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  1. #21
    Community Member unionyes's Avatar
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    Math is tough. Too tough for me.

    I appreciate the information on the game mechanics, but there are a few things that don't line up, if I understand correctly.

    When I am running away from something particularly nasty and it incapacitates me with a shot from behind, my body sort of hits the ground and slides a few feet before stopping. It doesn't seem to matter too much if I am wearing striders, Expeditious Retreat, or Hasted. But when I paralyze the Orcs in Gianthold they tend to skate for about 50' or so, turn and shoot at me once before stopping. Wouldn't we all have the same mechanic?
    Thelanis; Strngrdanger, Likkerpig, Byrnt, Obgynkenobi, Severancepay, Buffystmarie.

  2. #22
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unionyes View Post
    Math is tough. Too tough for me.

    I appreciate the information on the game mechanics, but there are a few things that don't line up, if I understand correctly.

    When I am running away from something particularly nasty and it incapacitates me with a shot from behind, my body sort of hits the ground and slides a few feet before stopping. It doesn't seem to matter too much if I am wearing striders, Expeditious Retreat, or Hasted. But when I paralyze the Orcs in Gianthold they tend to skate for about 50' or so, turn and shoot at me once before stopping. Wouldn't we all have the same mechanic?
    No, because mobs work off specific AI and you are a human player.

    If you have ever get a chance to study archer / caster AI it is VERY similar for most mobs. You approach them and their action is going to be: Run x distance away from you, turn and shoot. If the computer considers that one action within the AI, and you paralyze that mob after it started that action, it will still likely end up at its destination it was running to before you incapicitated it.

    There is a SEPARATE bug with blinded mobs where if you blind a mob AND use some other form of crowd control on it, it will move all over the place. Its funny to watch blinded statues run all over the place the first and second time, but after the 2000th time or so it gets old, heh. This has been happening since well before the U5 combat faracas took place.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-25-2011 at 10:59 AM.

  3. #23
    Community Member unionyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No, because mobs work off specific AI and you are a human player.

    If you have ever get a chance to study archer / caster AI it is VERY similar for most mobs. You approach them and their action is going to be: Run x distance away from you, turn and shoot. If the computer considers that one action within the AI, and you paralyze that mob after it started that action, it will still likely end up at its destination it was running to before you incapicitated it.

    There is a SEPARATE bug with blinded mobs where if you blind a mob AND use some other form of crowd control on it, it will move all over the place. Its funny to watch blinded statues run all over the place the first and second time, but after the 2000th time or so it gets old, heh.
    If I ever get a chance to study archer/caster AI I will probably beat my head against a brick wall to get out of it. It doesn't interest me in the least. Which is why I am glad that there are people who find it interesting and can take the time to explain things like that to me. Thanks
    Thelanis; Strngrdanger, Likkerpig, Byrnt, Obgynkenobi, Severancepay, Buffystmarie.

  4. #24
    Community Member ~jradnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unionyes View Post
    If I ever get a chance to study archer/caster AI I will probably beat my head against a brick wall to get out of it. It doesn't interest me in the least. Which is why I am glad that there are people who find it interesting and can take the time to explain things like that to me. Thanks
    LOL, this ^^

  5. #25
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghirmeshk View Post
    Our guild has lost st least four or five players to critical hits by stunned, tripped, held, paralyzed or DEAD creatures in the past few weeks. I realize this doesn't matter at all in open play, but in PD these stupid deaths are really taking their toll. I don't want to make an exception for them though because of how often they happen. It would ruin the PD spirit. But come on, Turbine. Last update you supposedly fixed it so held things wouldn't move. They move more! And so do things with all other paralyzing effects. Please fix this code problem.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

    Check out heavy fort.

    This bug is quite annoying but there's no reason to be dropping like flies from crits.

    The bug with paralyzing is quite old. The bug with holds is new as far as I know. I noticed this one for the first time when doing "let sleeping dust lie" the other day solo on my wizard. It's the first time I've ever seen it. I cast a mass hold and the creatures all failed their save. They also carried on as though nothing had happened, with 3 blue hula hoops on every one.

    /annoyed

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

    Check out heavy fort.

    **snip**

    /annoyed

    Check out most perma-death rules. No twinkage, no plat trading, 1 heirloom item, varying rules on selling gear picked up in quests...Getting heavy fort, especially at low levels is quite difficult.

  7. #27
    Community Member Ghirmeshk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    On your back, tripple rage crit hit by ogers always ticks me off.

    So yeah.. really wish they'd fix that.
    On a side note, Happy New Year, MM!

    @ Chai--Thank you for the clear explanation, though I do wish for the physic check. The skating seems to be a separate issue though and is also dangerous. Any thoughts there?


