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  1. #161
    Community Member Itachi83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Glad to see that cleared up... Anyone else, I would have been sure they were joking, but I wasn't 100% certain with you...

    For some reason, I actually can believe that you think all wizard SP should be used hasting and raging you....
    Why do you absolutely HAVE to make seven thousand posts everytime you want to say something new.

    EDIT your posts good sir!

    I know this has nothing to do with the subject matter, but it is extremely annoying to me lol

  2. #162
    Community Member Morlen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morlen View Post
    Problem being as the barbarian you really should be holding agro the bulk of the quest... So... No sneak attack.
    A lot of people made the "You're not the only Melee/Barb" comment.

    I just want to point out that yes there are situations where you as a barbarian will still get sneak attack. Yes, I understand having some Tharne's Goggles for this point in time.

    The reason I made this post was because of the post saying to consider Half Elf as a top choice for Barbarian because of the extra sneak attack damage they are granted.

    The extra sneak attack will not make the best barbarian better because the best barbarian will be zerging ahead, smacking things over the head, and maintaining agro.

    C'mon, didn't you read the OP?
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  3. #163
    Community Member Thuriaz's Avatar
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    Wouldn't the best barb be killing things so fast that the term "Agro" would be a hypothetical condition where the enemy was alive long enough to fight back and therefore choose you as the most dangerous target?

  4. #164
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morlen View Post
    The reason I made this post was because of the post saying to consider Half Elf as a top choice for Barbarian because of the extra sneak attack damage they are granted.
    Hey I never said HElf was top choice

    I do think they're better than Dwarf though and probably WF too (immunities aside) if you're TWF...

  5. #165
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Post 2 updated:

    New section:
    #10. Defense matters.

    Here I go over the various defensive options for Barbarians.

  6. #166
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Uh...my experience has been that, especially on elite, anyone is fairly likely to die from a trap, including the barbarian, particularly since his Reflex save is generally too poor to ever make a successful save.

    So in your scenario, the barbarian goes ahead, springs the trap, and either dies outright, or probably gets killed when one of the monsters fires an arrow at him when he decides to run away. This is even more true early in the game when you likely don't have enough rages to be perma-raged through a quest (even MORE true if you don't know the quest, which you don't here, because if you did, you wouldn't have stumbled into the trap in the first place). And if you aren't raged, you aren't carrying around that much more HP than everyone else.

    Also, you're comparing a solidly built barbarian to a poorly built and played rogue, which is a necessarily biased presentation, but that is often the case when you are comparing anything with barbarians.

    Why your rogue is somehow taking more damage than your barbarian when fighting ogres similarly makes little sense. They'd both be taking the same amount, though the rogue is more likely to have a meaningful AC early in the game, whereas the barbarian probably doesn't, so the rogue is winning there. Then, the rogue has Evasion, which further reduces incoming damage. Finally, the rogue is actively working to avoid having aggro or killing things from stealth whereas the barbarian is simply soaking up damage and SP. If you want to argue that the barbarian is running backward swinging an axe, and that he'd be taking less damage, I'll merely point out how much people loath when archers do exactly that.


    Half Damage on a Barb = Fine. Full damage on a Barb = Hurt, but still alive. Save on a rogue = fine, but maybe a monster is around the corner waiting to squash him. Roll a 1 on a rogue = Rogues dead.
    Where is that monster waiting around the corner when the barbarian takes full damage from a trap that is somehow killing the rogue that took zero?

    If you're going to try and make a claim, at least make one based on a balanced example.
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  7. #167
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Uh...my experience has been that, especially on elite, anyone is fairly likely to die from a trap, including the barbarian, particularly since his Reflex save is generally too poor to ever make a successful save.
    Mmmm dunno what game your playing. I run through elite traps on every level on everyone of my Barbs. Cetainly don't make mots of my saves, and certainly don't die. There are some that kill me sure - VoN4 spikey trap lever, or any physical ones that does multiple hits.. But overall, a good HP barb can survive elite traps on a failed save I find.

    But let's say he did die in the trap (the barb)

    He tells the Rogue about the trap. Now the rogue knows to be extra careful and look for a trap box, in this case he wouldn't find it.

