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  1. #1
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Default Boss Attribute Helplessness Points

    ** Helplessness was changed in Update 11 and in the process made this thread null and void. **

    ** What is stated in this thread no longer applies to the current state of DDO. **

    Bosses in DDO (aka, red-named monsters), contrary to the popular belief of some, can be made helpless when one of their attributes reaches 0. Depending on the Hit Points of the monster it can be a huge boon to make them helpless as they stop using spells and every physical strike that hits them is an automatic critical hit.

    There are a few tools that players have at their disposal to cause a boss to become helpless via attribute penalties. These include:
    Ray of Enfeeblement (STR Penalty [1 to 13 depending on random factors and source of the ray])
    Ray of Exhaustion/Waves of Fatigue/Waves of Exhaustion (STR Penalty [-2 to -6] and DEX Penalty [-2 to -6])
    Strength Sapping (STR Penalty [-6] and DEX penalty [-6])
    Symbol of Weakness (STR Penalty [-3 to -18 depending on dice rolls])

    Attribute damage, such as from sources like Weakening, Bone Breaking, and Wraith Constitution Drain are not counted for the purposes of causing a boss to be made helpless from attribute loss.



    Below are bosses or esoteric creatures that are prone to attribute helplessness. Unless specifically stated, the numbers below are assumed on normal difficulty and are close estimates.

    Strength Helplessness:
    Avatar of Cunning (19 STR: Epic) - An Offering of Blood
    Bolal (22 STR: Epic) - Partycrashers
    Control Crystal (1 STR) - Mining for Ancient Secrets
    Damsal in Distress (18 STR) - I Dream of Jeets
    Dariel (17 STR: Epic) - Partycrashers
    Desaga (22 STR) - Enter the Kobold
    Galamesh (10 STR) - I Dream of Jeets
    Groktin the Beholder (10 STR) - The Jungles of Khyber
    Hesstess (15 STR) - Eyes of Stone
    High Mage of the Depths (19 STR: Epic) - Into the Deep
    High Theurge Trassilyk (18 STR) - Acid Wit
    Ilos Hrolk (23 STR) - Diplomatic Impunity
    Iorrat (10 STR) - Dreams of Insanity
    Lobo the Bloody (13 STR) - Blockade Buster
    Kaboom (10 STR) - Undermine
    Karrnathi Apprentice (18 STR: Epic) - The Black Loch
    Khemko Sadanand (14 STR) - The Coalescence Chamber
    Kondo Solanum (17 STR) - The Shipwrecked Spy
    Malicia (18 STR) - Under the Big Top
    Manager (12 STR) - Bargain of Blood
    Mentau (15 STR) - Litany of the Dead
    Migdis (19 STR: Epic) - Partycrashers
    Minotaur Cabal Seer (18 STR) - Frame Work
    Orphne's Shadow (19 STR: Epic) - The Prisoner
    Palo-Turun (22 STR) - Rainbow in the Dark
    Ramak Orenah (14 STR) - Ritual Sacrifice
    Refined Cannith Crystal (1 STR) - The Stormreaver Fresco
    Sora Katra (18 STR) - Siegebreaker
    The Greed Monster (10 STR) - I Dream of Jeets
    Thorngak (19 STR) - Frame Work
    Usurper of Dreams (10 STR) - Reclaiming Memories
    Vidian (16 STR) - Sins of Attrition
    Watcher of Dreams (10 STR) - Eye of the Titan

    Dexterity Helplessness:
    Agni (9 DEX) - Stealer of Souls
    Ahraatz-Ri (10 DEX) - The Tides Turn
    Captain Micheal Tew (10 DEX) - The Tides Turn
    Demon of the Frenzied Blood (10 DEX) - Into the Deep
    General Tagherist (12 DEX) - Assault on Summerfield
    Ghol Khaz (10 DEX) - Blockade Buster
    Ghola-Fan (10 DEX) - Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!
    Gravnok (10 DEX) - The Captives
    Jala (9 DEX) - Stealer of Souls
    Kaljarne (9 DEX) - Prey on the Hunter
    Matador Chieftain (10 DEX) - Frame Work
    Roskilde (9 DEX) - Prey on the Hunter
    Slomnuc (8 DEX) - Fathom the Depths
    Last edited by MrCow; 09-21-2011 at 05:32 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Cow dagnabbit, you make some of the best threads!

    *goes to spread rep around so you can get what you deserve..*
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  3. #3
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    +1 rep...very informative...thx for taking the time.
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  4. #4
    Community Member karnokvolrath's Avatar
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    Cow strikes again, i can wait for complete list.

    Saved to favorite, with like 5 other threads of yours and linked to guildies.

    Awsome +1
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  5. #5
    Community Member EatSmart's Avatar
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    Very interesting reading, +1. Have you checked all debuffs you mention on all the bosses listed? Are some immune to some? (I was expecting the control crystal to be immune to the fatigue/exhastion effects for example)

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  6. #6
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatSmart
    Very interesting reading, +1. Have you checked all debuffs you mention on all the bosses listed? Are some immune to some? (I was expecting the control crystal to be immune to the fatigue/exhastion effects for example)
    For constructs with no Spell Resistance (aka, crystals) use Ray of Enfeeblement.
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  7. #7

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    Nice guide cow great work as always.
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  8. #8
    Community Member CHARNAME's Avatar
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    Holy cow! I just had my eyes opened. I had no idea this works!

    *runs off to buy a strength sapping weapon for each char*

    Great thread! Subscribed and +1.

