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  1. #1
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Arrow Shroud Etiquette and why we as a server should stop screwing over newer players

    Intro/Disclaimer:
    Overall this message is meant to inform players who may not already know about what goes on and why. To help them make the right choices when it comes to joining shroud LFMs. Some players may join the LFMs that do not best benefit them becaue they simply don't understand the concepts. Additionally I have a more lofty goal in mind of changing the servers concept of a "speedrun" as a whole - see the bottom for details on that.

    What this is not meant to do:
    Tell people how to run their own raids - only to encouarge them to be considerate of how they might impact others.
    Tell people which groups to join - only to encourage them to make choices that will make Khyber a friendlier place overall.


    I know I know veterans:

    "I got my core group of friends, what do I care?"

    Not all new players are bad. So please. Avoid screwing them over in the Shroud by default to save yourself a whole 1 minute.

    What im talking about:

    Shroud "speed" runs LFMs or so there called - ones that Deny players from looting along the way and from leaving at the end. Unless you actually have a hardened group that's going for a world record for fun (In which case you probably won't need an LFM)- I'd ask that you not do these. (But I fully acknowledge that you as a Raid leader have the right to run your raid absolutely any way you wish)

    Why?

    Because they screw over the new player.

    Shroud was always intended by the original designers to be a multi-tier'd raid. Where some less prepared groups would not be expected to finish it - But still get some loot and or XP out of it as long as they completed 1 part. Or even if they did finish it, have the option to leave and go again to gain more ingredients.

    Some new players will want to leave and go again. Don't deny them this option. (Again: I fully acknowledge that you as a Raid leader have the right to run your raid absolutely any way you wish - I just don't agree with it)

    By denying newers players who simply do not have multiple characters like yourself ready to go a chance from doing this, your doing a dis-service to our entire server.

    So please. Allow the more casual or newer players to get there loot as normal and leave at the end if they so desire.
    If you MUST save that whole 1 minute or whatever from not looting early on - Why not simply ask your party politely beforehand once it's full if they would be ok with that? Why enforce the rule on everyone who might be interested in running the raid at that time in the LFM?
    Give them the chance at least.

    You don't need to answer. We know why:
    Greed.
    You want more loot faster and new players don't matter right. Why should you care?

    Because it's not worth it. Screwing over new players to save yourself a few minutes is not making our server a fun or friendly place for newer players. And new players keep Khyber alive and interesting.

    And the arguements:
    1. But they could just run there own, mines for Veterans only!
    Well some new players simply don't have the knowledge and skill to lead the raid - and even if they do.. Well chances are the Veterans looking for a group will join the name they know better, leaving them with no one to run with even if they do make such an attempt.

    2. But they are really better off completing and getting the part5 chests anyways since it would lead to a faster greensteel upgrade. I'm doing them a favor by forcing them to complete!
    Good for you. And maybe your right? Maybe not? Either way that's not your right to decide for them. You should have the courtesy to give the players a choice. Even if you think there making the wrong choice - They deserve the right to make that decision on their own. Letting players choose for themselves makes for a friendly overall experience, and a friendlier server.

    I know this plea won't be heard by the hardcore shroud leaders that lead these types of things. And I fully acknowledge that you as a Raid leader have the right to run your raid absolutely any way you wish - I simply disagree with it.

    I just think our servers image as a whole for doing this needs to change. And changing this overall image of our server willl require our whole servers effort.

    So I offer a plea to the players of Khyber - new and veteran alike:
    If you are looking to run Shroud and see multiple groups - Join the one that isn't going to screw over the new players. Join a regular run. Don't encourage these people who only care about there own greed.




    Further notes for those interested:
    Our server has 2 common LFM designations:
    Speedrun/No DD/Loot at end: This is the one I'm referring to that screws over the new player.
    Semi-Speed: This just means the group wants to go fast, but won't do anything to screw over a new player. This is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

    What I hope (I realize this is a lofty goal) to change for our server as a whole:
    Speedrun = means what semi speed means now.
    Semi speed term is phased out as it should not even exist.

    Final Disclaimer:
    AGAIN I do not care about how you personally run your personal shroud run - This is not about you, it's about the bigger picture. I care about our Servers image as a whole and how we defined "speedrun". I care about players overall thoughts on our community.
    Last edited by Shade; 01-24-2011 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Too many people not reading the entire post and making assumptions.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    I know I know veterans:

    "I got my core group of friends, what do I care?"

    Not all new players are bad. So please. Stop screwing them over in the Shroud be default to save yourself a whole 1 minute.

    What im talking about:

    Shroud "speed" runs LFMs or so there called - ones that Deny players from looting along the way and from leaving at the end. Unless you actually have a hardened group that's going for a world record for fun (In which case you probably won't need an LFM)- you should not be doing these. Ever.

    Why?

    Because they screw over the new player.

    Shroud was always intended by the original designers to be a multi-tier'd raid. Where some less prepared groups would not be expected to finish it - But still get some loot and or XP out of it as long as they completed 1 part. Or even if they did finish it, have the option to leave and go again to gain more ingredients.

    Some new players will want to leave and go again. Don't deny them this option.