    But he would know to be careful in puling the monsters back before searching further. So it's still better that the Barbarian went in first. With some great skill he could reach the other end of the trpa and disable it, letting the party safely continue on.

    - Note this quest has no rez Shrine, so if the rogue died instead.. The trap is not getting disabled at all without a XP penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    So in your scenario, the barbarian goes ahead, springs the trap, and either dies outright, or probably gets killed when one of the monsters fires an arrow at him when he decides to run away. This is even more true early in the game when you likely don't have enough rages to be perma-raged through a quest (even MORE true if you don't know the quest, which you don't here, because if you did, you wouldn't have stumbled into the trap in the first place). And if you aren't raged, you aren't carrying around that much more HP than everyone else.
    mm following my guide he would of been perma raged up to that point. This is a extremely short quest. Should take no longer then 10min to reach that point even in the slowest of groups. Level8 barb will have about 12-20min of rage depending on gear and enhancement.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Also, you're comparing a solidly built barbarian to a poorly built and played rogue, which is a necessarily biased presentation, but that is often the case when you are comparing anything with barbarians.
    No sir. I made no notes about eithers build. But lets say there both using default turbine builds so they both have bad builds lol. Or if they both had really good builds, they'd make equally good scouts - the barb spots trap with his gut, and the rogue with his spot skill (tho actually lots of really good rogue builds dump wisdom remember...)
    Far as playstyle - I dunno I find most rogue scouts like to scout while stealthed, and barbs don't.. Other then that, theyre playstyle is identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Why your rogue is somehow taking more damage than your barbarian when fighting ogres similarly makes little sense.
    uummm actually it does. Barbarians = Damage reduction. Rogues don't get that.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    They'd both be taking the same amount, though the rogue is more likely to have a meaningful AC early in the game,
    The quest is on elite. These are new players. A new level8 rogue with meaningful AC in Grey Moon elite is impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    . If you want to argue that the barbarian is running backward swinging an axe, and that he'd be taking less damage, I'll merely point out how much people loath when archers do exactly that.
    It's a little different when a Barbarian does it. Because he kills the ogre in about 1-4 seconds, while the ranger takes 10-40.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Where is that monster waiting around the corner when the barbarian takes full damage from a trap that is somehow killing the rogue that took zero?
    Guess ya don't remember this quest. The ogres are a bit further down the bridge not directly in the begining trap. The rogue moves up closer to get a better look of whats ahead and triggers the trap, the ogre's aren't close enough to attack. Sure the ogre would get an arrow off, but they're arrows do little damage.
    Oh and the Rogue didn't take zero - he rolled a 1 and died in the trap remember?
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    If you're going to try and make a claim, at least make one based on a balanced example.
    It is balanced.

    Even if we changed it so the Rogue did the exact same thing and did not use stealth, the only difference would be the ogres might move a bit closer to the front of the traps, resulting the party getting even more surprised trying to get the Rogues soulstone.

    PS: This isn't a 100% theoretical scenario entirely. This has happened to me ingame several times. It's a real thing. I always try to base my examples on real ingame knowledge and experience.

    I will admit, I have wiped on that trap bridge in groups due to the exact same mistakes that party make in the example. In the future, I was sure to lead =)
    Last edited by Shade; 01-20-2011 at 06:48 AM.

  8. #168
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Mmmm dunno what game your playing. I run through elite traps on every level on everyone of my Barbs. Cetainly don't make mots of my saves, and certainly don't die. There are some that kill me sure - VoN4 spikey trap lever, or any physical ones that does multiple hits.. But overall, a good HP barb can survive elite traps on a failed save I find.
    Are we talking barbarians in general or your barbarians? There is a considerable difference in gear available, along with quest knowledge and such.

    But let's say he did die in the trap (the barb)

    He tells the Rogue about the trap. Now the rogue knows to be extra careful and look for a trap box, in this case he wouldn't find it.

    But he would know to be careful in puling the monsters back before searching further. So it's still better that the Barbarian went in first. With some great skill he could reach the other end of the trpa and disable it, letting the party safely continue on.
    That's reasonable, I suppose, but seems kind of silly to send in the heaviest hitter to possibly die in any traps when you have a rogue who may be able to notice traps coming up. Again, if you know the quest, no one should be scouting, and if you don't know the quest, you also probably don't know if the rogue can spot the traps or not.

