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  1. #1
    Community Member Rakian_Knight's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Halfling PrE, Master Thrower

    Halflings are masters of thrown weapons so why not give them a PrE based on it? Now I know that throwing weapons are the greatest in the game but if we make a some more benifits for them they might be able to do something worthwhile. Now, this is going to be mostly focused on classes like rogues and monks because of dex. however, this would be open to any class. Might be interesting to see a Halfling fighter Kensai focused with throwing axes.

    Basically the prestige class from pnp gives you "Weapon Tricks" every other level along with other Throwing themed bonuses and bonus feats. My thinking is making Master thrower similar to the Arcane Archer in that you have a base PrE but it branches out into many different thing (elemental arrows etc.)

    Halfling Master Thrower I
    Cost: 4ap
    Requires: Halfling level 6 / +5 base attack bonus / Point Blank Shot / Precise Shot / Weapon Focus (Thrown) / Halfling Thrown Damage II
    Benifits: You have started the delicate art of learning to craftfully disarm yourself. All your throwing weapons now have a +1 to hit and damage and you gain the Quick Draw feat. This PrE now allows you to learn thrown weapon tricks.

    Halfling Master Thrower II
    Cost: 2ap
    Requires: Halfling level 12 / Halfling Master thrower I / Halfling Thrown Damage III
    Benifits: You have become a master of thrown weapons, you gain an additional +1 to attacks and damage (for a bonus of +2) and gain the Improved Critical (Thrown) feat.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Double Toss"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 6 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: This trogglable ability allows you to throw two weapons at once.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Trip Shot"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 8 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: You can now make a ranged Trip attempt against an enemy by pinning a piece of clothing to the ground or something simular. The Trip DC is 14 + Dex. Mod. vs. a str. or dex. check whichever is stronger.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Deadeye Shot"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 10 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: Weapon Criticals are 1 higher for your thrown weapons. For example: a 19-20 x2 throwing dagger now has 19-20 x3.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Sneaky Shot"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 12 / Halfling Master Thrower II
    Benifits: You can use this ability to make a bluff check against your opponent, if you suceed, you opponent is denied any dex. bonus to AC (this also allows sneak attack damage if you are close.)
    (Sneaky Shot doesn't have a long animation like Bluff)

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Palm Throw"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires Halfing level 14 / Halfling Master Thrower II
    Benifits: Only for smaller thrown weapons (Suriken/Darts/Throwing Daggers) you can throw two in your hand at a time. This ability stacks with Double Toss for a total of 4 weapons thrown. However, you only gain half your str. bonus to attacks.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Weak Spot"
    Cost: 2ap
    Requires Halfling level 16 / Halfing Master Thrower II
    Benifits: This attack has a chance to instantly kill its target by landing in a vital organ. The target needs to make a Reflex Save vs. DC 15+Dex. Mod. or suffer 1d10 con damage, then a fort save or die. However, the DC drops by 1 for every 30 feet in game you are from your target. (Cooldown 1 min.)

    Well that it so tell me what you think. Over powered, good for bringing life into dead weapons?

    Just an idea

    ~Rakian_Knight

    First Changes (Thanks coolpenguin410)
    -Weak Spot DC lowers with distance.
    -Cooldown shortened for Weak Spot.
    -Half Str. for Palm Throw
    Last edited by Rakian_Knight; 01-08-2011 at 04:50 PM.
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    Threads: Halfling PrE, Master Thrower / New set of spells: Illusion

  2. #2
    Community Member kjohnson1990's Avatar
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    I like. gimme gimme gimme now!
    Sometimes i wish blindness was a buff....

  3. #3
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakian_Knight View Post
    Halflings are masters of thrown weapons so why not give them a PrE based on it? Now I know that throwing weapons are the greatest in the game but if we make a some more benifits for them they might be able to do something worthwhile. Now, this is going to be mostly focused on classes like rogues and monks because of dex. however, this would be open to any class. Might be interesting to see a Halfling fighter Kensai focused with throwing axes.

    Basically the prestige class from pnp gives you "Weapon Tricks" every other level along with other Throwing themed bonuses and bonus feats. My thinking is making Master thrower simular to the Arcane Archer in that you have a base PrE but it branches out into many different thing (elemental arrows etc.)

