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  1. #21
    Hero krissonofpark's Avatar
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    Post Pretty accurate description of PNP

    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    You left out a huge difference between permadeath and pnp.

    When a pnp character dies*, the party meets a new character roughly at the same level as the last (possibly with a "penalty level") that meets the same role as the dead guy. They instantly accept him as a blood brother and trust him with their lives (and souls, depending on the quest).

    When a permadeath character dies*, you start over in Korthos (or possibly off the spire if veteran is unlocked).

    I'd say that this is a significant difference, and enough to prevent plenty of pnp players in permadeath.

    *dies as in "not going to be raised".

    ** note I've just started permadeath. There are plenty of reasons to believe it is "a better way to play" and "closer to pnp". The original poster's reasons just aren't valid, and there is no objective reason to state these opinions of permadeath as facts.
    Have to agree with this description of PNP playing, always been the standard policy of any group I have been in. The players do keep accepting some total stranger into their party with very little thought on the matter and they usual fill the role of the deceased character.

    I have been wondering myself, just how many times permadeath players have run Korthos, since unlike in PNP, they have to completely delete their character and start again, from the start? And whether veteran status be allowed in permadeath?

  2. #22
    Community Member kafrielveddicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krissonofpark View Post
    Have to agree with this description of PNP playing, always been the standard policy of any group I have been in. The players do keep accepting some total stranger into their party with very little thought on the matter and they usual fill the role of the deceased character.

    I have been wondering myself, just how many times permadeath players have run Korthos, since unlike in PNP, they have to completely delete their character and start again, from the start? And whether veteran status be allowed in permadeath?
    Most of our guildies have several toons of multiple levels, so if one toon does pass on they have others to play with at the appropriate level, so yes groups do consist of different toons that run amongst alternate groups, although we do not run with toons outside the guild, we do not allow veteran status as it takes all of one/two play sessions to get to 4th level with holding off xp!

    As far as dying goes, this is one of the great challenges we have instilled with our guild, as the importance is weighed heavy. First a death means all toons must recalll from the quest even if a rez is given, this prevents quest completion at the loss of other members which brings us together as a family like unit, secondly once you have had your first death and rez on a toon you become banned from receiving ship buffs this encourages everyone to take death very seriously, our highest toon in the guild is 15th level without a death!!!

    Please feel free to come join a group of very loyal comrades!!!
    Guild: PD Halls of Valhalla on Ghallanda Level 56, Website: http://valhallans.proboards.com/
    Casualnarc 20, Repentnarc 16, Snipernarc 14, Banknarc 13, Gatlingnarc 12, Airnarc 12, Braverynarc 11, Lednarc 11, Tempestnarc 11, Holynarc 9, Repeatnarc 6, Ebuttonnarc 6 <-ALL WITH ZERO DEATHS

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robi3.0 View Post
    Wow, if this is the way perma-death players act, I am so not joining in. If I wanted to be looked down on and judged by a group of people that think their poo don't stink, I would go to church.

    P.S. Your guild needs to find a better person to do PR.

    *Facepalm*
    Wow, if this is the way <people who do not go to church> act I am so not joining in. If I wanted to be looked down on and judged by a group of people that think their poo don't stink, I would go to <place>.

    P.S. Your <group> needs to find a better person to do PR.

    *Facepalm*


    /sarcasm off

    Way to roll a "1" on that diplo check.
    Member of The Sublime Permadeath Guild on Thelanis.
    www.thesublimeguild.com

    Go Hard or Go Home!

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainy_matthew View Post
    Hell yes. Try playing the Sand Shaper PrC; effective immortality after level 10 of the PrC. Still not going to play Permadeath, as i find permadeath players to be absolute @#$^$# when it comes to actually playing. The amount of shouting & anal retention, takes the fun out of the game... Heck theres enough of that in a non permadeath PUG.
    Someone has to be kind enough to bury you remains in the sand for you to be brought back with that ability.