    I'll agree that if you A) don't know the quest and B) know your rogue has poor trap skills then it may be an okay idea to send the barbarian ahead BUT I'd be more inclined to let the rogue who can't get traps scout ahead, as at least that way you aren't losing the barbarian powerhouse to a trap the rogue won't be able to get down anyway.

    - Note this quest has no rez Shrine, so if the rogue died instead.. The trap is not getting disabled at all without a XP penalty.
    My comments were directed in a more general sense, rather than specifically toward this particular quest.

    mm following my guide he would of been perma raged up to that point. This is a extremely short quest. Should take no longer then 10min to reach that point even in the slowest of groups. Level8 barb will have about 12-20min of rage depending on gear and enhancement.
    And if you don't know the quest, it is entirely possible to take longer than 12 minutes to get to a shrine, even more than 20 if the group is poor or gets confused or doubles back or spends time getting all the optionals or whatever.
    No sir. I made no notes about eithers build.
    But you did. You assume the barbarian has enough HP to survive the trap, but that the rogue doesn't have enough Spot to see it or enough Reflex/HP to survive it. That is commentary on builds, even if not explicit illustration.

    uummm actually it does. Barbarians = Damage reduction. Rogues don't get that.
    Barbs don't get that much DR early on, except when DR boosting. And again, rogues are probably trying to avoid getting hit, whether by letting the barb get aggro (barb taking much more damage), using diplomacy, threat reduction, Deception weapons or...whatever. Also, the rogue is more likely to be moving around to flank targets.

    The quest is on elite. A level8 rogue with meaningful AC in Grey Moon elite is impossible.
    Not going to get into numbers on this, but it is certainly possible to get meaningful AC for Grey Moon on elite at-level.

    Guess ya don't remember this quest. The ogres are a bit further down the bridge not directly in the begining trap. The rogue moves up closer to get a better look of whats ahead and triggers the trap, the ogre's aren't close enough to attack. Sure the ogre would get an arrow off, but they're arrows do little damage.


    It is balanced.

    Even if we changed it so the Rogue did the exact same thing and did not use stealth, the only difference would be the ogres might move a bit closer to the front of the traps, resulting the party getting even more surprised trying to get the Rogues soulstone.
    See my above comments.
    PS: This isn't a 100% theoretical scenario entirely. This has happened to me ingame several times. It's a real thing. I always try to base my examples on real ingame knowledge and experience.

    I will admit, I have whiped on that trap bridge in groups due to the exact same mistakes that party make in the example. In the future, I was sure to lead =)
    And again, I've played with rogues who died in similar situations and barbarians who died in similar situations. Given that this thread is about the role of barbarians as a whole, and in this particular portion of discussion how they make the "best scouts", the specific quest is entirely irrelevant.

    In the future, who had foreknowledge of the quest, which trumps any individual class' ability to scout/lead. I've done Ghola Fan on elite where 2 rogues and a monk all died in the trapped hallway several times each before I got fed up and zipped through it almost entirely unscathed on my paladin who doesn't have Evasion and probably had a slightly lower Reflex save. Why? Because I knew the quest, because I know how to get down that hallway without leaning on Evasion. It's the same reason some players can do the Crucible challenges without Evasion while people with even Improved Evasion just die over and over again. It does nothing to support any point as to a particular character's efficacy in scouting.

    And honestly, the best scouts are probably monks, since they have good Reflex, Evasion (eventually necessarily Improved Evasion), AC, immunities, some crowd control, access to Spot and sneak skills and are very fast.
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  9. #169
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Are we talking barbarians in general or your barbarians? There is a considerable difference in gear available, along with quest knowledge and such.
    heh. My Barbarians dodge all the traps since I know every quest in the game pretty much. Remember my legendary mode post from way back I think you replied to? I wanted traps to 1 shot everyone regardless of HP.


