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  1. #41
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    Tag. Too many awesome idea to handle at once.

  2. #42
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    i have a habit of asking for a dps chart for these types of builds.
    might look nice, but i wanna know its dps!

    thread normally ends right after i ask
    at least give me a rough estimate.

  3. #43
    Community Member junta74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    i have a habit of asking for a dps chart for these types of builds.
    might look nice, but i wanna know its dps!

    thread normally ends right after i ask
    at least give me a rough estimate.
    I'm not a number guy, but for 20 seconds I feel like a god. With a 16 BAB, I get plenty of arrows with manyshot. An elemental longbow of earth, frozen tunic (for CC), Ring of the stalker, +2 damage from fabricator bracers, +6 damage from song, and IPS makes for short work of most groups and puts quite a hurt on bosses.

    That being said, this is not a DPS build outside of that. When people tell a ranger to use TWF durring cooldown of manyshot, this build has way more options.

    Heal- I can scroll heal at about 300 a shot or use cure critical for about 150-190
    Fascinate
    Buff
    Debuff (crushing despair and mind fog)
    CC with OID, Disco ball (not great, but not bad)
    All those fun spellsinger songs (Caster level +1, 10% spell discount, spell point regen)
    I'm currently playing around with Greater Shout hitting about 175 with Blasting Chime (any ideas on how to improve this?)
    Keep pew pew pew ing with IPS

    All on my displaced, stoneskinned, Hraged, GH, FOM bard. I gotta tell you, it's fun.
    Last edited by junta74; 04-13-2012 at 09:43 AM.

  4. #44
    Community Member jsm123's Avatar
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    All of the builds I've seen in this thread have one major flaw. Health. None of them had over 300hp and in high lvl quests, especially with a toon that has low saves, that spells death. Be sure to have toughness and its enhancements. I usually try to have atleast 16 con at start in any build. Sometimes you cant do it but it makes a world of difference. I also noticed most if not all were helfs. Pick the barbarian dilly if you dont have room for toughness.
    Last edited by jsm123; 09-25-2012 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #45
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsm123 View Post
    All of the builds I've seen in this thread have one major flaw. Health. None of them had over 300hp and in high lvl quests, that spells death. Be sure to have toughness and its enhancements. I usually try to have atleast 16 con at start in any build. Sometimes you cant do it but it makes a world of difference.
    This is a wrpng between the large amount of HP items the toughness feat and at least 12 Con (preferably 14) you'll have more than enough HP on any build...Con 16 is ridiculous unless you have one main stat or if Con is actually an important stat outside of HP (Sorcs & Barbs) in which case 16 or even 18 is doable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  6. #46
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    I'm thinking of tring my rogue into this, should be able to do traps/melee/ranged/singsongs, complete ?


    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Lil B
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
    (1 Rogue \ 12 Ranger \ 7 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 266
    Spell Points: 388 
    BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
    Fortitude: 14
    Reflex: 19
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    24
    Dexterity            15                    18
    Constitution         16                    19
    Intelligence         12                    16
    Wisdom                8                    11
    Charisma             12                    16
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    +4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    16
    Bluff                 5                     7
    Concentration         3                     4
    Diplomacy             1                     3
    Disable Device        5                    25
    Haggle                1                     3
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                  6                     8
    Intimidate            1                     3
    Jump                  7                    17
    Listen               -1                     0
    Move Silently         6                     8
    Open Lock             6                    24
    Perform               n/a                  23
    Repair                1                     3
    Search                5                    26
    Spot                  2                     3
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                3                     5
    Use Magic Device      5                    26
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Mobility
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elf
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Last edited by IWCoppercrest; 09-08-2013 at 09:57 AM. Reason: ***** out word

  7. #47
    Community Member jsm123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    This is a wrpng between the large amount of HP items the toughness feat and at least 12 Con (preferably 14) you'll have more than enough HP on any build...Con 16 is ridiculous unless you have one main stat or if Con is actually an important stat outside of HP (Sorcs & Barbs) in which case 16 or even 18 is doable.
    I would have to disagree with you sir. Sure it is ok to have 14 con when you can't put any more into it but the fact of the matter is that taking away a couple points from one or two stats to give more con and then make up for it with the stat boosts you get from lvling is a much better route. There are a lot of things in high lvl elites that can one hit someone with a little over 300hp let alone 200, mainly casters. And these builds do not have very good saves.