  9. #9
    Community Member Crazyfruit's Avatar
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    Thanks MrCow! I only knew around 1/4 of these. I'm going to get a bit more use out of my barb's Staff of Arcane Power & Waves clicky now

    Know if some are worth using against orange named epic monsters? So far I've only tried MoBB against Sobrien, which isn't so bad while soloing.
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  10. #10
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Wait . . . this works in epics?

  11. #11
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    Attribute damage, such as from sources like Weakening, Bone Breaking, and Wraith Constitution Drain are not counted for the purposes of causing a boss to be made helpless from attribute loss.
    First off, thanks for making this.

    Second, can you elaborate on this point a bit? Will these properties *not* cause helplessness due to attribute loss? Or are you not counting them because Epic mobs are (mostly) immune to these weapon effects, and quick to recover from them?
    Last edited by TheDearLeader; 01-16-2011 at 04:32 PM.

  12. #12
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDearLeader
    Will these properties [like Weakening, Bone Breaking, and Wraith Constitution Drain] *not* cause helplessness do to attribute loss?
    This is the sentence that explains it properly.
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  13. #13
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Okay, thanks again ^^ And for making me re-read and realize I'd made a typo.

    So our no-save max is 13 from Ray of Enfeeblement + 6 Waves of Exhaustion = 19 Str Drained, yes?. I'd used this for the end boss of Eye of the Titan before, but hadn't really considered it anywhere else. And then another possible (but not necessarily reliable) 24 from Strength-Sapping and Symbol of Weakness? I would have thought that Strength-Sapping and WoE would not stack. And I say unreliable because we can't always expect the Symbol to max out. Probably more like 9-10 average strength damage on a failed save.

  14. #14
    Community Member Crazyfruit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    Wait . . . this works in epics?
    Yup yup. Some bosses switch to purple named tho
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  15. #15
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDearLeader
    I would have thought that Strength-Sapping and WoE would not stack.
    Whenever an effect is from a weapon effect or alternate ability don't always assume that they won't stack. Roaring is probably the most notable as the Shaken effect from Roaring stacks with Improved Roaring stacks with Fear: Shaken stacks with Roaring Guard (Lion-Headed Belt) stacks with Barbarian Intimidation. 5 forms of Shaken that all stack their effects. Exhaustion from spells and Strength Sapping are the same way, being slightly different enough effects that they actually stack.
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  16. #16
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    Hi MrCow,

    Thanks you for starting (and I hope) updating this thread.

    Any idea if Symbol of Weakness works on Arraetrikos?

    I did a Shroud on Normal a few months back and as we were well endowed with healing and good melees in Part 5 and I had SP to spare, I started throwing SOW at him just in case.

    He appeared to go helpless after a while and got taken down really quick after that.

    I have no idea if this was me or something else someone did (or just a glitch). Nobody else owned up to having done anything special (I may be being stupid and if there's a well known reason for this I apologise)

    I have not been in a position to restest this theory since.

    Regards
    Wolf
    Last edited by The-Last-Wolf; 01-16-2011 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Added quest difficulty after Dear Leader response below

  17. #17
    Community Member TheDearLeader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Last-Wolf View Post
    Hi MrCow,

    Thanks you for starting (and I hope) updating this thread.

    Any idea if Symbol of Weakness works on Arraetrikos?

    I did a Shroud a few months back and as we were well endowed with healing and good melees in Part 5 and I had SP to spare, I started throwing SOW at him just in case.

    He appeared to go helpless after a while and got taken down really quick after that.

    I have no idea if this was me or something else someone did (or just a glitch). Nobody else owned up to having done anything special (I may be being stupid and if there's a well known reason for this I apologise)

    I have not been in a position to restest this theory since.

    Regards
    Wolf
    He is supposedly an Arcane Caster, yes? What with the Meteor Swarms and DBFs. Perhaps his strength isn't so high on Normal.

  18. #18
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Last-Wolf View Post
    Hi MrCow,

    Thanks you for starting (and I hope) updating this thread.

    Any idea if Symbol of Weakness works on Arraetrikos?

    I did a Shroud a few months back and as we were well endowed with healing and good melees in Part 5 and I had SP to spare, I started throwing SOW at him just in case.

    He appeared to go helpless after a while and got taken down really quick after that.

    I have no idea if this was me or something else someone did (or just a glitch). Nobody else owned up to having done anything special (I may be being stupid and if there's a well known reason for this I apologise)

    I have not been in a position to restest this theory since.

    Regards
    Wolf
    I will test this tonight. I will load up every debuff I can find to bring him to auto-crit if possible.
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  19. #19
    Community Member AkromaAoW's Avatar
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    Default Oh!

    Cow, did you check with the powers that be before posting this? I would like to believe that this is by design, but at first glance, it feels like an oversight and something that wouldn't be intended.

    Cheers,

    E.
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  20. #20
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Last-Wolf
    Any idea if Symbol of Weakness works on Arraetrikos?
    While Symbol of Weakness isn't inhibited by boss status (orange-named, red-named, purple-named, etc.), there are currently not enough strength penalties in the game to cause Arreatrikos to go helpless. Between Exhaustion (Waves of Exhaustion) and Symbol of Strength you can only deal up to 24 points of STR penalty, which doesn't quite do it. When epic was released raid bosses were made immune to Ray of Enfeeblement and Strength Sapping, probably to prevent situations like making Queen Lailat helpless.
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