    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That's reasonable, I suppose, but seems kind of silly to send in the heaviest hitter to possibly die in any traps when you have a rogue who may be able to notice traps coming up. Again, if you know the quest, no one should be scouting, and if you don't know the quest, you also probably don't know if the rogue can spot the traps or not.
    Maybe DDO is a silly game, giving the heaviest hitter the highest HP. But thats how it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I'll agree that if you A) don't know the quest and B) know your rogue has poor trap skills then it may be an okay idea to send the barbarian ahead [
    Glad you agree. I accept your apology. (Joking - colbert report reference)
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And if you don't know the quest, it is entirely possible to take longer than 12 minutes to get to a shrine, even more than 20 if the group is poor or gets confused or doubles back or spends time getting all the optionals or whatever.[
    In this particular quest - No. There are no optionals and it's about a 30 second run to the first trap. The 10min is an EXTREMELY worse case scenario where you pull each mob 1 at a time and take a 5 min bio break.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    But you did. You assume the barbarian has enough HP to survive the trap, but that the rogue doesn't have enough Spot to see it or enough Reflex/HP to survive it. That is commentary on builds, even if not explicit illustration.[
    I think it's a fair commentary tho. Go check the Rogue forums top 10 rogue builds, tell me how much spot they have at level 8. It wont be enough. I've had enough personal experience to know this. And I have played a rogue thru this particular quest about a hundred times. While I can't quote exact figures as they've surely change over the years I doubt the overall problem of 8 wisdom rogue builds not having enough spot for elite has changes.
    And ok sure I expect the Barb who scouts to also follow my advice on getting as much HP as he can. But this minor commentary doesn't change the outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Barbs don't get that much DR early on, except when DR boosting. And again, rogues are probably trying to avoid getting hit, whether by letting the barb get aggro (barb taking much more damage), using diplomacy, threat reduction, Deception weapons or...whatever.
    Keep in mind the rogue is already dead, so he cant diplo heh.
    DR at lvl8 = 4/5 enhaced. A significant amount for this level.
    DR boosted = 12 - A MASSIVE amount for this level.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Not going to get into numbers on this, but it is certainly possible to get meaningful AC for Grey Moon on elite at-level.
    I agree. Remeber these are new players tho. The rogue doesn't have that crazy equipment your thinking of. His AC is probably around 25-30 and he thinks thats a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And again, I've played with rogues who died in similar situations and barbarians who died in similar situations. Given that this thread is about the role of barbarians as a whole, and in this particular portion of discussion how they make the "best scouts", the specific quest is entirely irrelevant.
    No. 1 specific quest is not irrelevant. You are not the borg. Resistance is not futile! Every quest counts. Every situation matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And honestly, the best scouts are probably monks, since they have good Reflex, Evasion (eventually necessarily Improved Evasion), AC, immunities, some crowd control, access to Spot and sneak skills and are very fast.
    Barbarians are the best scouts.

  10. #170
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    From your 18barb/2rog multiclass cons:

    - You cannot disable traps or open locks while raged. So'd you have to dismiss your rage when you come upon one, and that means less time raged overall.
    This is not true. I don't know about disable traps (didn't put any points in it), but I can open locks while being raged and madstoned and have confirmed this plenty of times in epic oob.

    Secondly, I'm not sure on your haste boost vs damage boost discussion. To me, it seems that haste boost offers more damage, but I don't have the data to back this up.
    Last edited by Forzah; 01-20-2011 at 07:55 AM.

  11. #171
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    I don't know why anyone would dump wisdom for a rogue since dealing with traps seems to be the only thing rogues do that other classes simply can't do as well. Rogues should make the best scouts, and in my experience any time a rogue is asked for it's because of traps. Though that's just my opinion. They have the necessary skills and abilities, but you do have to gear them toward it.

    I've never actually done a rogue because lots of parties are too impatient and traps usually don't wipe an entire party outside of elite. Plus there aren't many quests that are filled with traps like Vol or Red Fang.
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  12. #172
    Community Member Krag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    Secondly, I'm not sure on your haste boost vs damage boost discussion. To me, it seems that haste boost offers more damage, but I don't have the data to back this up.
    The point is you can only have 1-st tier haste boost but at the same time you are forced to take tier IV damage boost. Tier IV damage boost is fairly close to tier I speed boost.
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  13. #173
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    I don't know about disable traps (didn't put any points in it), but I can open locks while being raged and madstoned and have confirmed this plenty of times in epic oob.
    Good catch I'll fix that.

    Pretty sure on the traps part tho - as it's a INT based skill, and thats one of the things your not good with while raged heh.

