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  1. #21

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    Very nice, Mr. Cow!

    Now, you said those attributes don't work, is it fair to assume Crippling Strike also won't work? Because apparently they aren't actually debuffs, but rather direct stat damage, right?

    Thanks for this compilation, very nice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    I will test this tonight. I will load up every debuff I can find to bring him to auto-crit if possible.
    Thanks Trillea,

    I would love to know if the Symbol of Weakness does work on him, as it would add another dimension to my Cleric in the Shroud (where to be honest i tended to feel like a Healbot at best). I'm currently TRing and so won't hit shroud for a few more weeks (hopefully).

    Please let me/us know if this works

    Regards
    Wolf

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    [COLOR="Wheat"]Ray of Enfeeblement (STR Penalty [1 to 13 depending on random factors and source of the ray])
    Ray of Exhaustion/Waves of Fatigue/Waves of Exhaustion (STR Penalty [-2 to -6] and DEX Penalty [-2 to -6])
    Strength Sapping (STR Penalty [-6] and DEX penalty [-6])
    Symbol of Weakness (STR Penalty [-3 to -18 depending on dice rolls])

    Attribute damage, such as from sources like Weakening, Bone Breaking, and Wraith Constitution Drain are not counted for the purposes of causing a boss to be made helpless from attribute loss.
    Call me thick but off the top of my head I dont see the difference. Isn't everything you mentioned that works attribute damage too. Maybe I need to get down off the top of my head but please can you explain to me how to tell the difference? ie do enfeebling weapons work?

    Also am I to understand constitution damage from wops dont work? I have been told these are completely useless now.
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  4. #24
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkromaAoW
    Cow, did you check with the powers that be before posting this? I would like to believe that this is by design, but at first glance, it feels like an oversight and something that wouldn't be intended.
    I did not directly ask, but knowledge of this technique has been know for many years without having said threads shut down. Also, if this was not working as intended then "Strength Damage Ward" and "Dexterity Damage Ward" would have been set to apply to attribute damage and attribute penalties, instead of just attribute damage when that feature was added many moons ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeldur
    Now, you said those attributes don't work, is it fair to assume Crippling Strike also won't work?
    Correct, Crippling Strike causes attribute damage which does not count towards making a boss helpless.
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  5. #25
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joneb1999
    Isn't everything you mentioned that works attribute damage too.
    The things mentioned are Attribute Penalties, which follow a variation of the rules that Attribute Damage does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    While Symbol of Weakness isn't inhibited by boss status (orange-named, red-named, purple-named, etc.), there are currently not enough strength penalties in the game to cause Arreatrikos to go helpless. Between Exhaustion (Waves of Exhaustion) and Symbol of Strength you can only deal up to 24 points of STR penalty, which doesn't quite do it. When epic was released raid bosses were made immune to Ray of Enfeeblement and Strength Sapping, probably to prevent situations like making Queen Lailat helpless.
    Hi MrCow,

    Sorry for my lack of knowledge. I assumed that if you hit them multiple times they took an additional hit each time and their strength kept dropping?

    I guess from what your saying that is not the case and multiple SOW do not stack?

    Regards
    Wolf

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    Community Member Astraghal's Avatar
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    Great thread +1.

  8. #28
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    As for the stat-damaging weapons, I was under the impression that they do work, but only up to 10 points. That is when you start getting a symbol above the bosses' head and a message in the examine window that says that it cannot receive any more of the stat damage. Are you saying that this stat damage won't stack with the debuffs and it takes the higher number of the 2?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyfruit View Post
    Yup yup. Some bosses switch to purple named tho

    I swear I get "Immune" messages when try my Weakening of Enfeebling weapons, I'll try them again.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea
    As for the stat-damaging weapons, I was under the impression that they do work, but only up to 10 points. That is when you start getting a symbol above the bosses' head and a message in the examine window that says that it cannot receive any more of the stat damage. Are you saying that this stat damage won't stack with the debuffs and it takes the higher number of the 2?
    Attribute damage can go up to 10 points per stat on a Red-Named monster and it does count, but only up to a point where none of that attribute damage leads the monster to being made helpless. Here is an example using Vidian (Normal Difficulty, 16 STR).

    Code:
    Action Taken		Current STR	Attr Penalty	Attr Damage
    None			16		0		0	
    Waves of Exhaustion	10		6		0	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	9		6		1	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	8		6		2	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	7		6		3	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	6		6		4	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	5		6		5	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	4		6		6	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	3		6		7	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	2		6		8	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	1		6		9	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	1		6		10	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	1		6		10	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	1		6		10	
    Weakening Weapon Hit	1		6		10	
    Ray of Enfeeblement (7)	1		13		10	
    Ray of Enfeeblement (6)	1		13		10	
    Ray of Enfeeblement (9)	1		15		10	
    Ray of Enfeeblement (11)0		17		10
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  11. #31
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joneb1999 View Post
    Call me thick but off the top of my head I dont see the difference. Isn't everything you mentioned that works attribute damage too. Maybe I need to get down off the top of my head but please can you explain to me how to tell the difference? ie do enfeebling weapons work?

