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  1. #61
    Community Member Khellendros13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Ultimately even if that AC is sufficient to all but eliminate his melee dmg(which i doubt) you could still take severe damage from his spells and dots.

    You'd need to add evasions and very high saves to reduce the damage you take to just the dots, else you still require heavy healing regardless.

    And you could still die instantly.

    high roll on a disinte for about 600 dmg + 2 or 3 dots tic at the same time could take you down long before anyone could respond to save you.

    I've gotten slain instantly like that on a 700hp tank. Only found my 800+ ones sufficient to consistantly survive multiple failed disintegrate rolls, given very strong healing.

    So ultimately with any tank under 800hp on elite, you really need to play it safe with a backup tank and some divine intervention applied, to cover the worst case sceneario.

    Ofcourse the chances of it happening are very unlikely, so you could very well win without incident.
    Yea that's what I was thinking also, but I still need to gear up and try it, just because
    Anything to try and get Elite ToD more regular is worth the effort to me. I know of a few non evasion ac tanks doing it, so we will see.

    Can I stress the importance of having a secondary tank on Horath's back on Hard and Elite? I forgot to remind a certain someone last night and guess what happened. It was one hell of a fun pt3 though.
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  2. #62
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Ultimately even if that AC is sufficient to all but eliminate his melee dmg(which i doubt) you could still take severe damage from his spells and dots.

    You'd need to add evasions and very high saves to reduce the damage you take to just the dots, else you still require heavy healing regardless.

    And you could still die instantly.

    high roll on a disinte for about 600 dmg + 2 or 3 dots tic at the same time could take you down long before anyone could respond to save you.

    I've gotten slain instantly like that on a 700hp tank. Only found my 800+ ones sufficient to consistantly survive multiple failed disintegrate rolls, given very strong healing.

    So ultimately with any tank under 800hp on elite, you really need to play it safe with a backup tank and some divine intervention applied, to cover the worst case sceneario.

    Ofcourse the chances of it happening are very unlikely, so you could very well win without incident.
    On Elite, Horoth's physical melee attacks do ~100 damage per second and the badges do 30, so a relevant AC or stupid-high DR does matter a lot. Horoth's spells don't do much damage overall (maybe only as much as the badges), but the damage is very spiky. A 30 Reflex save (32/34 h/e) is enough to only fail his lesser spells on a 1 and brings this damage down lower still.

    Disintegrate is 500 average on all difficulties (bosses use the same rules for spell damage that we do, so 40 'loaded' d6 base Disintegrate damage, x2.5 for Max-Emp = 400-600 with a very low probability of being outside the 460-540 range). Like most raid bosses, Horoth's caster level is equal to his CR (30/36/40 IIRC) but Disintegrate caps at caster level 20 anyway.

    I prefer to assume that a Disintegrate '1' is going to be fatal, however , and design a strategy where the group can recover from it - hence keeping Horoth's #2 threat target nowhere near Suulomades and nowhere near the healing team. DI, while useful, doesn't really make much difference as Horoth will still run across the room like a maniac after the tank falls to -9hp.

    If the tank survives the 1 or never rolls one, then great, we've taken precautions that weren't needed. But if a tank death happens, a group should be able to recover.
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  3. #63
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    Great guide Sirgog, as usual.
    One thing I can't find in your guide though is that shield blocking prevents Sully's curse effect. This adds to the fact that intimidating Sully allows for no-holds-barred, instant DPS on him from the rest of the party, which makes this tactic nearly as efficient as hate tanking Suulomades.

  4. #64
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    Great guide Sirgog, as usual.
    One thing I can't find in your guide though is that shield blocking prevents Sully's curse effect. This adds to the fact that intimidating Sully allows for no-holds-barred, instant DPS on him from the rest of the party, which makes this tactic nearly as efficient as hate tanking Suulomades.
    Yeah, intimitanking Suulo is quite a strong strategy. The odd bugs with Intimidate (which I saw again just the other day) don't cause any real trouble on Suulo, as he can't wipe the raid in the six seconds after a bugged-out or failed Intimidate, whereas Horoth pretty much can.
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  5. #65
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    sounds like you ran with a bad intim tank..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVSXJlFj06Q

    just did this the other day, no bugs.

    I find attacking while hitting the intim button causes an issue. I find auto attack can cause it to (many times I just start swinging even though I have the shield block on.

    I don't have a bug issue with intim. This is hogwash, bad players or players making mistakes and then saying 'bugged'. Its like when someone dies from trying to do too much and they say 'IT WAS LAG'.
    If i miss the intim, it is my fault and not a bug. And it does happen.

