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  1. #41
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Current contemplating a 12Ranger/6barb/2fighter similiar to Blitz. Less haste boost, attack, and stun dc for manyshot, improved precise shot, not being bothered with powersurges, and ability to use picks on trash and khopeshes on bosses without Kensai weapon bonus loss.

  2. #42
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    Your chart is claiming Monster higher than Blizt? That doesn't seem right.

  3. #43
    Community Member zealous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Star View Post
    While virtually impossible to calculate on a spreadsheet, the DPS/killing power, especially on trash, of a pure 20th dark monk ninja spy II strength based using Touch, of Death, Void 4 and wind stance 4 is very very high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Star View Post
    Again, many shot, especially with improved precise shot is virtually impossible to tabulate on a spreadsheet, but for those looking for massive DPS it bares mentioning.
    You can fairly easily tabulate the potential.

    For monk it's a matter of determining ki generation and then according to that optimal use of strikes.

    For many shot + imp.prec. it's merely multiplying regular damage by 4 for manyshot and further by 1-alot for imp.prec.

    Granted, consistently achieving optimal strike usage is somewhat more demanding than remembering to refresh a rage or using a haste boost.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveohio View Post
    Do you have some sort of spreadsheet you are using to plug in the different variables/classes/items/feats/etc and if so would it be possible for me to take a look at it for my own personal use/and or fleshing out some of the other builds I have rolling around in my head.
    I do use an Excel spreadsheet but it's mostly so that I don't have to do the calculations by hand. It's not particularly annotated or "user-friendly" though, but just to make the computations less repetitive, and so I can copy-paste the formulae to have it calculate the DPS for different build configurations simultaneously. So likely it won't be released unless I get it into a more readily understandable format.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveohio View Post
    Such as a 12X/7rogue/1x variations, as these have been missed out, but present a nice breakpoint for maximizing sneak attack while using the higher bab/hp/str classes.

    12ftr/7rogue/1x
    12ranger/7rogue/1x
    Well the DPS figures will end up fairly similar, so I think it's more important to focus on what other aspects the different classes will bring to the table. Remember that for the most part the DPS differences between the builds are only around 5-10%, which is very minor compared with other DPS-influencing factors such as level of gear, player aggression (more aggressive = more willing to jump in and DPS, but also higher risk of getting overwhelmed and dying; a good player will learn when to be aggressive and when to hold back, while a newer player will either tend to play it safe and hence lose DPS, or jump in and die and have 0 DPS), party composition, amount of buffs available, etc. In this case, the fighter/rogue is actually pretty good in terms of DPS if you are looking primarily for DPS and not other group roles like hate tank or stunner, etc. For example, the Blizt build uses the barbarian levels for extra strength to have better stunning. Being able to stun and create an auto-crit situation at-will (rather than relying on a nearby caster) is a DPS increase that is not easily modelled in a spreadsheet.

    The numbers for the rogue version compared with the other fighter variants are:

    Code:
    Trash	DevNorm	DevElit	A-Crit	Str	+Damage	+Sneak	Build
    531.3	368.9	363.5	1017.4	57	60	8	TWF Fighter
    535.0	383.5	382.2	1049.9	67	66	14.5	12 Fi / 6 Ba / 2 Ro (Archon, Blizt)
    557.4	394.2	392.9	1120.1	59	68	14.5	12 Fi / 6 Ra / 2 Ro (Monster-like) (favored)
    526.8	368.1	366.8	1055.5	59	62	14.5	12 Fi / 6 Ra / 2 Ro (Monster-like) (no favored)
    559.1	376.0	374.7	1051.1	57	60	34.5	12 Fi / 7 Ro / 1 Ba
    The rogue variant does end up with the best trash DPS, about par with Monster versus favored enemies (and of course, not have non-favored enemies to worry about). In other respects it is somewhat similar to the Archon/Blizt in terms of DPS. However, it lacks the higher strength, getting the DPS from additional sneak attack damage instead. This means a lower to-hit, and also means less stunning capability. Going rogue also means less HP, although with enough rogue levels (I haven't worked out skill points) you might take this as going the traps route rather than the stun route.

