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  1. #221
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    There are some things he is very good at, and some advice he gives is quite excellent, but there is just as much drivel spouted here and elsewhere.
    Yes, I don't know why he is so inconsistent. He does give some excellent advice at time. His videos on twitching are very good.

    It's just that every 6 months for the last 4 years, he brings up some insane point about how barbarians are better than every other class at something and won't let it go. I mean, he is really trying to argue that barbarians running face-first into traps is better for the group than having a rogue spot them, and disable them.

    I expect to see him explain someday (with bullet points!) how barbarians are better at crowd control then casters.
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  2. #222
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    I'm not even a veteran at this game and I've already learned that healers and spellcasters in general don't like to use their limited spell points where they don't have to. Charging through a trap and expecting the healer to put out the heals when a good rogue could have disabled the trap beforehand would irritate anyone. I'm not even a vet, and unfortunately it seems Shade was not just kidding about doing that.

    Barbarians are awesome, and quite possibly the best at dps, but I can't get behind the idea of running headlong into traps on harder difficulties.
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  3. #223
    Community Member Wraith_Sarevok's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if this was all just some elaborate coordinated attempt to get him to quit again.

  4. #224
    Community Member Goldeneye's Avatar
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    I'd rather have Axer run head first into a trap then some pug rogue
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  5. #225
    Community Member stoolcannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Yes, I don't know why he is so inconsistent. He does give some excellent advice at time. His videos on twitching are very good.

    It's just that every 6 months for the last 4 years, he brings up some insane point about how barbarians are better than every other class at something and won't let it go. I mean, he is really trying to argue that barbarians running face-first into traps is better for the group than having a rogue spot them, and disable them.

    I expect to see him explain someday (with bullet points!) how barbarians are better at crowd control then casters.
    Dead crowds are controlled? That's all I've got.
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  6. #226
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad28 View Post
    I'm not even a veteran at this game and I've already learned that healers and spellcasters in general don't like to use their limited spell points where they don't have to. Charging through a trap and expecting the healer to put out the heals when a good rogue could have disabled the trap beforehand would irritate anyone. I'm not even a vet, and unfortunately it seems Shade was not just kidding about doing that.

    Barbarians are awesome, and quite possibly the best at dps, but I can't get behind the idea of running headlong into traps on harder difficulties.
    Then your really mis-understanding the guide as badly as some other are.

    Being a scout doesn't mean you PURPOSELY run into traps.

    It means you MIGHT do so accidently. Sometimes you will notice it and dodge it, sometimes you will jump over it. The rogue is nearby enough to get a spot check and warn you, great. Most often you or somethign else in the group will already know about it beforehand and warn you.

    If he's not and no one has run the quest before, you might get hit by the trap. And if your following any of my guides and not running over level elite quests -your not going to die.

    It's juts a worst case scenario thing.

    FOR THE LAST TIME:
    No where in the guide do I recommend players to purposely run into the traps.

    Read the guide more carefully and try to understand. If you need clarification, ask for it. Don't make crazy assumptions or take the insane things people are posting as replies in an attempt to lure me into a silly arguement as fact.
    Last edited by Shade; 01-21-2011 at 09:04 PM.

  7. #227
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Remember when you used to argue with me how Stunning Blow was totally worthless, Shade? Ah, good times, good times...
    False accusation from Thrudh #8912892..

    I believe back in closed beta I recommended against the feat, since it used to be a fixed slow attack animation, a fixed crappy DC15, and stunned mobs were not auto crit.

    Since it was updated to auto crit year ago, I have always highly recommended the feat.

    But keep going.. It's sure upping your credibility as a poster and helping my guide soar to the top # replied thread ever on the Barb forums so thanks I guess.

  8. #228
    Community Member Itachi83's Avatar
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    It is fairly situational.

    A barb may be a better scout in some situations than a rogue, just like a rogue will be better DPS in some situations than barbs.

    Excellent guide like always Shade.

    I would also recommend the suggestion that for those whose Main weapon is keen, MinII, etc, etc, it is viable to switch out IC: Slashing for Stunning Blow, and have both Stunning Blow/Toughness.