  8. #48
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsm123 View Post
    I would have to disagree with you sir. Sure it is ok to have 14 con when you can't put any more into it but the fact of the matter is that taking away a couple points from one or two stats to give more con and then make up for it with the stat boosts you get from lvling is a much better route. There are a lot of things in high lvl elites that can one hit someone with a little over 300hp let alone 200, mainly casters. And these builds do not have very good saves.
    ok here's a few builds...where would you drop stats to get more con

    Lawful Neutral Human Rogue13/Monk6/Druid1

    Str 17 +3 tome + 3 Lvls = 23
    Dex 15+ 4 tome + 2 Lvls = 21
    Con 14
    Int 11+ 2 tome = 13 (will likely use +1,+2 and +3 as soon as ML is met)
    Wis 10+ 1 tome = 11 enough to cast druid spells by lvl 3 (both when i take my first druid lvl and the ML on +1 tomes)
    Cha 8

    Skills: Balance, UMD, Trap Skills and w/e else fits :P

    Level Order: Rogue1, Monk2, Druid3, Rogue 4-20

    Feats
    1 Power Attack,Cleave
    2 Toughness(M)
    3 Precision
    6 Stunning Blow
    9 Great Cleave, Combat Expertise(M)
    12 Improved Sunder
    13 Dodge (M)
    15 IC: Bludgeon
    16 Improved Evasion (R)
    18 Improved Trip
    20 Opportunist (R)
    21 Improved Sneak Attack
    24 Overwhelming Critical (Req 21 Dex, 23 Str)




    Half-Elf Monk12/Fighter7/Arty1 NS2/Kensai1/AA


    Str 14 (+1H-Elf, +2 Tome, +2 Fighter, etc.)
    Dex 16 (+1 Lvl +2 Tome = 19 = IPS Pre-Req)
    Con 14 (+2 Tome = 16 = Tier 3 Earth Stance Pre-Req)
    Int 12 (+2 Tome for skills...than nothing)
    Wis 14 (+4 Lvl, +2 Tome, +3 Monk, +1 H-Elf,etc.)
    Cha 8 (+2 Tome,etc.)

    Regular
    HE Rogue Dilly
    1 Point Blank Shot
    3 WF:Ranged
    6 Mental Toughness
    9 Manyshot
    12 Bow Strength
    15 Improved Precise Shot
    18 Toughness

    Monk
    4 Zen Archery
    5 Dodge
    6 Dark Path
    9 Stunning Fist

    Fighter
    2 Precise Shot
    3 Rapid Shot
    17 WS: Ranged
    19 IC:Ranged



    Halfling Artificer20


    Str 10
    Dex 16 (1 lvl up here, +2 dex tome by lvl 15)
    Con 14
    Int 18 (4 Lvl ups here)


    1 Point Blank Shot
    3 Precise Shot
    6 Rapid Shot
    9 Toughness
    12 SF: Evo
    15 Improved Precise Shot
    18 GSF:Evo

    4 Augment Summoning
    8 Construct Essence
    12 IC:Ranged
    16 Empower
    20 Maximize
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  9. #49
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsm123 View Post
    All of the builds I've seen in this thread have one major flaw. Health. None of them had over 300hp and in high lvl quests, especially with a toon that has low saves, that spells death. Be sure to have toughness and its enhancements. I usually try to have atleast 16 con at start in any build. Sometimes you cant do it but it makes a world of difference. I also noticed most if not all were helfs. Pick the barbarian dilly if you dont have room for toughness.
    To address your criticisms:

    • In case you didn't notice, almost all of my builds take Toughness and all enhs already (I think the bard 16 / rgr 2 / rog 2 SS was the only one that didn't); but yes, these are a bit squishy. Avoiding aggro and picking up all the HP bonuses you can is a priority.
    • Almost all of the posted builds are elves not HEs; but yes, going HE w/barb dilly is one option for more CON & HPs. However, since most builds include a ftr splash & ftr Toughness enh, adding barb dilly doesn't add much HPs.
    • Base CON 16 is unrealistic for most elves, certainly one as MAD as this build. Base CON 16 on a HE is more doable; but by switching from elf to HE, you go from having a base CON deficiency to having a base DEX deficiency. DEX is even more important now if you want Combat Archery (base DEX 21) as one of your epic feats. [Presuming it's been fixed yet, of course; but what're the odds of Turbine taking more than 3 months to bug-fix something? ]
    • Every build can eventually add +2 CON tome (+4 if you're super-lucky) & +6 CON item (CON +7 base +3 exceptional if you really push it). Add Toughness item (+20), SFL (+40), GS HP item (+45), GEE (+20), Draconic Vitality (+10); so all told you should get +200-250 HPs "just" from gear.
    • There are also various temporary buffs - e.g., guildship +2 CON, guild Health augment crystal (+5-20), Greater Heroism, Rage spell, Inspire Greatness, Aid, False Life spell, Fragment of Song:Valor (Fatesinger) - to provide more of a buffer.

    I believe with sufficient effort these builds can have somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 HPs unbuffed and another 100-200 buffed. We're not talking endgame hatetanks, but we're also not talking CON 6 drow sorcs either. And since the gameplay is designed around hanging in the back pew-pewing with the casters well outside the tanks' aggro, they should be fine. My TWF bard with mediocre gear and a "measly" ~400 HPs unbuffed is able to survive epic hards and some epic elites while in the thick of things.

    To be honest, I'm more worried about the lack of Evasion on all the non-rogue-based versions; even fully buffed and with high Reflex, I routinely take quite a bit of elemental dmg in epics on my pure bard. One could go Shadowdancer to get "free" Evasion from Dark Elusion and twist in the best bits from Fatesinger; but I really like my FS goodies and don't want to have to give any of them up "just" to get Evasion.

  10. #50
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miow View Post
    I'm thinking of tring my rogue into this, should be able to do traps/melee/ranged/singsongs, complete ****?
    Check out Arlathen's thread, he's got a cool rgr / bard build you might like.

  11. #51
    Community Member jsm123's Avatar
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    Lawful Neutral Human Rogue13/Monk6/Druid1

    Str 17 +3 tome + 3 Lvls = 23
    Dex 15+ 4 tome + 2 Lvls = 21
    Con 14
    Int 11+ 2 tome = 13 (will likely use +1,+2 and +3 as soon as ML is met)
    Wis 10+ 1 tome = 11 enough to cast druid spells by lvl 3 (both when i take my first druid lvl and the ML on +1 tomes)
    Cha 8

    Skills: Balance, UMD, Trap Skills and w/e else fits :P

    Level Order: Rogue1, Monk2, Druid3, Rogue 4-20

    Feats
    1 Power Attack,Cleave
    2 Toughness(M)
    3 Precision
    6 Stunning Blow
    9 Great Cleave, Combat Expertise(M)
    12 Improved Sunder
    13 Dodge (M)
    15 IC: Bludgeon
    16 Improved Evasion (R)
    18 Improved Trip
    20 Opportunist (R)
    21 Improved Sneak Attack
    24 Overwhelming Critical (Req 21 Dex, 23 Str)

    Nice build. I see why you are having trouble though. As I said, sometimes it doesn't happen. And it is less important on this one because of the saves you will have as well as improved evasion. But if I were to try, what is the minimum wisdom requirement for druid 1 spells? If it is 12, I would say wait for the druid. It would be much more worth your while to wait till lvl 7 and get a +2 wis tome and a +2 wis item. This will give you one more con. Then I would hunt for a +3 con tome (I like +3 supremes). You'll be amazed at the difference. There is a big difference between having 380hp and having 420hp (hypothetically). Healers will love you more. But still, I don't think this build will have too much trouble staying alive in elites just cuz of imp evasion.