    So the DPS profiles are fairly similar, with the rogue having a slight advantage (~5%) vs trash. If you are looking at this build, you would have to consider what does this build offer over the other variants (ranger or barbarian, or also paladin or monk), and whether or not it's worthwhile to give up what the other variants give. For example, the Blizt gives additional stunning and to-hit due to its higher strength, both of which are important in epics. The Monster gives more attacks from the tempest splash (hence topping the auto-crit chart) and more versatility (manyshot, loyal dog on command, etc.). You would have to balance the gains from going rogue with the tradeoffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveohio View Post
    Based on these charts, my personal intuition tells me that the actual best case, highest dps build would probably be a half orc dark monk/rogue combination of some kind with past life monk in there. Due to the high str, offhand str bonus, increased attack speed, 1bab/lvl for monk fists, coupled with great sneak dice, and potentially touch of death.

    Obviously monks are the hardest class to determine actual dps numbers do to the variety of strikes, how often they are used, which are used, what stance your in, etc. However vs 0% fort mobs, the high sneak + offhand str + higher attack speed will more than likely win out. And is often why many rogues splash monk and go fists.
    Monks benefit most from attack speed bonuses, so the two classes that have attack speed bonuses (fighter and rogue) mesh well with monks. Monks are also good at high-fort targets (or I should say, the handwraps critical profile sucks anyway, so they don't gain much from 0% fort), while rogues are good at low-fort targets, so monk/rogues tend to have pretty good DPS against all targets (and of course, rogue sneak attack works well with unarmed attack speed). So this is why monk/fighter and monk/rogue combinations are pretty popular to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    What are you using for DPS calcualations? Your numbers are VERY close to what I see in AO's calc, you using that?
    I'm using my own calculations based on what I understand about the game mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    What weapon are you using in the THF calcs? I'm asking because the numbers are higher than I get on Greensteel and lower than ESoS using AO's calc. The TWFing numbers are the same though.
    I'm using the ESoS for all cases except the hard/elite devils case (in which case it's Min2 Greataxe for barb, Min2 Greatsword for Fighter). I pick whichever has higher DPS, twitch or standing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Star View Post
    While virtually impossible to calculate on a spreadsheet, the DPS/killing power, especially on trash, of a pure 20th dark monk ninja spy II strength based using Touch, of Death, Void 4 and wind stance 4 is very very high.

    I just capped a Helves Angel build (12ftr/6rng/2monk with Arcane Archer) and the DPS it produces with an epic Thornlord, 500 damage slayer arrows, human versatility 5 damage, pali past life feat, haste boost 4's +30% attack speed, improved precise shot and many shot is by far the single highest burst DPS of any character I have ever played. Again, many shot, especially with improved precise shot is virtually impossible to tabulate on a spreadsheet, but for those looking for massive DPS it bares mentioning.

    The trash calculations above focus on a single target (hard to do side by side comparisons any other way), but with mass hold ever present in epics the ability to take out an entire room of held epic mobs in 20 seconds by oneself is the kind of unquantifiable DPS unfortunately a spreadsheet misses.

    For more traditional classes, what "feel" like the highest DPS characters (in addition to the two above) based on experience of running all kinds of builds are a pick wielding pure rogue and an epic SoS using barb, both HO of course.
    Well I wouldn't particularly recommend ranged builds for a newcomer, since I think ranged requires a certain amount of game experience in understanding monster behavior, lining up targets, etc. Manyshot is nice but the build also has to be doing something for the other 100 seconds, so it should make sure it can back up that aggro with sufficient melee DPS/HP once manyshot ends, for any remaining mobs.