    Of course, only do this if you mostly run hard/elite raid content where DR breakers are required, and don't use a Lit2 for trash, or if you have a ESOS then obviously keep IC:slashing.
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  9. #229
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Sephiroth this will be my last reply to you in this thread since your not at all fun to argue with since you keep basically saying:

    Your wrong and I'm right, but I won't offer any evidence why your wrong
    Next thread offer compelling proof to back up your arguements and I might consider them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth
    2nd highest trap saves in the game next to Rogues.
    False. Blatantly false. Monks, Rangers, Paladins, and some Wizards and Bards have higher Reflex saves. Enough higher that even the Barbarian's Trap Sense feature's bonus won't make up the spread, and that is ignoring the de-emphasis of Dex for Barbs.
    Link a single decent Monk, Ranger, Wizard or Bard build with higher reflex save vs traps (rhetorical jab there you can't). Paladins might indeed have higher, but they are poor scouts for other reasons (Slow, only effective vs certain enemies, moderate HP at best, lack of skill points to gain spot/listen, etc)

    You won't be able too. You don't know much about the Barbarian class if you thought otherwise. We have a +12 to reflex saves vs traps that no other class other then Rogues can come close to (+6 trap sense +6 IUD), and in fact Rogues gain the bonus slower (Improved uncanny dodge at 8 vs 5), leaving Barbarians with the single strongest saves versus Fort/Will traps, but Rogues win vs Reflex thanks to a higher base.

    Sure some bad barbarians completely ignore saves, some bad rogues do to. That's probably what your thinking of. None of my builds do and my guide certainly doesn't recommend to.

    - So, if you have a Rogue, Ranger, Monk or Bard the party can likely avoid dying in traps entirely, or at least avoid dying in unknown traps, rather than plunging through the dungeon hoping to not get surprised with death. Being the best scout in a party without a better scout doesn't mean that barbarians make the best scouts.
    You really need better reading comprehension on this one. I'm not recommending anyone purposely run into traps. That's a worse case scenario. Say the player DOES accidentally hit the trap, What will happen?
    That's what the point is about. I think that's clear to most people.


    Post level 9 with Access to Raise dead: The Barbarian dies: Gets Rezzed, rages back up and is back in the fight almost instantly. The Rogue dies in the trap? Back up, but suffering a -1 penalty to skills from death, has no GH or other buffs to his skills and may not be able to find the trap box or disable the trap for a full minute - wasting time on everyone else buffs and slowing down the quest. Sure it might seem dumb for the Barb to die in the trap, but actually in many cases, it saves time. Orrrrrr...you could simply have a character in the party who won't die when they find a trap. Ooh! No lost 10% XP penalty, no wasted SP on raising, healing and rebuffing the barbarian.
    No you can't if you could understand the basic concept of this point. This is a theoretically situation where 1 player accidently runs into the trap. No matter what class he is playing, the result would be the same, he gets hit by it.
    For most traps in the game a Barbarian is the least likely to die from them, so there is no "character that won't die" better then a Barb.
    -Useful, but not as much as Spot for spotting monsters, which many other characters will have more of.
    Then you don't understand the spot skill. Very little is needed to see 99% of monsters in the game. If you follow my build guides, 8-10 wisdom + ponts in spot + item = Enough to see everything. Some classes like Fighter and Paladin simply don't have the skill points to put in there is what this point is getting at.
    - Fastest run speed period via 10% base and sprint boost will let Barbs get out of dangerous situations fast. Unless you are running around with Sprint Boost IV, barbarians are not the fastest characters. Monks are faster all the time except when you're using an incredibly expensive enhancement line that lasts for only 20 seconds out of every minute, and in an emergency are much faster at getting out of trouble from level 12 on (Abundant Step is faster than running and offers a more useful form of movement when in a bad spot most of the time).
    Blantantly false. Your sig lists a Barb.. You not have sprint boost or you just never figure out how to use it?
    No sprint - Monks are slower until level9+ in which case they have very small lead (10% base vs 15-30% base depending on level, level1-8 a Barbarian is faster or equal) (Monk gets 5% at 3, and 5% more every 3 levels thereafter)
    Sprint Boost 1 - AP Cost: 1 AP. NOT IV = Barbarians is MASSIVELY faster then any pure Monk at every level. Sprint boost gives allot more speed then the official description makes it out to be. There have been many threads on this subject, do a search.