    Proud Leader of Extreme Explorers Permadeath Guild on Sarlona. Check us out at http://extremeexplorers.guildportal.com

  8. #28
    Community Member Ghirmeshk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

    Check out heavy fort.

    This bug is quite annoying but there's no reason to be dropping like flies from crits.

    The bug with paralyzing is quite old. The bug with holds is new as far as I know. I noticed this one for the first time when doing "let sleeping dust lie" the other day solo on my wizard. It's the first time I've ever seen it. I cast a mass hold and the creatures all failed their save. They also carried on as though nothing had happened, with 3 blue hula hoops on every one.

    /annoyed
    Heavy fort at lev1-7? I get that your perspective is from open play and appreciate that, but by PD standards, there is a lot of dying before that can happen. That is why I posted it in the PD forums. It is a huge problem for our community.


    Proud Leader of Extreme Explorers Permadeath Guild on Sarlona. Check us out at http://extremeexplorers.guildportal.com

  9. #29
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghirmeshk View Post
    On a side note, Happy New Year, MM!

    @ Chai--Thank you for the clear explanation, though I do wish for the physic check. The skating seems to be a separate issue though and is also dangerous. Any thoughts there?
    My "theory" is that the AI considers moving from (location) to (location) as one specific "action", especially in the case of caster AI and archer AI where its common for the mob to run away from attackers to keep shooting them, and if the paralysis, trip, stun etc....happened after the mob decided to move, in many cases the computer is finishing the mobs movement for them - because if a mob started an action, it gets to finish that action.

    The AI of certain mob archtypes seems to make them perform the same way any other mob of the same archtype would perform, so each thing the mob can do is likely coded as separate single actions it can take.

    DEV confirmation of, or complete denial of, - this explanation would be nice.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    My "theory" is that the AI considers moving from (location) to (location) as one specific "action", especially in the case of caster AI and archer AI where its common for the mob to run away from attackers to keep shooting them, and if the paralysis, trip, stun etc....happened after the mob decided to move, in many cases the computer is finishing the mobs movement for them - because if a mob started an action, it gets to finish that action.

    The AI of certain mob archtypes seems to make them perform the same way any other mob of the same archtype would perform, so each thing the mob can do is likely coded as separate single actions it can take.

    DEV confirmation of, or complete denial of, - this explanation would be nice.
    Clear explanation (good luck) would be nice. Some of the biggest skaters seem to be scorpians. While the "decide to move" part makes sense in a weird sort of way, scorpians seem to be doing multiple moves..possibly are they moving and not doing a "paralyze" check until they attack?

  11. #31
    Community Member Aeolwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is a symptom of the "offhand proc" and "double strike" combat change. When that U5 combat nerf happened, the way the physics checks work now makes this happen. I knew to watch for this because I used to play EQ1 which had the same offhand proc and doublestrike mechanic. I will outline how this used to work and how it works now, briefly.

    Before:

    Previously in combat for a TWF player, every single swing, main hand AND offhand, had a physics check run on it to determine a few things, one of which was if you were close enough to hit the mob with your weapon when the attack was made. It was determined by Turbine that the sheer number of physics checks was causing lag in certain situations sooo.....in U5 the combat system was changed.

    After:

    Now the physics check is made for the main hand ONLY, and it is ASSUMED by the computer that if the main hand attacks and the character was in range to make the strike, and an offhand proc occurs, the player is also in range for the offhand to strike, because the offhand proc is now tied to the main hand and not given its own physics check.

    Basically what this means is if the character starts the sequence, it is assumed the character will be allowed to finish the sequence as well, regardless of other circumstances.

    This is ALSO true of the mobs. Many mobs have really slow animations. It is assumed by the physics check system that they too get to finish whatever animation they started. Kobold shaman slowly raising their hands to cast and ogres reving up for their triple stomp are two examples we see at low level. If that ogre STARTED reving up for the triple hit, he gets to FINISH the triple hit, according to the way the physics check system they completely ganked from EQ now works, regardless of other circumstances.

    End result:

    I have seen an ogre look like he was about to stomp, get commanded to the ground, and the eager party runs up there to smack the prone ogre, and gets crushed. I have also seen kobold shaman stunned or commanded, and then someone gets held or lightning bolted well after, right at the time the kobolds casting animation would have completed, had it not been stunned.

    Unfortunately, the bad news for PDers is: This is working as intended, according to the U5 combat changes.

    When we moaned about the lag for three years straight, they put this system in to fix one aspect that was contributing to that lag. Something about being careful what we asked for comes to mind.
    Excellent explaination & spot on. The only part I'd have to say is a bit off is the movement part: Scorpions are able to submerge and move several times while paralyzed.
    Aeolwind (5/12) - 18 Sorc/1 Art | Melisandria - 20 Fighter SD | Anlona - 20 cleric RS

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