    I think barbarians are pretty good for the leader aggressive types, while rogues are pretty good for the flanking, follower types. A barbarian's high HP allows the player to be very aggressive, and still be doing DPS through thick and thin, and gives a nice robust margin of safety for the newer player. So it is very useful both when a player is still learning the game and when a player is trying to be "max DPS". Rogues are among the most fragile melee DPS classes; however, if the new player is content to just follow the melee ball around, then what rogues do is pretty suitable in terms of still contributing to the party. A rogue (or rogue hybrid), however, is expected to know and be able to disable traps, which may not be very suitable for a new player.

    Quote Originally Posted by nick_robinsonchia View Post
    Really interesting charts Van. One thing I think that needs mentioning in epic dps comparisons tho I think makes things much harder to measure is too hit.

    A massive too hit is very important to me these days and is something I plan around as having to take off PA is a waste of dps and some of these splits are naturally alot lower in too hit than others. Assuming everything is hit on a 1 used to be the norm but it simply isnt the case anymore. Alot of players will say 'oh I only miss on a 1!!!' but that tends to not be the case especially in the harder epics and if not running with a bard. I dont know how you could calculate it but given similar gear you could easily work out the too hit of each build. Obviously it wont matter in the autocrit situation. Maybe something you wish to explore.

    N

    Edit 1: Also most people consider the 'monster' to include the two monk even tho the 2 rog is much better end game for more dps. You have labelled it clearly just would be interesting to see the 2 monk variant up there as well. Great work +1.

    Edit 2: Also in the examples given are the 2HF standing still for the non autocrit situations or twitching? Auto crit i assume you are using twitching attack speed.
    Yes, to-hit is a pretty big consideration for the endgame (i.e. epics). However, if you are just tackling general content, it may not be as large of an issue. So it depends on the type of content that the player is doing. For epics though, to-hit becomes a big consideration, which current DPS calcs don't really factor in (since they assume you always hit on a roll of 2 or higher). This is why rogues and sneak attack-dependent builds tend to be favored by the spreadsheets, because that assumption covers up this weakness of rogues (and to a lesser extent, rangers). Fighters have kensei power surge and kensei bonuses for their to-hit, and barbarians have rage and frenzy/death frenzy for their to-hit, but rangers and rogues have relatively few ways to increase their to-hit. Obviously getting both kensei power surge and barbarian rage is a potent combination for this. But it will depend on the type of content that the player is doing; last I recall, my rogue/ranger was still able to hit on a roll of 2 in elite Shroud, so content up to about there it's not a big issue. But it does become one for epics.

    Eventually I do want to do trash-epic DPS calculations, but I'll likely be testing some epic trash AC prior to that. Different epics will have different AC values. Also I did factor in AC in some of my previous calculations (though not for this DPS comparison), including factoring in the additional to-hit on the 3rd and 4th attack swing animation, etc. In-game experience is a lot more varied, though; for example, it seems like a boss that has 50% fort also means that you don't get your sneak attack to-hit bonus 50% of the time, and that is a separate roll than whether or not that attack gets a crit or a sneak attack. I'm also not quite sure how flanking affects things (one may think the issue is simple, but I'm still trying to figure out why I randomly lose 8 to-hit vs Horoth's back when I have sneak attack accuracy 3 (for 3 sneak to-hit), Tharne's goggles (for 5 sneak to-hit), and flanking because I'm at his back for another 2 flanking to-hit). I'm still looking into how the attack roll mechanics work though, so easier to just assume everyone hits on a 2 for now.

    Somewhere along the line though I want to introduce different DPS measures. For the more general player, it would be something like {trash (0% fort, 0 DR, no resistances), normal devil (50% fort, 15 DR, devil resistances), construct (100% fort, 10 DR unbypassable, elemental immunities)}, since that fits more with what the general player would encounter (i.e. going up to Shroud farming). Then for the powergamer, it would be something like {epic trash (0% fort, 0 DR, no resistances, high AC), hard devil (50% fort, must bypass DR, devil resistances), auto-crit (0% fort, 0 DR, no resistances, always crit)} since those are the situations most likely encountered in endgame content (higher-difficulty raids, epics). I think comparing builds in this way would give a better idea of where each build excels; more introductory players may prefer better "all-around" general DPS, while powergamers may prefer to know how builds will perform in difficult content where to-hit cannot be assumed and good auto-crit DPS is preferable. But that's still a ways off, since I think there's still quite a bit of preliminary work before I get to that.