    I've raced level20 monks vs my Barb in Prey on the hunter to the end where we both go the same way and he uses his abundant step non stop. I've always won. They are not faster even counting my cooldown on my sprint and their abundant step.

    - High strength means a high jump skill, combined with the highest movement speed lets the Barbarian get up to places other classes simply can not do. In many quests this even means getting up to places to kill dangerous monsters, or spot extra enemies or chests in the distance. Other characters can and will have the same Jump. Other characters can combine jump and speed in this way. Monks still win here.
    No they don't. This point mainly a skill useful at lower levels since at high level access to the jump and haste spell more then covers this. Low level monks have neither a high strength nor the abundant step ability. High levels the only place I know a monk can reach that a sprint jumping barb cannot is Titan preraid levers, and while that does save time, it doesn't count as a useful scouting location. Barbs can do it with a single lever pull which is fine.

    - Superior will saves then a Rogue while raged means if you run into enemy casters, your much less likely to get hit by a nasty dibilitating spell like hold/dominate/command/etc. This is true for barb vs. rogue in a general sense, though other characters will have higher Will saves than both, and rogues can avoid the issue by sneaking and simply not getting targeted with the spells.
    Anoter "im right your wrong" with no evidence. Surprising. What other characters? Why so vague? Can't win the argument so you post vague and pointless things.


    Barbarians are the best scouts. The guide is correct.
    You have lost the arguement.
    Last edited by Shade; 01-21-2011 at 09:12 PM.

  10. #230
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Sephiroth this will be my last reply to you in this thread since your not at all fun to argue with since you keep basically saying:
    Haven't you been doing exactly the same thing? Referencing a single, short, fairly easy quest that you quickly learned as your prime example for proving that barbarians make good scouts isn't much of an argument.


    Link a single decent Monk, Ranger, Wizard or Bard build with higher reflex save vs traps (rhetorical jab there you can't). Paladins might indeed have higher, but they are poor scouts for other reasons (Slow, only effective vs certain enemies, moderate HP at best, lack of skill points to gain spot/listen, etc)

    You won't be able too. You don't know much about the Barbarian class if you thought otherwise. We have a +12 to reflex saves vs traps that no other class other then Rogues can come close to (+6 trap sense +6 IUD), and in fact Rogues gain the bonus slower (Improved uncanny dodge at 8 vs 5), leaving Barbarians with the single strongest saves versus Fort/Will traps, but Rogues win vs Reflex thanks to a higher base.
    You don't have Uncanny Dodge running all the time, do you? I think not with 6 IUDs at level 20 that last for 30 seconds a pop, that's 3 minutes of IUD. If you don't know where the traps are, you aren't going to have IUD up and running for them. So, what barbarians have is a +6 bonus vs. traps and a base +6 Reflex save at level 20, while monks and rangers have a +12 base Reflex save at level 20. If anything, they're even, except that many monks and rangers spend some points on Dex at start, some even improve Dex instead of Str while leveling, and they are more likely to be carrying Dex items (exceptional Dex for example) than a barbarian, meaning a higher Reflex save there. Bards also have a full Reflex progression, giving them the same saves vs. traps that barbs have. Wizards who take Insightful Reflexes (I personally feel this is an incredibly worthwhile feat, though I realize not everyone agrees) will have much more than a 22 Int at level 20--a 36 Int would give them an equal bonus before accounting for the +6 base they have. Early in the game, the saves of monks and rangers are advancing faster than a barbarian's (level 6 a barb has +4 vs. traps, while a monk or ranger has +5, then from there the barbarian catches up, drops behind, and catches up every few levels). A paladin is getting at least +6 to their saves from Cha, which would bring them even before considering Resistance of Good.

    So, at worst, barbarians are tied with all the Str-based monks, rangers and bards for something like 6th or 7th place on the list of highest saves vs. traps they don't know about. And if you know about the trap, in most cases, your Reflex save is irrelevant, which is basically what you're after anyway with your suggestions for the super-epic content.