    Halfling Master Thrower I
    Cost: 4ap
    Requires: Halfling level 6 / +5 base attack bonus / Point Blank Shot / Precise Shot / Weapon Focus (Thrown) / Halfling Thrown Damage II
    Benifits: You have started the delicate art of learning to craftfully disarm yourself. All your throwing weapons now have a +1 to hit and damage and you gain the Quick Draw feat. This PrE now allows you to learn thrown weapon tricks.

    Halfling Master Thrower II
    Cost: 2ap
    Requires: Halfling level 12 / Halfling Master thrower I / Halfling Thrown Damage III
    Benifits: You have become a master of thrown weapons, you gain an additional +1 to attacks and damage (for a bonus of +2) and gain the Improved Critical (Thrown) feat.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Double Toss"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 6 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: This trogglable ability allows you to throw two weapons at once.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Deadeye Shot"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 10 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: Weapon Criticals are 1 higher for your thrown weapons. For example: a 19-20 x2 throwing dagger now has 19-20 x3.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Trip Shot"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 8 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: You can now make a ranged Trip attempt against an enemy by pinning a piece of clothing to the ground or something simular. The Trip DC is 14 + Dex. Mod. vs. a str. or dex. check whichever is stronger.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Sneaky Shot"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 12 / Halfling Master Thrower II
    Benifits: You can use this ability to make a bluff check against your opponent, if you suceed, you opponent is denied any dex. bonus to AC (this also allows sneak attack damage if you are close.)
    (Sneaky Shot doesn't have a long animation like Bluff)

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Palm Throw"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires Halfing level 14 / Halfling Master Thrower II
    Benifits: Only for smaller thrown weapons (Suriken/Darts/Throwing Daggers) you can throw two in your hand at a time. This ability stacks with Double Toss for a total of 4 weapons thrown.

    Halfling Weapon Trick "Weak Spot"
    Cost: 2ap
    Requires Halfling level 16 / Halfing Master Thrower II
    Benifits: This attack has a chance to instantly kill its target by landing in a vital organ. The target needs to make a Reflex Save vs. DC 15+Dex. Mod. or suffer 1d10 con damage, then a fort save or die. (Cooldown 2 mins.)

    Well that it so tell me what you think. Over powered, good for bringing life into dead weapons?

    Just an idea

    ~Rakian_Knight
    Love the idea. I've been wondering how I can dust off my halfling thrower rogue and this looks like a great way to do it. The few suggestions I would make are:

    Add Halfling dex enhancements to the requirements (makes sense)

    Per PnP, Palm Throw does not add your strength bonus to damage. This should be applied. It would still be useful because you could use it for stat damagers or on-crit effects where hits/crits are more important than damage.

    Weak Spot should be only within 30'. I'd lower the cooldown too. Does the assassin death attack have a cooldown?

    Otherwise it's great!

  4. #4
    Community Member Rakian_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolpenguin410 View Post
    Love the idea. I've been wondering how I can dust off my halfling thrower rogue and this looks like a great way to do it. The few suggestions I would make are:

    Add Halfling dex enhancements to the requirements (makes sense)

    Per PnP, Palm Throw does not add your strength bonus to damage. This should be applied. It would still be useful because you could use it for stat damagers or on-crit effects where hits/crits are more important than damage.

    Weak Spot should be only within 30'. I'd lower the cooldown too. Does the assassin death attack have a cooldown?

    Otherwise it's great!
    One thing about the Arcane Archer racial PrE was that the Preq. were mostly feat based so you could use your AP to get your class PrE so I wanted to continue with that here with as very little Enhancement requirements. However, the PrE is costly and can bite a little or alot depending on how focused you want to get in it. If this would go into game, I see mostly rogues and monks picking it up fully with fighters (with the extra feats) picking up Thrower I, and one or two tricks.

    My logic with keeping str. in Palm throw (well first I over-looked it) but more was focusing on smaller weapons that are only going to have 1d4/17-20 /x3 at most so giving them a boost compared to other ranged attacks like a bow that is going to get 1d10/19-20/x3 or a repeating heavy crossbow 1d10/17-20/x2.

    30' in game doesn't translate well closer to end game where things are moving like they do. I play a repeater rogue and know that 30' isn't very far. However, if their was a way of making the DC go down the farther away you were (like -1 for every 30').

    However thanks for your feedback going to edit some things now.
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  5. #5
    Community Member RATRACE931's Avatar
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    Sorry had to share, when I looked at recent post I saw the name of this one and just below it there was the Perfect Bank Toon thread... freakin hilarious.