    Also am I to understand constitution damage from wops dont work? I have been told these are completely useless now.


    Statistic "damage": The attribute is reduced by a certain number per hit or on a critical hit. The attribute is regenerated only via 'stat damage healing' like lesser/normal restoration, etc.

    Statistic "penalty:: Symbol of weakness/ray of enfeeblement. These effects function more like curse (eg they negatively modify the trait). Some of them are removed by effects that cure stat damage, but their behavior is different: They are always completely removed by this effect. EG, if you have 12 strength damage and use a lesser restoration pot, for 4 healing, you will then have 8 strength damage. But if you have a 13 pt str penalty from enfeeblement and get that lesser restore, the debuff simply vanishes.

    "Statuses" with associated penalties: Fatigue (-2/-2) and exhaustion (-6/-6, and not stacking). These function as an inherent status effect that can be granted by a variety of spells or effects (eg, rage wearing off causes you to become fatigued, which has a definition of being -2/-2). In many cases, these statuses are also cured by many things which remove statistic damage, which is again a factor of a separate property of those effects.

    These three things are fundamentally different mechanically, and the differences are relevant for the two below reasons.

    1: By coded bypass, statistic damage on a red named monster can never exceed -10 to the statistic, nor move the monster below 1 in a given statistic. If a monster has 10 strength and is exhausted, all strength damage beyond 3 will be ignored. If the monster is then fatigued, nothing will change because 2 more of the damage will be ignored. This is why Cow says that statistic damage cannot render these monsters helpless. It is intentionally disregarded, because it is unlimited: Outside of being cured, you can give something 100 strength damage if you hit it enough and want to.

    2: Epic monsters have a set X% chance to negate statistic damage dealt to them. This, again, applies only to statistic damage. Hitting any epic monster with waves of exhaustion does not provide it with the opportunity to ignore some or all of the -6 strength and dexterity associated with the condition, nor can the mob ignore the exhaustion effect unless it has a normal ability to do so (eg spell resistance, or immunity to exhaustion ala warforged).

    Both status effects and penalty effects can be used freely on epic and red named monsters w/o any reduction in their effectiveness. Some of these effects do not work on purple named foes (like ray of enfeeblement).

    Note that a level 1 spell is in fact the most potent source of unavoidable, stacking str penalty (ray of enfeeb) and it used to be the best lv 1 spell in the game when it worked on raid bosses.

    Also note that "helpless" monsters are not incapacitated like helpless players. They can still move and physically attack. They lose the ability to use any magical abilities whatsoever, and retain the autocrit trait, however. That makes it particularly potent against foes like beholders and mindflayers who completely lack any physical attacks. Making a mob like Bolal helpless from strength will do nothing but make him stop using stunning blow (and reduce his hit and damgae, of course). Making Dariel helpless in the same quest will make her do absolutely nothing, because her AI is all spellcasting.

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    Wow, Thanks Junts, MrCow

    I will have to re-read that a few times after a few hours sleep :-)

    Damn sorry rewriting this each time I read.

    A simpler view for my limited Cleric brain is that:

    Throwing Symbol of Weakness on a normal Mob OR Red named boss with 18 or less STR may (depending on rolls) make them helpless but this will not make them "Drop"

    Throwing Symbol of Weakness on any MOB OR Red named with a STR higher than 18 will reduce their melee capacity but will not make them helpless

    Throwing SOW on a Purple named may or not have any effect.

    Throwing SOW repeatedly will not stack but may (through a better roll) improve the above mentioned effect.

    Do I have that right?

    Regards
    Wolf
    Last edited by The-Last-Wolf; 01-16-2011 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Sorry reread and changed

  13. #33
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    Hezrou from Epic Into the Deep. Not sure what his DEX is but if you exhuast and strength sap hes auto crit. Thought id throw that little tidbit into your guide.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    .
    1: By coded bypass, statistic damage on a red named monster can never exceed -10 to the statistic, nor move the monster below 1 in a given statistic. If a monster has 10 strength and is exhausted, all strength damage beyond 3 will be ignored. If the monster is then fatigued, nothing will change because 2 more of the damage will be ignored. This is why Cow says that statistic damage cannot render these monsters helpless. It is intentionally disregarded, because it is unlimited: Outside of being cured, you can give something 100 strength damage if you hit it enough and want to.
    Ok Im getting there. Thanks for the explanation. However in the above mentioned point you made treat me like an 8 year old. LoL
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Last-Wolf
    A simpler view for my limited Cleric brain is that:

    Throwing Symbol of Weakness on a normal Mob with 18 or less STR may (depending on rolls) make them helpless.