    What does your Reflex routinely get up to, before Trapsense on your barbarians?
    You really need better reading comprehension on this one. I'm not recommending anyone purposely run into traps. That's a worse case scenario. Say the player DOES accidentally hit the trap, What will happen?
    That's what the point is about. I think that's clear to most people.
    A scout is the player that runs ahead of the party. If there are traps, the scout is the one who either spot them or run into them. Clearly, you didn't say that barbarians should be charging through traps that they see, or know that they are there, but you're advocating barbarians filling this trapfinding role, even when characters with equal or better saves and Evasion, or even Improved Evasion, are present. That's ridiculous.


    No you can't if you could understand the basic concept of this point. This is a theoretically situation where 1 player accidently runs into the trap. No matter what class he is playing, the result would be the same, he gets hit by it.
    For most traps in the game a Barbarian is the least likely to die from them, so there is no "character that won't die" better then a Barb.
    The barbarian is not the least likely to die from it, and most traps will not be killing characters with Evasion who stumbled into them. For one, I'm not sure I can think of any traps in any quest on normal or hard that will likely kill a rogue twice, whereas there are many from which two hits will kill a barbarian. That is, there are no traps that spring to mind in non-elite content with such a high save that a rogue will be failing with a greater than 50% chance. In fact, most rogues will be saving vs. most traps in the 75-95% range, especially if they are buffed. That's 0 damage. On elite, there are a lot of traps that can one-shot even a barbarian that rogues will still save on frequently.

    There are some traps that a barbarian will survive more often than a rogue, but not many. Also, most of the really, really dangerous traps involve getting hit more than once, in which case, the barbarian is probably dead from 2 failed saves. If the trap hits for 400 a pop, a barbarian with under 800 HP is likely dead to any trap that hits more than once. Any character at over 400 HP with Improved Evasion is still alive, even if they fail versus two saves. Most barbarians don't seem to be running around quests with over 800 HP (many have more than this for tanking bosses/raids, but things like Yugo pots, exceptional Con and such tend to not be a part of primary adventuring gear), whereas all but the gimpiest of gimped rogues have about 400 HP or more, and monks are easily ahead of that.

    Then you don't understand the spot skill. Very little is needed to see 99% of monsters in the game. If you follow my build guides, 8-10 wisdom + ponts in spot + item = Enough to see everything. Some classes like Fighter and Paladin simply don't have the skill points to put in there is what this point is getting at.
    Actually, there are several places where monsters have a higher Hide score than that will find, one of them being Monastery of the Scorpion, which is one of the dungeons that most promotes having a scout around.

    Half ranks will get you most stuff, yes, but you still have rogues, rangers and monks with higher, possible, spot scores.

    Blantantly false. Your sig lists a Barb.. You not have sprint boost or you just never figure out how to use it?
    No sprint - Monks are slower until level9+ in which case they have very small lead (10% base vs 15-30% base depending on level, level1-8 a Barbarian is faster or equal) (Monk gets 5% at 3, and 5% more every 3 levels thereafter)
    Sprint Boost 1 - AP Cost: 1 AP. NOT IV = Barbarians is MASSIVELY faster then any pure Monk at every level. Sprint boost gives allot more speed then the official description makes it out to be. There have been many threads on this subject, do a search.

    I've raced level20 monks vs my Barb in Prey on the hunter to the end where we both go the same way and he uses his abundant step non stop. I've always won. They are not faster even counting my cooldown on my sprint and their abundant step.
    Then the monk was probably running out of Ki by the end of the quest, since he was running and using Abundant Step instead of hitting things. I just did a race with a barb from the entrance to The Reaver's Fate down to the entrance to the Ruins of Gianthold and back to The Reaver. With no Abundant Step, and the barbarian using Sprint Boost I, barbarian won by about 3 feet (the width of two character models). That was the second race. For the first, I used Abundant Step with my standing Ki of ~60, which I ran out of when about even with the tavern. I reached the entrance to The Reaver while the barbarian was just getting to the base of the ramp up to the raid. Monk speed + Abundant Step is much faster. If I had had more Ki, such as if we'd been fighting beforehand, I'd be even further ahead.