    By denying newers players who simply do not have multiple characters like yourself ready to go a chance from doing this, your doing a dis-service to our entire server.

    So please. Allow the more casual or newer players to get there loot as normal and leave at the end if they so desire.
    If you MUST save that whole 1 minute or whatever from not looting early on - Why not simply ask your party politely beforehand once it's full if they would be ok with that? Why enforce the rule on everyone who might be interested in running the raid at that time in the LFM?
    Give them the chance at least.

    You don't need to answer. We know why:
    Greed.
    You want more loot faster and new players be damned right. Why should you care?

    Because it's not worth it. Screwing over new players to save yourself a few minutes is not making our server a fun or friendly place for newer players. And new players keep Khyber alive and interesting.

    And the arguements:
    But they could just run there own, mines for Veterans only!
    Well some new players simply don't have the knowledge and skill to lead the raid - and even if they do.. Well chances are the Veterans looking for a group will join the name they know better, leaving them with no one to run with even if they do make such an attempt.

    I know this plea won't be heard by the hardcore shroud leaders that lead these types of things. Changing this attitude will require our whole servers effort.

    So I offer a plea to the players of Khyber - new and veteran alike:
    If you are looking to run Shroud and see multiple groups - Join the one that isn't going to screw over the new players. Join a regular run. Don't encourage these people who only care about there own greed.
    Umm how do they force you to not loot ? Is there a special button I can press that stops people in my group opening there chests ?

  3. #3
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanmeerkat View Post
    Umm how do they force you to not loot ? Is there a special button I can press that stops people in my group opening there chests ?
    By entering it in the LFM.

    And if someone breaks the rule in the LFM, they add said player to the squelch list as a sort of punishment.

    New players generally don't want to ruffle peoples feathers tho, and will abide by the rules, even if they inconvience them by enforcing a timer they'd rather not have.

  4. #4
    Founder aldan's Avatar
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    So very glad I do not have toons on Khyber. What a ridiculous idea. You can still fly through ultra fast and loot along the way.

    Sounds like khyber got a higher share of WOW kiddies than we did.

  5. #5
    Community Member flynnjsw's Avatar
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    How about you just read the lfm and not join them if you don't want to? I know for a fact that there are dozens of Shroud LFM's that go up, and the majority of them say ddoor at the end. Join those if you are so concerned.

    In other words, don't tell me how to run my Shrouds and read the LFM before joining.

  6. #6
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldan View Post
    So very glad I do not have toons on Khyber. What a ridiculous idea. You can still fly through ultra fast and loot along the way.

    Sounds like khyber got a higher share of WOW kiddies than we did.
    Overall Khyber is a nice server with great people, it's just these raid leaders that give us a bad image.

    My hope is we can fix that image by boycotting them.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chris79's Avatar
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    I do like a speed run, but there is usually enough time to explain things along the way if there are newbs in the group, so I agree with the OP in principle.

    As to not letting someone recall before clicking altar....that's just plain silly!

    KHYBER: Drilltex WF Monk 20 (TRx2), Pyrric Human Wiz (20), Drilltor WF Wiz (20), Drillsworn WF FvS (18)

  8. #8
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnjsw View Post
    How about you just read the lfm and not join them if you don't want to?
    A very greedy attitude.

    New players are often left with 2 choices:

    Do I join and get that timer that I'd rather not have, but at least get a run in tonight?
    or
    Do i wait and hopefully a more normal run comes along? (but may not come in time before they have to log out)

    Forcing them to make that choice makes our server not a very nice place to be for that player.

    And this isn't about me. Im a veteran player with a ton of characters thta will almost always complete. I just like to group with new players and don't like whats happened to our server as I know it doesn't happen on other servers.
    Last edited by Shade; 01-24-2011 at 09:27 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    By entering it in the LFM.

    And if someone breaks the rule in the LFM, they add said player to the squelch list as a sort of punishment.

    New players generally don't want to ruffle peoples feathers tho, and will abide by the rules, even if they inconvience them by enforcing a timer they'd rather not have.
    There LFM there rules .

    I have never seen one of these LFMs .

    And New people are notorious for not following the rules in LFMs

    There is no harm in being squelched by an ass hat

  10. #10
    Community Member sweez's Avatar
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    I don't mind "speed" LFMs, at least you know what you're buying. "Semi-speed", though... is in the eye of the beholder. And there's no beholders in Shroud.
    Comfortably [d|n]umb

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  11. #11
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanmeerkat View Post
    There is no harm in being squelched by an ass hat
    There is if said ****** is the only one leading the raid you want to run. You can no longer join.

  12. #12
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweez View Post
    I don't mind "speed" LFMs, at least you know what you're buying. "Semi-speed", though... is in the eye of the beholder. And there's no beholders in Shroud.
    If you care about new players. You would mind, and you'd try not to join them if you'd accept my plea.

    semi-speed is a term that should not even exist on our server. It basically means:

    Fast but we will not screw over new players. Something that I have no issue with.

    That should be the DEFAULT, not the exception. That's what I want to change.

    Speedrun should mean: Fast but we will not screw over new players.

    Semispeed term should not even exist.

