!) on the belt and Yellow on the necklace.

    2. Boots/Ring of the Mire could use some slots. Green & colorless on boots and Yellow on the ring.

    Look at the Devil's assault stuff: well designed, nice bonuses, good slots.

    Edit:
    Added color choices for slots on 1 and changed 2 to a specific set and added color choices.
    I am guessing the reason the Devil Assault stuff is so good is that the ap was such a poor seller they needed to give people a reason to buy it. Not sure how well Red Fens is selling, but if it is ok then I doubt they will change anything.

  9. #9
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    I think something worth noting is risk vs reward. Alot of the weaker options epic wise in a way match their difficulty.

    Epic Sentinels is a joke so I can see why the loot isnt all that good.
    House P in my eyes is epic for dummies - loot sort of matches.
    Epic fens has a couple of hairy spots in a couple of them but the loot is a bit better than P and Sentinels so I can see this as we
    Epic Vons is a joke with 3 and 4 being somewhat of a challenge for the average group. There is some nice loot in vons esp the SOS and some good loot for specific builds.
    Epic desert are the longest and hardest of them all both in ability to find the right pieces and ability for the average group to do. While there are some excellent desert items I think all the desert items deserve the biggest change as even getting one finished desert piece takes the longest grind.
    Epic chrono is pretty muc spot on difficulty vs reward in my eyes. EDA being brutal for average groups but an easy loot run for the best.

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  10. #10
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick_robinsonchia View Post
    I think something worth noting is risk vs reward. Alot of the weaker options epic wise in a way match their difficulty.
    Regardless. That's beyond the scope of the guide.

    Epic is for - quoting the devs from there own description "The best of the best"

    The fact that some epics are far too easy (or too hard depending on your opinion) is an issue that should be addressed, but is off topic for this guide.

    So consider upgrades based on "worth using" merit. Not based on the fact some are just poorly designed making the challenge less then intended.

    Will update with notes from replies a bit later.

  11. #11
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Updated OP with votes/feedback. Good stuff, Keep it coming.

  12. #12
    Community Member wiglin's Avatar
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    Default Shining Crest of St Markus

    The crest needs a boost. I like most of the changes, but I would change the +3 turn undead to a +2 exceptional charisma. Clerics still get an extra turn undead, but it also grants some use to a FvS.

    Here is what I would like to see for an epic helmet for healers.

    Deathblock
    Superior Devotion VI
    Greater Devotion IX
    Superior Healing Lore
    +2 Exceptional Charisma
    Blue Slot
    Server: Ghallanda
    Characters: Wigs (FvS) / Wigz (Acrobat/Ninja)
    Guild: Ravensguard

  13. #13
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Other bugs I'm not sure if they been fixed yet or details on them:

    Epic Souleater - I hear the new "epic trap the soul" effect is actually worse then the standard trap the soul, due to adding a HD limit and a lower save?

    Epic Staff of Arcane power - it had problems with lowering spell DCs if you had heighten on ? or not granting the correct caster levels? Heard it was fixed but not sure.

  14. #14
    Community Member BladeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Epic Souleater - I hear the new "epic trap the soul" effect is actually worse then the standard trap the soul, due to adding a HD limit and a lower save?
    This is the fear LeLoric had after reading into the release notes far too much. The release notes say increased the HD limit, but he argued that the old version had no HD limit therefore any increase in HD limit must actually be a decrease. There's some logic to that, but having used the new version quite a bit, I can tell you that if there is an HD limit, it isn't something that you are going to run into on any orange or dark orange named mobs.

    I've trapped all manner of elementals, and my first gem ever from it was Warlock Sobrien in claw. Additionally, I have never seen an "immune" pop up next to anything but red/purple named mobs, only "save". That is, when they aren't a gem on the ground.

    As for the DC, the effect doesn't seem to trigger when you're hitting players and you don't get a message saying what the mob rolled when they save, so it's very difficult to nail down. There have been rumors of 30, but considering I'll often leave an epic with 6-7 new gems in my bag, I find that to be a very low guess. If I were to compare the number of times I see "save" pop up in combat text with the number of soul gems I get, I'd say it lands ~50% of the time.

    Considering the expanded crit range, the health return, the red slot, etc. I'd say the new Souleater is a very well designed weapon. Although if they wanted to just get rid of that pesky DC on TTS and just have it auto-land, I wouldn't complain ^^.

  15. #15
    Hatchery Founder Glenalth's Avatar
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    Same experiences with Epic Souleater for me. Seems to go off more often than my regular Trap the Soul weapon, but it's still rare enough that it's hard to nail down what that rate or save might be. The best part is that it's unique in the game and it's great fun to use.