    No they don't. This point mainly a skill useful at lower levels since at high level access to the jump and haste spell more then covers this. Low level monks have neither a high strength nor the abundant step ability. High levels the only place I know a monk can reach that a sprint jumping barb cannot is Titan preraid levers, and while that does save time, it doesn't count as a useful scouting location. Barbs can do it with a single lever pull which is fine.
    So, for the early part of the game, barbarians have, let's say, a +4 to +6 bonus to jump over monks (assuming barbs start with an 18 and monks a 16 because it's tough to afford more and the barbarian has 2 ranks in Power Rage, which don't come for a few levels anyway, while the monk is using Fire Stance I). By the time the difference in Strength would really amount to a significant difference, Jump +30 becomes more common, and the difference becomes moot.

    Also, depending on what you're doing, a barbarian can be out of Sprint Boost, or have it on cooldown (such as if you need to get out of a fight that has suddenly gone badly in which you were using Damage Boost), whereas the monk likely has Abundant Step available all of the time, or accessible within about 5 seconds.
    Barbarians are the best scouts. The guide is correct.
    You have lost the arguement.
    I haven't, and to include this sort of declamation is childish at best.

    My point has been that barbarians are not the best scouts. I'm not claiming they are the worst, or even not decent scouts, just that they are not the best. Such absolute statements are necessarily problematic in an environment subject to as many variables as DDO is. You're clearly wrong, because for barbarians to be the best scouts, they would have to be in all cases, which they clearly are NOT.

    The fact is, I'd rather be ahead of the group on my paladin, monk, rogue, wizard or ranger more often than on my barbarian. Not because of any class bias, but because they have much better tools for scouting than my barbarian.

    My paladin has much better saves, enough that he's making his save vs. most elite and epic traps better than 50% of the time when only mildly buffed, has only about 150 HP less than the barb, which is more than covered by making the save more often, has much better Will and Fort saves in case I run into a caster, and if I get ambushed, have enough AC and self healing to survive until the group can join me if I can't manage to kill everything on my own.

    The monk has higher Reflex and Improved Evasion, higher Will saves, gets out of bad situations faster, can sneak if he wants to, can spot most traps, had AC for most of the game, can better control with many opponents (stun, charm, dance), and has a 25% miss chance vs. basically everything and the ability to turn invisible at will.

    The rogue has great stealth, can spot most traps, all hiding monsters, has a very high Reflex save, Improved Evasion. Not great if she gets into an ambush with stuff that spots her with no way back to the party, but can avoid that happening in a patient group, and is unlikely to fall into a trap.

    My wizard has as much spot as my barbarian (both have half ranks), a much higher Reflex save, only about 200 less HP, which is made up for with the save, more immunities (Pale Master) that make Will saves (and most Fort saves) irrelevant, excellent self-healing and obviously crowd control for dealing with whatever I happen upon.

    Then there's the barbarian, who has more HP and hits harder, but can't heal himself very well, certainly not cheaply, fails Reflex saves vs. most traps and a lot of spells, Will saves vs. tougher casters, never spots a trap...

    Now, I make no claims to being able to run a barbarian as well as you do, but when putting up pure information (character abilities, skills, strengths and weaknesses) there is just no way a barbarian is going to be the best scout in all circumstances, or even the majority, unless you routinely run without any of characters who make better scouts (which, it should be noted, YOU DO, which may explain some of your misconception here).

    Any time you have a character in the group with a good Spot score, the barbarian is probably not the best character to send ahead of the group.
    Any time you have a group willing to go a little bit slower, to allow a stealthy character to move ahead, the barbarian is definitely not the best scout.
    Any time you have a group where a character with Evasion has a high enough save to not die in the traps, the barbarian is not the best scout.
    The list of possible party make-ups and quest design combinations in which a barbarian does not make for the best character to be moving ahead of the group is long. Much longer than I choose to write out.
    Last edited by sephiroth1084; 01-21-2011 at 11:22 PM.
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  11. #231
    Community Member Itachi83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post

    My wizard has as much spot as my barbarian (both have half ranks), a much higher Reflex save, only about 200 less HP, which is made up for with the save, more immunities (Pale Master) that make Will saves (and most Fort saves) irrelevant, excellent self-healing and obviously crowd control for dealing with whatever I happen upon.