    Locks is a dex based skill, which rage shouldn't effect.

  14. #174
    Founder Alavatar's Avatar
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    I recommend clarifying the WF Immunities Pro because there are several that cannot be duplicated by items or spell effects.

    Specifically:
    - Immunity to Poison (can be duplicated by either Proof Against Poison item or a Neutralize Poison spell)
    - Immunity to Disease (can be duplicated by a Disease Immunity item)
    - Immunity to Paralysis including Hold Person, Hold Monster (can be duplicated by Freedom of Movement spell or the Kundarak Delving Boots)
    - Immunity to Flesh to Stone (cannot be duplicated)(Note Flesh to Stone is different from the Stone Prison effect)
    - Immunity to Energy Drain effects (can be duplicated by a Deathward spell)
    - Half damage from Negative Energy damage (cannot be duplicated)

    The immunity to paralysis, disease, and poison make leveling up a lot easier due to being immune to many debilitating spells used by monsters on Elite. Also, all of these immunities with a Deathblock item, in conjunction with their inherently high Fort save due to high CON and a Fire Resistance guild buff, make a WF a terror to Beholders especially while leveling up.

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  15. #175
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    As someone who has been playing a lot of PUGs in the low-mid levels with all my TRs for the last year...

    the LAST thing we need is MORE new barbarians thinking they should be running ahead through traps even when there's a rogue in the group because Shade told them so...

    Shade, use your power for good, not evil.
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  16. #176
    Community Member Goldeneye's Avatar
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    Hey Shade,
    Any hope for a section on past life feats?
    I'm curious as to your opinion of how the different past lives compare:
    • Barbarian
    • Paladin
    • Monk
    • Fighter
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  17. #177
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    As someone who has been playing a lot of PUGs in the low-mid levels with all my TRs for the last year...

    the LAST thing we need is MORE new barbarians thinking they should be running ahead through traps even when there's a rogue in the group because Shade told them so...

    Shade, use your power for good, not evil.
    Please quote the part of the guide that says:

    Purposely run thru traps even if you got a rogue!

    for some reason I can't remembering writing it. Maybe I was drunk and forget?

    But hey i'm like Slim Shadey after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Shadey, Say what you say
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    I wouldn't, not even if I could
    I use my power to enducate and improve the Barbarian Community. Whether it is good or evil, I don't care

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    Let the Paladins guide teach people to be good. I recommend against good alignment!

  18. #178
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldeneye View Post
    Hey Shade,
    Any hope for a section on past life feats?
    I'm curious as to your opinion of how the different past lives compare:
    • Barbarian
    • Paladin
    • Monk
    • Fighter
    Yep. Will be part of the upcoming section:

    Epic and Beyond.

    Also will include some notes on it in my upcomng Half Orc guide. Stay tuned.

  19. #179
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alavatar View Post
    I recommend clarifying the WF Immunities Pro because there are several that cannot be duplicated by items or spell effects.

    Specifically:
    - Immunity to Poison (can be duplicated by either Proof Against Poison item or a Neutralize Poison spell)
    - Immunity to Disease (can be duplicated by a Disease Immunity item)
    - Immunity to Paralysis including Hold Person, Hold Monster (can be duplicated by Freedom of Movement spell or the Kundarak Delving Boots)
    - Immunity to Flesh to Stone (cannot be duplicated)(Note Flesh to Stone is different from the Stone Prison effect)
    - Immunity to Energy Drain effects (can be duplicated by a Deathward spell)
    - Half damage from Negative Energy damage (cannot be duplicated)

    The immunity to paralysis, disease, and poison make leveling up a lot easier due to being immune to many debilitating spells used by monsters on Elite. Also, all of these immunities with a Deathblock item, in conjunction with their inherently high Fort save due to high CON and a Fire Resistance guild buff, make a WF a terror to Beholders especially while leveling up.

    My two coppers ...
    Noted.
    Good list so I decided to incorporate this into the OP and add my existing ones. Also gave you credit for the list. Thanks.
    Last edited by Shade; 01-20-2011 at 02:28 PM.

  20. #180
    Community Member kernal42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    I use my power to enducate
    Enducate? Is that like, Educating on how to End mobs?

    -Kernal

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