    It would be nice to see a slot on the weaker item of each of the Fens sets, even if it's just colorless most of the time. It could also be tied to the item the Gem of Many Facets emulates to make it more of a choice for set vs emulated set. There are other issues with the strength of some of the sets, but since I don't use most of them I won't get into it.


    Red slot for Shatterbow so it can be epic like every other epic weapon. I believe Eladrin mentioned that a red slot was a "requirement" on every epic weapon. I'm hoping this just got overlooked in the first pass when the Souleater got its upgrade. Otherwise this is a decent bow with a unique ability and an interesting combination of other abilities to make it worth carrying.


    Kron'zek's Cruelty still lacks anything that makes it feel special/epic. The flavor text mentions cruel points and such. Give it a higher base damage or some enhanced version of maiming. Even vicious would work well here. It's fairly easy to get so the power level doesn't need to be ridiculous, but it would be nice for it to feel special.


    Epic Garos' Malice isn't bad, but since its main perk is duplicated on many other items including random drops it's hard to justify the time spent walking to the altar to actually put it together even if you have all the parts. The rumor of it getting vorpal was fairly interesting, but it doesn't seem to fit. Throw on a larger sneak attack bonus or some sort of stacking epic bonus. The weapon itself isn't spectacular so sacrificing the offhand damage of a better weapon for better sneak attacks could give it a good niche for rogues vs high AC targets.
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  16. #16
    Community Member darksol23's Avatar
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    Default Another bugged one

    IIRC Epic Sirroco's DC's are still bugged to be the non-epic DCs. I can confirm later tonight.

    See:
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=262886
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=283870
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  17. #17
    Community Member krackythehoodedone's Avatar
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    Default Fix These

    1, I made some mummy wraps Epic just for a laugh.. i now have useless Epic item..Ok i suppose you could make a case for wearing in epic wizzy but generally rubbish

    2, Yes. I'm totaly hacked off getting loads of neg levels from my Epic DC Bracers

    3, I want to make The Shining Crest for my Cleric, better would be great. Getting the Epic Belt of Moranon frees up the head slot.

    4, Agreed Epic Deftness Bracers are not Epic enough

    5,Ask devs to remove upgrade cost. I had an old style Epic Cape of The Roc. They made it better (yaaaay) but then made me pay another 30 tokens to put the same upgrade back on it (booooooooo)

  18. #18
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Sirroco bug added and top 10 updated.

    Note for those who replied without stating your votes.. I'm taking the first 2 items you list as your votes for the top10.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    First 'just bad' item: Epic Sacred Band.

    +6 Wisdom - Useful, but this bonus comes free on any Conc-Opp item.
    Sacred - Quite a useful modifier to have on equipment in normal/casual difficulty Delara's Tomb.
    Set bonus - Greater Devotion 8 - This is available as an upgrade to any Tower of Despair ring. While weaker than the clickies of Amara's Belt, it has its uses as it is active immediately following the wearer being raised.

    This appears designed as a cleric item, yet offers most clerics less than a ToD ring would - even a ToD ring such as Cinder's Band that is universally considered weak and offers no useful set bonuses.



    Suggested overhauled version:

    +7 Wisdom
    Concordant Opposition
    Set bonus: Improved Devotion 9

    That now allows it to replace a Shroud item in many gearsets, and the new set bonus (while weaker than the current one in some situations) does something unique and powerful.



    Second item: Epic Gem of Many Facets

    This item is situationally quite powerful (although few use it as it is difficult to build gearsets around). However, it functions in a very counter-intuitive way, replacing only one specific item in each set. In addition, unlike most other sets in game, there is no reward for wearing every item in the set.

    Suggested overhaul:
    Replace each set bonus with the following:

    "Greater Vulkoor's Might: This item is part of the Greater Vulkoor's Might 3-piece set. When you have any two or more items from this set equipped, your melee attacks deal 4 more damage and generate 20% more threat. When you have all three items equipped, you gain 10 HP. These additional HP stack with every other source of HP."



    There are other items too that I could mention, most of them weapons. IMO Epic general DPS weapons should deal around 10% more DPS than Lightning 2 weapons, and ones that bypass very important DR should deal around the same DPS as Lightning 2s do. Currently the philosophy seems to be 'make them 0-5% weaker than Shroud equivalents'.



    Edit: Oh and as to why the Fens items have no/few slots: I think that's deliberate. They appear to be intended as 'introductory' epic items, and players that are running the Fens stuff as the only epics they run will probably have four completed epic items by the time they have 20 tokens.
    Last edited by sirgog; 02-06-2011 at 05:52 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Jan 2010
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    67

    Default

    Siren's Ward Set.

    The set bonus is a joke.
    The AC part of the bonus should be either:
    +4 dodge
    +4 something that is not dodge, natural, insight
    +5 dodge

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