    Throwing Symbol of Weakness on any MOB with a STR higher than 18 will reduce their melee capacity but will not make them helpless

    X Throwing SOW on a Red named with any STR will not make them helpless but will reduce their melee capacity
    Symbol of Weakness can cause any critter to go helpless if they are reduced to 0 STR.

    Throwing SOW repeatedly will not stack but may (through a better roll) improve the above mentioned effect.

    Do I have that right?
    Most of it is right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    Most of it is right.
    Sorry I edited while you were posting

    Throwing Symbol of Weakness on a normal Mob OR Red named boss with 18 or less STR may (depending on rolls) make them helpless but this will not make them "Drop"

    Throwing Symbol of Weakness on any MOB OR Red named with a STR higher than 18 will reduce their melee capacity but will not make them helpless

    Throwing SOW on a Purple named may or not have any effect.

    Throwing SOW repeatedly will not stack but may (through a better roll) improve the above mentioned effect.

    Regards
    Wolf

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by joneb1999 View Post
    Ok Im getting there. Thanks for the explanation. However in the above mentioned point you made treat me like an 8 year old. LoL
    Sorry i was trying to clarify the mechanism not just for you but for the other people in the thread who didn't seem entirely clear on the mechanics of how stat damage interacts with this stuff, though Cow beat me to posting it when I was writing the longer post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Sorry i was trying to clarify the mechanism not just for you but for the other people in the thread who didn't seem entirely clear on the mechanics of how stat damage interacts with this stuff, though Cow beat me to posting it when I was writing the longer post.
    I really mean please explain it to me as if Im an 8 year old as I still don't understand that one bit. Shamefully

    During math my teacher asked me if I had an apple in one hand and two bananas in the other what would I have altogether? I said my lunch but I dont always eat the apple.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by joneb1999 View Post
    I really mean please explain it to me as if Im an 8 year old as I still don't understand that one bit. Shamefully

    During math my teacher asked me if I had an apple in one hand and two bananas in the other what would I have altogether? I said my lunch but I dont always eat the apple.

    OK.

    Stat damage is unlimited in total: if you do 2 pts of str damage per hit, and something has 70 str, you can eventually get it to zero. This is different from stuff like ray of enfeeblement or exhaustion, which are just -x and can't be repetitively applied (even though some are random, like enfeeblement, it can never be more than -13).

    Because of this, bosses were always immune to stat damage entirely. About a year and a half ago, the developers changed it so that stat damage could be applied to bosses in a limited fashion, one that's designed to let it be used to debuff the boss without making the boss trivial or unable to act.

    The way they did this is to allow bosses to recieve up to 10 pts of statistic damage. After that point, they gain 'stat damage ward' and cannot take any more damage. This is indicated by a red shield that flashes over their head, which you probably see frequently when rogues are hitting things, due to crippling strike.

    However, as you can see in this thread, few things have more than 20 strength or dex, and none have as much as 30. Since there are already some significant debuffs, especially to strength, adding another 10 would let you stack them to get pretty much anything to zero, even if the damage component capped at 10. (10 stat damage, 13 enfeeble, 6 exhaustion alone is -29 strength, enough to zero out nearly anything in the game).

    To avoid this, they explicitly gave red named bosses (not orange, who can be taken to zero, or purple, who are still stat-damage immune, though other debuffs apply) a trait which causes stat damage to be unable to bring them below 1 in a statistic. Even if you haven't hit the 10 pt threshold (say, with a monster that has a strength of 8), it is impossible for stat damage alone, or in fact stat damage in concert with any other penalty to get a red-named boss monster to zero in a statistic. Any statistic damage that would, in sum, lower them past 1 is ignored, and the damage is always applied last.

    To use our monster with 10 strength again as an example, imagine you hit it with a weakening weapon and gave it -10 strength. It would still have 1, because it ignores your final 1 point, though the first 9 work.

    You then exhaust the monster. Now the exhaustion applies first, bringing it to 4 strength, and then the first 3 damage brings it to 1 strength, and the last 7 is ignored instead of the last 1.

    Now imagine you hit the monster with Ray of Enfeeblement for -8 strength.

    Now the enfeeblement and the exhaustion combine for -14 strength, which brings the foe to 0. Since neither is a stat damage effect (but rather a penalty), it is able to bring that foe to 0. However, the statistic damage can never act either in concert with or independently to get the boss to zero. It serves exclusively as an indirect way to debuff - a monster with -10 strength gets -5 to hit, deals 5 less damage. Giving it -dexterity lowers its armor class. This lets you use statistic damage for the purposes of making the boss easy, but not the purpose of making the boss unable to function.