    The bardchers I was talking about, that dont have imp evasion, will need the hp more than this build will. Ranged characters get a lot of aggro.
    Last edited by jsm123; 09-25-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  12. #52
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Check out Arlathen's thread, he's got a cool rgr / bard build you might like.
    Thanks i was looking at that already, his obviously can't do traps wich will be integral to our elite streak/xp gains through disabling. Basically the 1 level of fighter is the major difference. If i had chosen fighter over rogue level i would have the extra feat to pickup khopesh now by wanting to do traps i have to drop it and pickup WF slashing.....ah well better start stocking on scimmys will like the warchanter/tempest should be fun, i've plugged in the enhancement lines too.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Lil B
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
    (1 Rogue \ 12 Ranger \ 7 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 326
    Spell Points: 388 
    BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
    Fortitude: 15
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    25
    Dexterity            15                    20
    Constitution         16                    20
    Intelligence         12                    16
    Wisdom                8                    11
    Charisma             12                    16
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    +4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    17
    Bluff                 5                     7
    Concentration         3                     5
    Diplomacy             1                     3
    Disable Device        5                    25
    Haggle                1                     3
    Heal                 -1                     0
    Hide                  6                     9
    Intimidate            1                     5
    Jump                  7                    17
    Listen               -1                     0
    Move Silently         6                     9
    Open Lock             6                    25
    Perform               n/a                  25
    Repair                1                     3
    Search                5                    26
    Spot                  2                     3
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                3                     6
    Use Magic Device      5                    26
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Mobility
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elf
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Improved Perform I
    Enhancement: Improved Perform II
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Last edited by Miow; 09-26-2012 at 08:01 AM.

  13. #53
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    By popular* request, I have updated the builds in the first post and archived the originals in the third post. With all the changes recently, I'm less sanguine about adding Warchanter to this build; two melee-specific feats on a ranged-n-heal-focused build does not seem like a good idea, IMHO. [Although the Virtuoso does still have the option of adding a couple of melee feats if you wish.]

    *if by "popular" I mean "one."

  14. #54
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    would love to see the first build done with the new tree enhancements. I tried figuring it out but it made my head hurt instantly. too big a change to fast for me

  15. #55
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Still trying to work out how I want to "remix" my existing builds, inc. Bardchers. The good news is Turbine dropped the feat pre-reqs for most PrEs, so I can drop weak feats like WF:Ranged and more easily mix in the bard PrEs. And the silver lining to the changes to Toughness enhs means the Toughness feat can be either dropped or delayed, since it doesn't provide as much oomph as it used to.

    The downside is I think the AP cost for a lot of things are poorly balanced, which means I can't fit in nearly as many enhs as I would like on these builds. E.g., say I wanted to make a DEX-based elven Bardcher w/Grace + Skill; that costs as least 24 APs if I'm adding right. If I also wanted to max out the AA tree, that's at least 42 APs; which leaves only 14 APs for bard PrEs. I could forgo the higher AA tiers, but Shadow Arrows + capstone is +15% doubleshot; that's a pretty big deal for an archer, IMHO. But maybe I want something more melee- / WC-focused. Decisions, decisions...

  16. #56
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    Tell me about it. Im trying a ranger 3 cleric 1 bard sixteen right now. Major feat starved and I just barely got slayers and didn't increase double shot too much. The +10 to strength is nice though.

  17. #57
    Community Member giftie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I could forgo the higher AA tiers, but Shadow Arrows + capstone is +15% doubleshot; that's a pretty big deal for an archer, IMHO.
    Isn't Manyshot supposed to bring a 100% debuff on doubleshot for 70 secs? Tooltip claims so, and scattered reports support it. If so, that would make doubleshot a lot less desirable.

    Your builds consistently take into consideration fun and playability during levelling, so it's worth noting that the T4/T5 core abilities require character level 22 and 25 respectively for non-rangers.

  18. #58
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giftie View Post
    Isn't Manyshot supposed to bring a 100% debuff on doubleshot for 70 secs? Tooltip claims so, and scattered reports support it. If so, that would make doubleshot a lot less desirable.
    Depends on how you play your Bardcher. There's a 50-sec window where MS is still on cooldown but the doubleshot debuff has expired. If you want to be solely or primarily ranged, then investing in doubleshot boosts for that window is still worth it, IMHO; OTOH, if you plan to melee entirely while MS is on cooldown, then doubleshot is irrelevant.
    Your builds consistently take into consideration fun and playability during levelling, so it's worth noting that the T4/T5 core abilities require character level 22 and 25 respectively for non-rangers.
    Good point; thanks for mentioning it.

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