  5. #25

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    Hey guys, PD is quite fun and adds a new and exciting element to the game. Narc is a very good player and i respect him as a good player and PDer. It seems his post could have been worded better and he could have explained it, but his intention were good.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I'm on it. Nerfing the new thing asap.
    Also, nerfing the old thing too, for balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    nnnnnnnmn....Pie is greater than Cake....nnnnnnnnn
    ^^^^didn't need to hypnotize me to make me say that :P ^^^^^^

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNarc View Post
    Most of our guildies have several toons of multiple levels, so if one toon does pass on they have others to play with at the appropriate level, so yes groups do consist of different toons that run amongst alternate groups, although we do not run with toons outside the guild, we do not allow veteran status as it takes all of one/two play sessions to get to 4th level with holding off xp!

    As far as dying goes, this is one of the great challenges we have instilled with our guild, as the importance is weighed heavy. First a death means all toons must recalll from the quest even if a rez is given, this prevents quest completion at the loss of other members which brings us together as a family like unit, secondly once you have had your first death and rez on a toon you become banned from receiving ship buffs this encourages everyone to take death very seriously, our highest toon in the guild is 15th level without a death!!!

    Please feel free to come join a group of very loyal comrades!!!
    To each their own. I'm not sure why the OP even posted. It would seem that the groups are all nice little happy families. For most, it is not their play style so again to each their own.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by krissonofpark View Post
    Have to agree with this description of PNP playing, always been the standard policy of any group I have been in. The players do keep accepting some total stranger into their party with very little thought on the matter and they usual fill the role of the deceased character.

    I have been wondering myself, just how many times permadeath players have run Korthos, since unlike in PNP, they have to completely delete their character and start again, from the start? And whether veteran status be allowed in permadeath?
    I suspect that many permadeath players take up PD play after becoming painfully familiar with Korthos (or "the low road" for those who joined before f2p). I suspect that most of the deaths I am aware of (there is a different, but similarly disturbing "herox has left your guild" message. In my main's guild I tend to assume it was a failed alt (although I've been through an exodus where you would see all the alts leave as well), but in permadeath, you already know what it meant.

    Mostly, it appears that there is a distinct re-training when you learn cautious PD play vs. standard DDO. Depending on the rules, PD toons can go to level 20 (after a great deal of practice...). I will admit to hearing of one of the Shroud team buying it in rainbow recently. From what I understand, there exists a trap that prevents (PD at least) rezing and is easily ignored in non-PD play. Nasty, nasty trap.

    So far I have but 3 toons in PD (I still play my old toons and guild). One 5th level (died soloing on elite where he shouldn't have), one 6th, one 4th. I suspect that while it sounds like we spend a lot of time in Korthos, it comes out to one day in the life of a toon. I know that all of my toons have spent far longer in the Harbor. I suspect that I will soon be able to say the same about the House quests, but would like to avoid jinxing myself.

  8. #28
    Community Member kafrielveddicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    I suspect that many permadeath players take up PD play after becoming painfully familiar with Korthos (or "the low road" for those who joined before f2p). I suspect that most of the deaths I am aware of (there is a different, but similarly disturbing "herox has left your guild" message. In my main's guild I tend to assume it was a failed alt (although I've been through an exodus where you would see all the alts leave as well), but in permadeath, you already know what it meant.

    Mostly, it appears that there is a distinct re-training when you learn cautious PD play vs. standard DDO. Depending on the rules, PD toons can go to level 20 (after a great deal of practice...). I will admit to hearing of one of the Shroud team buying it in rainbow recently. From what I understand, there exists a trap that prevents (PD at least) rezing and is easily ignored in non-PD play. Nasty, nasty trap.

    So far I have but 3 toons in PD (I still play my old toons and guild). One 5th level (died soloing on elite where he shouldn't have), one 6th, one 4th. I suspect that while it sounds like we spend a lot of time in Korthos, it comes out to one day in the life of a toon. I know that all of my toons have spent far longer in the Harbor. I suspect that I will soon be able to say the same about the House quests, but would like to avoid jinxing myself.
    good to see you are playing permadeath wumpus, many of our guildies come from a pen and paper background.