    Then there's the barbarian, who has more HP and hits harder, but can't heal himself very well, certainly not cheaply, fails Reflex saves vs. most traps and a lot of spells, Will saves vs. tougher casters, never spots a trap...

    Now, I make no claims to being able to run a barbarian as well as you do, but when putting up pure information (character abilities, skills, strengths and weaknesses) there is just no way a barbarian is going to be the best scout in all circumstances, or even the majority, unless you routinely run without any of characters who make better scouts (which, it should be noted, YOU DO, which may explain some of your misconception here).

    Any time you have a character in the group with a good Spot score, the barbarian is probably not the best character to send ahead of the group.
    Any time you have a group willing to go a little bit slower, to allow a stealthy character to move ahead, the barbarian is definitely not the best scout.
    Any time you have a group where a character with Evasion has a high enough save to not die in the traps, the barbarian is not the best scout.
    The list of possible party make-ups and quest design combinations in which a barbarian does not make for the best character to be moving ahead of the group is long. Much longer than I choose to write out.
    Shades situation was generally geared toward the lower levels, IE before 9. This is the time when scouts are generally actually needed, in my experience anyway, for newer players.

    MyDDO says that your Wizzy is at 295 HP. Along with the +40 from lich, you have 335 or so, according to myDDO. Now, MyDDO is wrong the majority of the time, but this shows you having a Con +6 item, GFL, and what looks like a +45 Hp greensteel.

    With Yugoloth, 375. My barb has 800 +, ideally 900+. -400-500 HP =/= 200

    Even if it has drastically went up, 200 HP is a very defining factor again.

    Again, this is guide is geared towards newer players and you should consider the players at the time of actually needing a scout, IE lower levels.

    The situation that I would consider, is the worst possible scenario to judge whether or not a barb can be a scout.

    Yes, in ideal situations rogues/monks make awesome "scouts". But I very rarely run with a non-str based rogue, or even monk.
    ==S t o r m L o r d s==

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  12. #232
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi83 View Post
    Shades situation was generally geared toward the lower levels, IE before 9. This is the time when scouts are generally actually needed, in my experience anyway, for newer players.

    MyDDO says that your Wizzy
    MyDDO is wrong. In general and very much so in this specific case. That shot on MyDDO was from before I TR'ed my wizard and before I had acquired some gear. Elochka is usually sitting at around 520 HP. More with a Yugo pot, but I only very rarely drink those these days. Most barbarians I've asked have said that they typically run around with an HP in the mid-700s when not raid tanking. My barbarian is somewhere in there, with HP in the mid-800s when raid tanking. Hence my figure of about 200.

    Again, this is guide is geared towards newer players and you should consider the players at the time of actually needing a scout, IE lower levels.

    The situation that I would consider, is the worst possible scenario to judge whether or not a barb can be a scout.

    Yes, in ideal situations rogues/monks make awesome "scouts". But I very rarely run with a non-str based rogue, or even monk.
    [/quote] This guide is aimed at a lot of things, some of which include low-level barbarians, but the entire guide is not pointed that way exclusively. Moreover, Axer's assertion that barbarians make the best scouts has no other qualifier attached to it, so we must presume he's referring to barbarians in all parties and at all levels, and he seems to be pushing at least the first of those two pretty hard, and that's where my argument comes in.

    Judging whether a barbarian can be a scout is what I'm pushing for. Sometimes, yes, a barbarian is your best option, but certainly not always. What is an ideal situation? What is a worst case scenario? How often do the two come up? How often does having the character with Evasion taking point result in a loss of the Flawless Victory bonus vs. the frequency when a barbarian is doing it?
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  13. #233
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    We have a +12 to reflex saves vs traps that no other class other then Rogues can come close to (+6 trap sense +6 IUD)
    How exactly are you going to have Improved Uncanny Dodge running when you walk face-first into a hidden trap?