    Interesting Idea, would definatly be fun to mess around with.
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  6. #6
    Hero Marcus-Hawkeye's Avatar
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    I like it. I have a halfling thrower build that would love to see at least some of this. However, an enhancement granting a feat? I'm not exactly well versed in enhancements of other races or even PRE at all, but I don't recall any enhancement granting a feat... could you point one out if they exist?

  7. #7
    Community Member Rakian_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus-Hawkeye View Post
    I like it. I have a halfling thrower build that would love to see at least some of this. However, an enhancement granting a feat? I'm not exactly well versed in enhancements of other races or even PRE at all, but I don't recall any enhancement granting a feat... could you point one out if they exist?
    Rogue Mechanic I give Exotic Weapon Prof. Light Repeater
    Rogue Mechanic II give Exotic Weapon Prof. Heavy Repeater
    Bard Warchanter can give an enhancement to give you a simple or martial weapon prof.

    Where they are only Prof. they are still feats. Not sure if their are any others.
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  8. #8
    Community Member ssgcmwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakian_Knight View Post
    Halfling Weapon Trick "Double Toss"
    Cost: 1ap
    Requires: Halfling level 6 / Halfling Master Thrower I
    Benifits: This trogglable ability allows you to throw two weapons at once.
    A trogglable ability? Does this mean I'll start to stink up the place, too?

  9. #9
    Community Member chrisgina39's Avatar
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    like it

  10. #10
    Community Member chrisgina39's Avatar
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    Talking

    i can see it now
    it looks like this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Ka_wNVuNc

    do cookies count as throwing weapons ?

    they should

  11. #11
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakian_Knight View Post
    One thing about the Arcane Archer racial PrE was that the Preq. were mostly feat based so you could use your AP to get your class PrE so I wanted to continue with that here with as very little Enhancement requirements. However, the PrE is costly and can bite a little or alot depending on how focused you want to get in it. If this would go into game, I see mostly rogues and monks picking it up fully with fighters (with the extra feats) picking up Thrower I, and one or two tricks.

    My logic with keeping str. in Palm throw (well first I over-looked it) but more was focusing on smaller weapons that are only going to have 1d4/17-20 /x3 at most so giving them a boost compared to other ranged attacks like a bow that is going to get 1d10/19-20/x3 or a repeating heavy crossbow 1d10/17-20/x2.

    30' in game doesn't translate well closer to end game where things are moving like they do. I play a repeater rogue and know that 30' isn't very far. However, if their was a way of making the DC go down the farther away you were (like -1 for every 30').

    However thanks for your feedback going to edit some things now.
    It's just that I like things to follow a pattern and to keep as pure to PnP. That's mostly why I make the suggestions that I do.

    Many PrE's have stat enhancements as prereqs. Dex for a thrower makes perfect sense. That said, I am not at all opposed to leaving them out freeing up the AP for those who want a little more room for customization. 3 feats for tier one is a hefty price (Though an appropriately themed one. I approve.).

    For Palm Throw, throwing is pretty nerf-tastic as it is and I don't mean to nerf it more. It's just what the PnP version is. Full strength is not bad, even, because it mimics a high level ranger's Many Shot ability that gets 2, 3 and then 4 arrows with bow strength.

    I know 30' is pretty limiting, but it makes sense. I'm pretty sure a ranged assassin's (do they even exist?) death attack is limited to 30' and that's the signature of the class. It's best to not try to outdo it for a non-rogue PrE. A dynamic DC would be cool, but I think it's too much to hope for that the Devs would develop something like that.

  12. #12
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus-Hawkeye View Post
    I like it. I have a halfling thrower build that would love to see at least some of this. However, an enhancement granting a feat? I'm not exactly well versed in enhancements of other races or even PRE at all, but I don't recall any enhancement granting a feat... could you point one out if they exist?
    There are a few, as mentioned, and the suggested feats have little benefit to anyone but throwers.

    To be a fully invested thrower you need:
    Point Blank Shot
    Precise Shot
    Rapid Shot
    Quick Draw
    Improved Critical (Thrown)
    Improved Precise Shot

    That leaves one feat for either Weapon Focus (Throwing) or the all important Toughness. And you are still terrible. Using enhancements to free up two of those feats goes a long way towards making a build that is more viable.

    And before anyone asks, yes, Rapid Shot affects throwing speeds and stacks with Quick Draw. It actually speeds up throwing better than Quick Draw. I've tested this myself.
    Last edited by coolpenguin410; 01-08-2011 at 05:59 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member Bronko's Avatar
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    Default Master Thrower Ideas Look Good

    I really like these ideas. Any improvements to thrown weapon is welcome and these look pretty balanced.
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  14. #14
    Hero Musouka's Avatar
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    I think the minimum levels need to be increased, making it so that your form of slaying thrown weapon is achievable only at level 20, much like the Elven Arcane Archer.