    Yes although the Monster is more commonly /2 monk, I did the DPS calcs with /2 rogue, because otherwise there would be two wasted levels (i.e. basically a level 18 build). The difference is fairly minor; about 23 DPS for the 0% fort case and about 12 DPS for the 50% fort case. But that's assuming that the 2 monk levels provide nothing at all.

    In the THF situations I was using whichever gave better DPS. For auto-crit THF is twitching, and it varied for the other situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by timetorun177 View Post
    Your chart is claiming Monster higher than Blizt? That doesn't seem right.
    Well my chart is assuming first lives; the Blizt build benefits more from past lives and is set up with that as an assumption. Also, the tempest splash is no slouch post-Update 5; the tempest 1 10% offhand proc is still around 5% more DPS. It also benefits from ram's might (3% increase), and then potentially favored enemy (6% increase). Compare this with the 6 barb splash, which is around a 10% increase in DPS. These are for the 0% fort case by the way.

  5. #45
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    I'm using the ESoS for all cases except the hard/elite devils case (in which case it's Min2 Greataxe for barb, Min2 Greatsword for Fighter). I pick whichever has higher DPS, twitch or standing.
    As a base line for me to compare to AO's calc, how many swings a minute are you using for a THF barb with no haste boost? Twitch.

  6. #46
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Nevermind found your post . . . http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144

    Hasted you have THF-twitch at about 119 attacks/minute with the AO calc is 129

    The TWFing number you have hasted is 102.2 while AO's calc is 105.53, still larger but not as big of a difference.

    I had suspected the DPS number touted from AOs calc were inflated, and not just from the fact that people include every piece of ubber-gear in existence in the calc.

  7. #47
    Founder Sani_Medicor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick_robinsonchia View Post
    A massive too hit is very important to me these days and is something I plan around as having to take off PA is a waste of dps and some of these splits are naturally alot lower in too hit than others.
    I was a solo pk on ultima online before coming here and always built my characters around attack instead of damage. I always figured weapon properties would take care of the damage, if I could hit on every swing. There were plenty of times when my opponent and myself were both low on hitpoints and I just kept attacking for the kill, instead of stopping to heal. I still use the same strategy against monsters when I'm soloing.
    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    I'm saying that because he's got a War Chanter bard in his calc. Take away the bard and yes, I agree with you.
    I have no idea how to run the numbers, but I'd be curious to see my Beefcake build (12brd/6ftr/2rog warchanter kensai) self-buffed vs the others not buffed.
    Last edited by Sani_Medicor; 01-27-2011 at 02:55 AM.

  8. #48
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Vanshilar, while reading the other DPS thread, I wondered which weapons you consider in the Autocrit situations.
    Picks (Maiming? Rockspitter/Deathnip?) for TWF and eSoS for THF?
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  9. #49
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    uh, if we are talking about dps a twf pure pally KotC can beat almost every build against a evil outsider

  10. #50
    Community Member lhidda's Avatar
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    twf finesse! pure rogue halfling assassin

    PS: I love to provocate ;D
    Last edited by lhidda; 07-20-2011 at 05:10 AM.

  11. #51
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    What about a TWF strength based Rogue assassin? With stunning, greater cleave, IC blugeon, etc, using the CitW Rapier in off hand and CitW hammer in main hand?

  12. #52
    Community Member Dieterstrife's Avatar
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    Default Arise young thread, arise!!!

    Yay thread necro.

    Also it'd probably be close, but even back then Monster supposedly did more dps than a pure rogue and all were using the same weapons (min2 khopeshes) and I can't imagine it changed a whole lot.
    De'Corenai of Argonessen. If you've seen me, you know what I'm talking about.

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