  13. #13
    Community Member flynnjsw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    A very greedy attitude.

    New players are often left with 2 choices:

    Do I join and get that timer that I'd rather not have, but at least get a run in tonight?
    or
    Do i wait and hopefully a more normal run comes along?

    Forcing them to make that choice makes our server not a very nice place to be for that player.

    And this isn't about me. Im a veteran player with a ton of characters thta will almost always complete. I just like to group with new players and don't like whats happened to our server as I know it doesn't happen on other servers.
    Axer you are out of your mind. It is a choice regardless. No one is forcing anything on anyone. To say that you have to "hope another more normal Shroud comes along" is silly. There are almost always multiple Shroud LFM's up at the same time, and the speed runs are the exception, not the rule. Plain and simple, the Raid Leader determines how they want to run that raid. It is YOUR choice to both join, and then continue if you do not like the rules.

  14. #14
    Community Member Undone1's Avatar
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    I have never been in a "No looting" speed run I have been in a "Hit the alter" run or two but the reason you join those is because you want to run 2 shrouds in the time it takes to pug one, I have also been in plenty of "Speed" runs which gave a DD option and would wait.

    I was under the impression the reason you did "No looting" was to make the loot gen lag reduced and so that in part 3 you can just break crystals if you cant get the puzzles in ~15 seconds. Although I think you understate the difference in times, I have been in 17 minute runs but I have been in no DR breaker runs (As a healer) Which took 50 minutes, thats a pretty stark contrast to something that takes 1/3rd the time. If the difference were 20 minutes not 17 that would be a whole different story or 39 not 35.

    Truth be told the real reason I run shroud isn't even for larges any more, as if I'm looking for loot/min Epic scroll farming trumps all but possibly epic DA, the reason is that 20 completions is the only way to wear two greensteel items and +3 tomes aren't terrible.
    Characters: Owenz Fighter 20, Ocuul Favored Soul 20, Horthgar Monk 20

  15. #15
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    I havent run the Shroud yet, but its coming up at level for me soon. Its the first of the raids that intimidate me, since people like me are so reviled on the forums in this raid and a handful of others. By people like me I mean I dont have the best gear in the game (I havent run this level of content ever), and I dont know exactly what I am doing or where I am going. I dont know the nicknames for things by sight and location and I dont touch things unless I know what they are. Ok, that last part isnt so bad.

    Its going to take some work, but I am going to have to look hard to find a group that is actually willing to teach me the raid. It's not that I want to be the point man my first run (or three), but I'm going to need to have someone explain to me as we go WHY certain things are being done. Reading a walkthrough in the forums is one thing, doing it in game is another.
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
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  16. #16
    Founder aldan's Avatar
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    People are always welcome to create whatever LFMs they wish. I agree with Shade, I am sure there are plenty of good peeps there. Thelanis has had some issues but not to bad. We have of course the usual issues with TR LFMs that must run perfect, no deaths, know you way, etc.

    I do sometimes understand abit. Sometimes I do not have time to dork around due to kids, work, grad school, etc, so I create a group and get a hireling and get started, I usually put in the LFM to know what your doing and BYOH. I will always get a few that come in under prepared and die, then get ****ed and rage quit cause I will not run 50 miles back to get them.

  17. #17
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnjsw View Post
    Plain and simple, the Raid Leader determines how they want to run that raid. It is YOUR choice to both join, and then continue if you do not like the rules.
    Thus my plea.

    For veteran players to make the right choice to improve our servers friendlyness to new players by chosing to NOT join these raid leaders groups.

    Everyone will make there own choices, but how we as a server make choices will reflect upon our image as a whole.

    I simply want everyone to understand the issue and make the best most educated choice.

  18. #18
    Community Member flynnjsw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    I havent run the Shroud yet, but its coming up at level for me soon. Its the first of the raids that intimidate me, since people like me are so reviled on the forums in this raid and a handful of others. By people like me I mean I dont have the best gear in the game (I havent run this level of content ever), and I dont know exactly what I am doing or where I am going. I dont know the nicknames for things by sight and location and I dont touch things unless I know what they are. Ok, that last part isnt so bad.

    Its going to take some work, but I am going to have to look hard to find a group that is actually willing to teach me the raid. It's not that I want to be the point man my first run (or three), but I'm going to need to have someone explain to me as we go WHY certain things are being done. Reading a walkthrough in the forums is one thing, doing it in game is another.
    Here's the thing; most raid leaders don't mind if you are new as long as you say so from the beginning. That way they know what to expect, and they know to take the time to explain things.

    This isn't about that though. You would know as a new to Shroud person that it would probably not be in your best interest to join a speed run your first couple of times out.

  19. #19
    Community Member flaggson's Avatar
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    I somehow didn't expect this kind of post from you axer.. but I have to say I'm impressed I'm in 100% agreement with you...
    Infynity, Flaggson, Grazzit, Liryc
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  20. #20
    Community Member Crusad's Avatar
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    Seems to me like all this would be solved, if people would start recalling at 5% or /death at 1%. Recalling might be a problem if both healers would do it :-)
    Khyber - Cobryn, Calvyr, Panrry, Metroplex, Rakosniczek

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