    You continually discredit your game knowledge by stating things like

    "Barbarians have the second-best reflex saves against traps in the game"
    "Barbarians with Sprint Boost I are faster than monks using Abundant Step"
    Last edited by Thrudh; 01-22-2011 at 01:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  14. #234
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    I donno if any1 told this but yea ac is useful (for barbs) only at low lvls,(I thnk shade said something about getting +3 mithral full plate early on +if your in a a bit higher lvl guild thats +4 to ac ) but as you get over lvl 10 healers get potent enough to heal you & your ac almost useless so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Sure if you do all that you may end up with a 5% or 10% DPS increase over someone else who has "only" spent a couple of hundred hours getting "good enough" gear, but whether or not the large amount of time spent grinding for a marginal increase in DPS is worthwhile is questionable.

  15. #235
    Community Member rust75's Avatar
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    Shade whats your thoughts regarding old barbs with crit rage enh. line?
    (vs fb,usability in epic quests,etc)

    Thanks

  16. #236
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rust75 View Post
    Shade whats your thoughts regarding old barbs with crit rage enh. line?
    (vs fb,usability in epic quests,etc)

    Thanks
    Far less DPS then frenzy berserker. Respec soon as you get a chance.

  17. #237
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Since other people I won't mention just rather use false conjecture, I'll give out a an actual comparisons between Barbarians and other good builds from other classes reflex saves vs traps:

    Vs Hydros WF Monk Metaru (imo one of the best monk builds in the game)
    Relevant Stats 32point build:
    Base Dex 16 (+3)
    Base Reflex Save 12
    Monk specific boost:
    None on this build

    My WF THF Build (32point) (This build has the lowest overall saves of all of my builds):
    Base Dex 14 (+2)
    Base Reflex Save 6

    Addition unique Barbarian effects:
    Trapsense 6
    Improved uncanny dodge 6

    Gear: My build specificly recommends a +5 resistance DT docent, his doesn't have any resist item, but we will say he recommends one too and just forgot to mention it.

    Totals:
    Barbarian all the time w/ basic gear:
    19
    Situational for up to 3+ minutes without cool-downs:
    25
    Monk all the time w/ basic gear:
    20

    So the monk wins by 1 point passively, but loses out by a lot situationally.

    How does the Barb know to use his uncanny dodges? By following my guide and the rule about using boosts early and often.
    Sure he might run out long before you pass the final trap, then again he might not. It's all variable.

    And again, Barbarians with good hp and good saves do not die in traps.

    Evasion is not some magical thing that says you never die in traps, characters with evasion and lower saves then a Barbarian will die in traps more often then a Barbarian at full health.

    Especially versus elemental traps. Half damage versus a low level fire trap can often mean no damage. Say a 200 damage fireball trap: Save = 100 damage - 120 from protection buff you asked for = no damage.

    Versus physical traps = our damage reduction applies, so that helps a little bit. Some physical traps like spikes offer no save at all, making the Barbarian always the most ideal party member to navigate, as evasion has no effect on them, but DR does.

    Again most of this mainly applies to low levels.

    Why not high levels?
    Because at high levels if you do pug, chances are extremely good that at least 1 f the 6 party members knows the quest and probably won't be letting you run into unknown traps anyways - and if you can see the trap.. Well your faster movement, sprint boost and uncanny dodge by far makes you the ideal candidate to navigate it, if your Rogue otherwise can't disable it, or you have no rogue. And many high level traps do feature ways for Barbarians to disable them.. Examples:

    Monastery: Air trap - Sprint boost into the trap dead center and navigate around to the left in a zig zag and hit the rune. Aim yourself towards the catwalk as you fall and you can get the chest and disable the trap without a rogue. This is doable on any class with skill, but easier with sprint boost and a big HP buffer.

    I dream of Jeets: Trap area - lots of levers to turn stuff off. So sprint ahead of your party to win the race for the key, then hit some of the levers to make it safer for your party.

    Stealer of Souls:
    Ice/Air jet Area: Sprint jump all of the air jets and you can reach the lever with no assistance from your party. Stand on the very inside of the lever on top of it, and the trap will not hit you as you activate it.

    There are more, but thats enough to prove a point.

    So unless your in a static group that runs together for the first time, scouts are generally not needed at higher levels due to the vast amount of veteran players. And if that's the case - there's not going to be an argument, static groups generally have long since decided who is the leader/scout of the group.

    But hey want to be the ultimate scout:
    Play your Rogue like a Barbarian and give him tons of HP, a Barb level for speed and sprint boost and be an honorary Barbarian =)

    Oh and get a baseball bat for a weapon and yell "BONK!" into your mic a lot!