    Missing an intim is very unforgiving. Auto run away.

    now, getting stunned and him running off is completely different.

    both methods have issues with turn arounds (missed intim or someone draws aggro) or dead tank. But rarely is it true lag or a bug that causes either.
    Last edited by MrWizard; 02-20-2011 at 10:32 AM.
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  6. #66
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    if both bosses are on 1 tank expect the whole party to wipe

    this happened today on my inti pallie the horoth tank got banished and all of a sudden i saw a big red blob in my screen together with a grey blob..

    i dunno what exactly killed me tho.. i shieldblocked but yet i got cursed by suulo somehow after a good 40 seconds.. then i tried to use pots.. but that didnt work or just didnt register.. 15 sec later i was dead.. the damage they together did wasnt so high tho only on a 1 i'm screwed vs him the rest i just shrug off without to much problems if i had a bard my ac would have mattered more.. just 76 ac isnt gona save you if they both wail on you

    you can probably survive if you use glorious stand tho.. that will help tremendously for a good 30 seconds with a pretty good ac 80+ + good dr(levik/epic kundarak)bracers of the glacier and high saves .. you probably can tank them both at the same time.. as long as you dont roll a 1, i was holding out pretty good just dont have the optimal gear for it yet .

  7. #67
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwenniez View Post
    if both bosses are on 1 tank expect the whole party to wipe

    this happened today on my inti pallie the horoth tank got banished and all of a sudden i saw a big red blob in my screen together with a grey blob..

    i dunno what exactly killed me tho.. i shieldblocked but yet i got cursed by suulo somehow after a good 40 seconds.. then i tried to use pots.. but that didnt work or just didnt register.. 15 sec later i was dead.. the damage they together did wasnt so high tho only on a 1 i'm screwed vs him the rest i just shrug off without to much problems if i had a bard my ac would have mattered more.. just 76 ac isnt gona save you if they both wail on you

    you can probably survive if you use glorious stand tho.. that will help tremendously for a good 30 seconds with a pretty good ac 80+ + good dr(levik/epic kundarak)bracers of the glacier and high saves .. you probably can tank them both at the same time.. as long as you dont roll a 1, i was holding out pretty good just dont have the optimal gear for it yet .
    must have been friggin awesome!
    I find the best is to try and retreat to an area or spot where they are bunched up a bit so their attacks can only come from your front area (this keeps your blocking DR up).

    sounded like an awesome battle though.
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  8. #68
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Going to need to adjust this now that casters are very much viable in a DPS role in this encounter.

    Can anyone confirm, does Horoth still have 50/60/80 Cold Resistance (n/h/e) or at least something of that ballpark? Those figures were confirmed accurate pre-U9 by someone I trust, but with all the changes to resistances in U9 I'd like to know if they are still correct.
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  9. #69

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    Casters, especially Sorc are now very good DPS post U9. In the past, in alot of TOD groups they are the black sheep. All people want are Wiz (for buffing and kiting), and thats the only one caster in group.

    Sorc are great in bursting max/empower spells against a single target, and can do more damage than most melee in that situation.

    Hopefully more TOD groups will see that and rather than the "1 caster per group" rule. Same thing with other raids actually. Still very common now with Shroud to have 1 caster only etc.
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  10. #70
    Community Member jojje_b's Avatar
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    my strategy for dealing with orthons is to have the entire party as far north as they possible can be and then have one person who can self heal go south to kite/tank orthons.

    the orthons have a random aggro system where they teleport to a random player within a certain range and resets its hatelist. by keeping the party out of the orthons teleport range they will never ever trouble the party and just healing yourself is often cheaper on peoples spellpoints than crowdcontrolling or killing them.

    if for some reason the orthons reaches the party then just have the melees kill them

    also after u9 we often have an arcane tanking sally since if specced right they are almost impossible to steal aggro from and they are either warforged or pale masters so curses wont matter much for them.

    favoured souls are great for tanking horoth IF built for hp since they have 10dr and canhold aggro while shieldblocking minimizing the damage taken while healing themselves and getting torc procs
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  11. #71
    Community Member Dwarfo's Avatar
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    gonna need to change the dreamspitter/lifestealing weapon thing. devs nerfed that.
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  12. #72
    Community Member Niarda's Avatar
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    nice guide hope people as have been in a few TOD recently that have failed quiete dramatcically
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  13. #73
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    Excellent guide Sirgog!

    I have recently started running ToD on my rogue and cleric, trying to learn it well enough to lead guild groups. I've seen many ways it can go right and many ways it can go wrong. Horoth rampaging all over the place is usually the biggest downfall after lag/dc's. This guide has given me a lot of information that is hard to pick up when you are in the middle of everything and I'll be bookmarking it and reading it a lot.

    I'm currently flagging my TR'd barb (human) and look forward to seeing if she's capable of tanking horoth... her girly rage cry should keep him amused if nothing else lol.

    Thanks for the effort you've put in to explain it so clearly.

    Giving you a +1

  14. #74
    Community Member Adken's Avatar
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    As mentioned above, the orthons tactic has changed a little after U9.

    I play a pale master, and i just kill them instead flesh to stone or such. I cast enervation on them, and then finger of death/wail. My DC is 42, which is not too hard to achieve, so it looks like a nice way
    Lately i've seen all the casters who take care of the orthons use this instead flesh to stone and/or web.

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