    Purple-named raid bosses ignore all stat damage entirely, so they cannot even be debuffed in this way. Again, the penalty and status effects still work (like exhaustion and enfeeblement), and if any raid boss had a low enough statistic to reach 0 from them, they would be incapacitated. However, raid bosses generally have very generous statistics, which is why they also require very high armor classes and melee for considerable damage per swing. Their dexterities are much lower, but there's few non-damage ways to reduce dexterity, so its not possible to bring them to 0 dex either.

    Keep in midn that the 'min of 1 vs stat damage' only works for red nameds: regular monsters, and orange-named minibosses can be brought to 0 with stat damage.

    The reason this thread exists and is relevant is because, due to statistic damage not working, you must be more creative in order to get a red-named foe to 0 strength: You can't simply kieep hitting it with a stat damage effect until it gets there. An orange named boss with 120 strength could be brought to 0 via stat damage eventually, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    OK.

    Stat damage is unlimited in total: if you do 2 pts of str damage per hit, and something has 70 str, you can eventually get it to zero. This is different from stuff like ray of enfeeblement or exhaustion, which are just -x and can't be repetitively applied (even though some are random, like enfeeblement, it can never be more than -13).

    Because of this, bosses were always immune to stat damage entirely. About a year and a half ago, the developers changed it so that stat damage could be applied to bosses in a limited fashion, one that's designed to let it be used to debuff the boss without making the boss trivial or unable to act.

    The way they did this is to allow bosses to recieve up to 10 pts of statistic damage. After that point, they gain 'stat damage ward' and cannot take any more damage. This is indicated by a red shield that flashes over their head, which you probably see frequently when rogues are hitting things, due to crippling strike.

    However, as you can see in this thread, few things have more than 20 strength or dex, and none have as much as 30. Since there are already some significant debuffs, especially to strength, adding another 10 would let you stack them to get pretty much anything to zero, even if the damage component capped at 10. (10 stat damage, 13 enfeeble, 6 exhaustion alone is -29 strength, enough to zero out nearly anything in the game).

    To avoid this, they explicitly gave red named bosses (not orange, who can be taken to zero, or purple, who are still stat-damage immune, though other debuffs apply) a trait which causes stat damage to be unable to bring them below 1 in a statistic. Even if you haven't hit the 10 pt threshold (say, with a monster that has a strength of 8), it is impossible for stat damage alone, or in fact stat damage in concert with any other penalty to get a red-named boss monster to zero in a statistic. Any statistic damage that would, in sum, lower them past 1 is ignored, and the damage is always applied last.

    To use our monster with 10 strength again as an example, imagine you hit it with a weakening weapon and gave it -10 strength. It would still have 1, because it ignores your final 1 point, though the first 9 work.

    You then exhaust the monster. Now the exhaustion applies first, bringing it to 4 strength, and then the first 3 damage brings it to 1 strength, and the last 7 is ignored instead of the last 1.

    Now imagine you hit the monster with Ray of Enfeeblement for -8 strength.

    Now the enfeeblement and the exhaustion combine for -14 strength, which brings the foe to 0. Since neither is a stat damage effect (but rather a penalty), it is able to bring that foe to 0. However, the statistic damage can never act either in concert with or independently to get the boss to zero. It serves exclusively as an indirect way to debuff - a monster with -10 strength gets -5 to hit, deals 5 less damage. Giving it -dexterity lowers its armor class. This lets you use statistic damage for the purposes of making the boss easy, but not the purpose of making the boss unable to function.

    Purple-named raid bosses ignore all stat damage entirely, so they cannot even be debuffed in this way. Again, the penalty and status effects still work (like exhaustion and enfeeblement), and if any raid boss had a low enough statistic to reach 0 from them, they would be incapacitated. However, raid bosses generally have very generous statistics, which is why they also require very high armor classes and melee for considerable damage per swing. Their dexterities are much lower, but there's few non-damage ways to reduce dexterity, so its not possible to bring them to 0 dex either.

    Keep in midn that the 'min of 1 vs stat damage' only works for red nameds: regular monsters, and orange-named minibosses can be brought to 0 with stat damage.

    The reason this thread exists and is relevant is because, due to statistic damage not working, you must be more creative in order to get a red-named foe to 0 strength: You can't simply kieep hitting it with a stat damage effect until it gets there. An orange named boss with 120 strength could be brought to 0 via stat damage eventually, after all.
    Thanks much dude. I get it. <Drums roll. Flags go up. Bagpipes play a jaunty little tune.>
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