    Happy Hunting!
    Guild: PD Halls of Valhalla on Ghallanda Level 56, Website: http://valhallans.proboards.com/
    Casualnarc 20, Repentnarc 16, Snipernarc 14, Banknarc 13, Gatlingnarc 12, Airnarc 12, Braverynarc 11, Lednarc 11, Tempestnarc 11, Holynarc 9, Repeatnarc 6, Ebuttonnarc 6 <-ALL WITH ZERO DEATHS

  9. #29
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    Default PD is being confused with hardcore again

    PD just means that.. if you die you die. You delete and restart. Here it's used as a synonym for "hardcore" a lot, which is weird. At any rate, it just means you end up repeating korthos a lot (unless you have a ton of members in your guild and they are all mysteriously doing nothing when you want to play, or maybe you have a static group that meets on a certain day and/or time.)

  10. #30
    Community Member der_kluge's Avatar
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    I like the concept of PD, but it always felt rather contrived to me. Eberron is a high magic world - with access to high level magic. And within that, you've got a group of people who'd rather be dead than choose to take advantage of resources that would allow them to live.

    It seems like PD is all about retaining a sense of verisimilitude. To that end, if I die in a quest, and someone takes my soulstone to the resurrection shrine, I should be able to use it. Since, in this world, those things exist, and inexplicably, when I die, a soulstone gets created near my corpse. Weird to us yes, but these are the rules in this universe, so I accept them. So about the only situation - in my mind, that would cause a PD character to permanently and forever be dead is if a party wipes in a dungeon and has no means to get to the shrine. In those cases, that's it -everyone is dead, and has to start over. But that doesn't seem to be the rules people use. Whatever.

    Personally, I pretty much hate the Korthos quests, and loathe running them, even for favor. All the best quests, IMHO, are at the end game, and it's just a far, far, far more interesting place to be.
    Cannith:
    Brigette; Warlock12/Monk3(14th life) || Aoeryn; Wiz20(3rd life).

  11. #31
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    In PnP there is no such thing as permadeath. Death is just a status condition, and is in no way permanent.
    I know I'm late on this one but I see the thread is active again. So....

    Permadeath is a PnP term used since the early 80s to describe a campaign where one death = dead character. Roll up another if you want but that toon that died is gone.

    I have played through many PnP campaigns, several turn based MUDs, and a few MMOs, and PW based video games throughout the years, with PD rules in place. the common misconception is that it is some fad that started with video games or MMOs. This is incorrect, and you will see references made to it in old AD&D literature, along with reverse D&D, and other optional rules.

    I see alot of people on and off the forums who want to put emphasis on quality play and not dying, and one great way to do that is to make the penalty for dying extreme enough where it becomes not just simply undesirable, but a PITA. You would be surprised at the much smaller percentage of poor quality play that occurs in these situations. In a game where the penalty for death = raise and continue, people stop caring so much about a death or two, as it is simply a repair bill, but if it could mean having to delete a level 18 toon that was rolled up pre MOD 9 and start over on it, complacency does not easily set in.

    I ran a PW in NWN that was both PD and low magic, and the players all learned how to play well in groups, because the price for failing to do so was extreme enough to make anyone interested to continue their PD experience put emphasis on this. The min maxers and gear heads get weeded out real quick, along with anyone else who needs a specific crutch to lean on in order to succeed.

    In order to have fun playing PD, you must abandon the "I must have the best gear possible for my build" attitude, or do like I do and roll up a few non PD toons for grinding raids and epics repeatedly, all for the sole purpose of obtaining gear that makes it slightly easier to grind the same raids and epics at a later date.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-01-2011 at 12:54 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by der_kluge View Post
    It seems like PD is all about retaining a sense of verisimilitude. To that end, if I die in a quest, and someone takes my soulstone to the resurrection shrine, I should be able to use it. Since, in this world, those things exist, and inexplicably, when I die, a soulstone gets created near my corpse. Weird to us yes, but these are the rules in this universe, so I accept them. So about the only situation - in my mind, that would cause a PD character to permanently and forever be dead is if a party wipes in a dungeon and has no means to get to the shrine. In those cases, that's it -everyone is dead, and has to start over. But that doesn't seem to be the rules people use. Whatever.
    That's what it should be, but for some reason everyone calls hardcore gaming 'permadeath'.