    Also, you should at least give some sort of competence bonus to attack speed with throwing weapons. Say 10% bonus to throwing attack speed on each tier. Kind of like the quarterstaff attack speed bonus on Thief Acrobats.


    Quote Originally Posted by coolpenguin410 View Post
    There are a few, as mentioned, and the suggested feats have little benefit to anyone but throwers.

    To be a fully invested thrower you need:
    Point Blank Shot
    Precise Shot
    Rapid Shot
    Quick Draw
    Improved Critical (Thrown)
    Improved Precise Shot

    That leaves one feat for either Weapon Focus (Throwing) or the all important Toughness. And you are still terrible. Using enhancements to free up two of those feats goes a long way towards making a build that is more viable.
    The first 2 tiers of each are to be enhancements that give you Quick Draw and Improved Critical: Thrown. That way you actually have 2 more feats open. Also one of his requirements was Weapon Focus: Throwing. So rather it leaves 2 feats wide open.
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  15. #15
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musouka View Post
    Also, you should at least give some sort of competence bonus to attack speed with throwing weapons. Say 10% bonus to throwing attack speed on each tier. Kind of like the quarterstaff attack speed bonus on Thief Acrobats.
    I like this. There should also be a third tier. Give a speed bonus to Tier 2 and Tier 3. Tier 3 should also grant improved precise shot. The +1 atk/dmg would be optional, but throwing weapons need all the help they can get.

    I'm not sure what the requirements would be. Probably something like the damage/attack enhancements already granted to halflings.

  16. #16
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    I certainly will not claim that throwing weapons could not use a boost, however I think PrE's is the wrong way to address underpowered options in the game.

    It leads to only one option being viable (if that) for that style/weapon/whatever and a PrE that is essentially useless to those who don't wish to specialize in that underpowered option. Instead basic changes to these things must be made so that they are viable on their own merits.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Rakian_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    I certainly will not claim that throwing weapons could not use a boost, however I think PrE's is the wrong way to address underpowered options in the game.

    It leads to only one option being viable (if that) for that style/weapon/whatever and a PrE that is essentially useless to those who don't wish to specialize in that underpowered option. Instead basic changes to these things must be made so that they are viable on their own merits.
    True, but this isn't ment to bring throwing weapons to glory like Rapiers or other weapons. Instead of focusing on the weapon, the PrE is focused on the race, Halflings. Halflings are known masters of thrown weapon so why not give them a PrE based on thrown weapons like Elves, master of bows, get Arcane Archer? Also, its ment to give some race class PrE mixes that might be different but better in a different light like Assassin/Master Thrower.

    Personally I wish they would come out with at least a single racial PrE for every race before the end of the year. However, I believe their should be at least two racial PrE per race, one for the dragonmark house (that should require the dragonmark feat per tier) and one that focuses on a talent of the individual race (like Master Thrower for Halflings or Arcane Archer for Elves and Half-elves.) However, that is getting off topic.

    My 2 cp

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  18. #18
    Hero Musouka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    I certainly will not claim that throwing weapons could not use a boost, however I think PrE's is the wrong way to address underpowered options in the game.

    It leads to only one option being viable (if that) for that style/weapon/whatever and a PrE that is essentially useless to those who don't wish to specialize in that underpowered option. Instead basic changes to these things must be made so that they are viable on their own merits.
    Ever made an Elf Paladin Arcane Archer? They practically don't have enough feats to really use anything but bows. For that matter, any other class that doesn't get extra feats would be focused on one type of weapon. Even an arcane archer wizard type is still restricted with feats.

    This would do the same. However, fighters would benefit from being able to take other feats to give a mediocre boost to a different attack style, and possibly even monk.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Quarterling's Avatar
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    I like the idea of halflings getting their own PrE like elves, but I think the feat costs are a bit too high.

    Also, this seems to be more like a hobby than an actual class when you compare it to the elves' arcane archer. Usefulness is way less, but I do agree it would be quite fun to have something like this.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakian_Knight View Post
    Halflings are masters of thrown weapons so why not give them a PrE based on it?
    The reason not is because all ranged combat is currently broken, and it would be a mistake to create some specific feature on top of ranged combat before repairing the system in general.

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