  18. #238
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    How in the world are you counting IUD for 3 minutes against unknown traps? What quest are you going to do with all the traps within 3 minutes of the start or a shrine? That's ridiculous and you know it, which is why you glossed over the point.

    Also, what are you including for your basic gear there? The only relevant values are:
    You: +6 base, +6 vs. traps, +2 Dex = +14
    vs.
    Him: +12 base, +3 Dex = +15.

    If you know about the trap, you have a higher Reflex, but if you know about the trap, the whole scouting argument is irrelevant, and the monk will always be taking equal to, or less damage than you do after level 10. While leveling you will have more DR that applies vs. some traps, until level 20, when the monk jumps in the lead.

    Convenient that you ignored all the other points I made.
    Last edited by sephiroth1084; 01-22-2011 at 09:51 AM.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  19. #239
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Here's the thing about Shade...

    He's usually about a year behind the rest of us vet players, but he does come around eventually.

    Back when the cap was 12, and feats were tight, he was all about staying pure... This was before PrEs... A pure level 12 barbarian got some of kind addition to rage (another +2 STR and CON, I think, or maybe even +4).

    Many of us even then, thought splashing fighter for the extra feat was worthwhile because it let us fit in Stunning Blow...

    Shade fought all over barb forums how that was a gimp move, how more strength and DPS feats were more important. We just could not convince him that auto-crit was worth it... He went on and on about the cool-down, and when you would miss, and how it didn't work on bosses, so it was pointless... When we pointed out a stunned opponent didn't fight back, he said he didn't care if he got hurt, that's what clerics are for.

    But now he's a big proponent of Stunning Blow... He never came out and said that he changed his mind... He just started including it in his guide like he's always loved that feat...

    Then when level 20 and all the PrEs came around, he was a huge proponent of staying pure... He used the word "gimp" a lot when talking about multi-class barbarians... He just could not wrap his head around the trade-off between more STR and CON to two extra feats and Haste Boost, or evasion, UMD and Haste Boost.

    But lo and behold... his new guide contains multi-class information. No admitting he changed his mind... He's always thought this way!

    I don't like Shade absolutes... I don't like his tunnel-vision when it comes to barbarians. Good players think situationally. Good players adapt... Good players never say never.

    My only double-TR is a barbarian... I love the class as well... But I understand its limitations too... I understand how to play in a group. not doing my own thing, and demanding all possible buffs, and constant heals.

    There are a lot of bad players playing barbarians... They need to understand their limitations, and understand group play... They don't need to be demanding heals and buffs, and running face first into traps and ambushes because Shade said so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  20. #240
    Community Member Wraith_Sarevok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    How in the world are you counting IUD for 3 minutes against unknown traps? What quest are you going to do with all the traps within 3 minutes of the start or a shrine? That's ridiculous and you know it, which is why you glossed over the point.
    "The cooldown is also 30 seconds so this can be used continuously until all charges are depleted."

    -DDOWiki

    So, technically, he CAN run around for exactly 3 minutes with the buff on continuously between shrines if he wanted to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Here's the thing about Shade...
    He just said how Stunning Blow was pretty much worthless back then, if you scroll up to his post.

    When I first read Thrudh saying Shade didn't want to accept Stunning Blow at that time, I thought to myself: "Okay, maybe he has a point and Shade's views have changed since then..." But no. He was right the entire time. So your continuously bringing up that point is making you look bad, not him.

    He didn't change his mind. Turbine changed the feat. He still has the same view on the old Stunning Blow versus the new Stunning Blow.

    Also, I'm pretty sure he's only doing an 18 barbarian / 2 Fighter Half-Orc because the Past Life: Berserker's Fury feat is so ridiculously powerful in its current state. It clearly outweighs the Capstone right now. Should Turbine ever fix the hidden bonuses (which I'm sure they eventually will), he'd likely go back to being a pure Barbarian again.

    Good players adapt? He even states in his guides that the build has survived since beta.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    He's usually about a year behind the rest of us vet players, but he does come around eventually.
    P.S. I think you misspelled "ahead."

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