  13. #33
    Community Member ColdNapalm's Avatar
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    So people think PD is like PnP (which it isn't) and so we should play a video game like a table top game (which is completely different). Yeah that makes SOOOO much sense. Sorry, but if I did PD, I would never make it past level 5 since I have at least one computer freeze, lag episode, straight up DC, cat attacking my computer fan/powercord/video cord/modem...or just plain old ME, etc etc that would cause death in the game before then. This isn't a table top game with a DM where I can go hold on a sec while I go deal with a crazy cat. A table top game does not lag or freeze or have hardware issues.

    And honestly if your playing to replicate a table top game...then death isn't permenant...only a TPK is. So while you would not use a shrine, if the rest of the party can either res you via spell or ability or just plain old finish the quest anyways, then your not dead dead...the party raises you after the quest. So honestly I don't see PD as anything even remotely like PnP.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I know I'm late on this one but I see the thread is active again. So....

    Permadeath is a PnP term used since the early 80s to describe a campaign where one death = dead character. Roll up another if you want but that toon that died is gone.

    I have played through many PnP campaigns, several turn based MUDs, and a few MMOs, and PW based video games throughout the years, with PD rules in place. the common misconception is that it is some fad that started with video games or MMOs. This is incorrect, and you will see references made to it in old AD&D literature, along with reverse D&D, and other optional rules.

    I see alot of people on and off the forums who want to put emphasis on quality play and not dying, and one great way to do that is to make the penalty for dying extreme enough where it becomes not just simply undesirable, but a PITA. You would be surprised at the much smaller percentage of poor quality play that occurs in these situations. In a game where the penalty for death = raise and continue, people stop caring so much about a death or two, as it is simply a repair bill, but if it could mean having to delete a level 18 toon that was rolled up pre MOD 9 and start over on it, complacency does not easily set in.

    I ran a PW in NWN that was both PD and low magic, and the players all learned how to play well in groups, because the price for failing to do so was extreme enough to make anyone interested to continue their PD experience put emphasis on this. The min maxers and gear heads get weeded out real quick, along with anyone else who needs a specific crutch to lean on in order to succeed.

    In order to have fun playing PD, you must abandon the "I must have the best gear possible for my build" attitude, or do like I do and roll up a few non PD toons for grinding raids and epics repeatedly, all for the sole purpose of obtaining gear that makes it slightly easier to grind the same raids and epics at a later date.
    But you see, this works because you have a static group. There are no PUGs in pnp. In a PUG environment you still get play that you call "poor quality". So in a PUG you will still end up dead through no fault of yours, and still end up repeating Korthos a lot.

    From my personal obsevations, it seems a myth that PD makes people play better. People play better because they play better. People play better from experience and learning. They either make mistakes and learn, or learn from the mistakes of others. Everyone has a shortcoming or flaw, no one is perfect.

    If you play with a static group, after a while you learn their shortcomings and compensate for them. In this way eventually you have a group that works well, independently everyone may be flawed but as a group they're quite solid because someone always makes up for someone else's shortcomings.

    If you play with PUGs you'll just end up dead a lot (or just play melee a lot.) There are a lot of motivations behind a MMO that are not present in a PnP game. One of them might make it prudent to make the game impossible to solo all the way (one never knows.)

    In order to have fun playing PD, you must abandon the "I must have the best gear possible for my build" attitude, or do like I do and roll up a few non PD toons for grinding raids and epics repeatedly, all for the sole purpose of obtaining gear that makes it slightly easier to grind the same raids and epics at a later date.
    Didn't you just contradict yourself? you said

    you must abandon the "I must have the best gear possible for my build" attitude
    And then you said

    roll up a few non PD toons for grinding raids and epics repeatedly, all for the sole purpose of obtaining gear that makes it slightly easier to grind the same raids and epics at a later date.
    Is that not trying to get the best gear for your build?

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