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  1. #21
    Community Member sirdanile's Avatar
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    To me an optimal build is fun to play.

    I find deaths and failure distasteful.

    Now i'm not against anyone else playing what they want to but I want to be the best I can possibly be on each character.
    The bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to keep me tame.
    Thelanis
    Toons: Diclonius, Sempresno, Slitmuno, Slitmdos, Slitmtres, Skyfe, Calcatrix, Marcosias, Sumona, Tarokian, Etc.

  2. #22
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    I gotta defend the elite/vet players a bit. While some of them are a pain occasionally, I find it's the exception rather
    then the rule. At least on Thelanis. I myself am neither elite nor a vet and while I have been the target of snide
    remarks once or twice (to be fair they have usually been deserved at least partially) more often I get helpful
    tips and advice. What I find occasionaly upsets people is not so much non min/maxed characters but characters that
    are unprepared (no pots, no wands, no scrolls), unwilling to listen ("Don't hit the cat!!!") or ungeared/unready for
    the difficulty of the content they sign up for (<300 hp chars in EDQ,elite amrath, no fort chars in shroud).

    Moreover most elite/vet players don't even really have time to figure out your build is non min/maxed since they are
    done with the quest before it comes up unless you die when you enter.

    The people who are most often a pain are neither elite nor vet but have delusions of grandeur.Whenever
    something goes wrong it's because someone else is a gimp. It never has anything to do with their leadership/lack
    thereof.

    The moral of the story I'm trying to get to try and get to know your local elite/vet before you judge them. You might
    come across a jackass but there's a really good chance you'll come across someone who will give you tips on how to
    place fw's for greater effect, where the mob rubber band points are and which quests are worth running for tr's.
    Just my 2 copper,
    Rawel

  3. #23
    Community Member EustaceTrevelyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post

    My characters are all a bit more flexible... I can take my multi-class fighter/ranger/monk with the healing dragonmarks into any new dungeon, confident that he can handle anything that's thrown at him... I've never had to reroll a character due to a mechanic change..

    But that's me...

    The game is easy... You don't have to have max anything to succeed... Some people like being 100% in one thing, 0% in another.... Others (like me) would rather be 80% in both things...

    It's all good...
    QFT and +

    On thelanis, not sure about raids (not quite shroud ready yet) but leveling up, there's really nothing in lfm's about builds. I can see where it would be offputting, tho. No real solution but to join a really active guild.

  4. #24
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I disagree with the OP on many key issues!


    I am not a min/maxer. My first char is still my main. And favorite. He is definately one of those fun builds who no one thinks is an optimal build.

    Yet he has done every quest in the game, all but six of the highest lvl ones on Elite, and three of those on Hard. And he has done most of the Epics as well.

    And done just fine.

    Why?

    Because I believe to two major points that many people seem to forget.

    Gear and player, are way better and more important than build.

    You can play any build in any content....if you know how. And come prepared.

    In fact, I have done most content without the best gear either.
    I liked my original build so much, that I made a clone of him. And leveled him to 20 without any raid loot at all.
    Along the way he did most of the Amrath quests and VoD a few times....including VoD on hard. And did just fine.
    Same inferior build...without the gear this time. And still successful.

    Optimal Min/maxed builds kill faster. Many can even solo the hardest content.
    My builds cannot or at least I find it too much trouble.

    But there is no reason why a smart player who knows the game and comes prepared cannot do everything in the game. (right now anyway)

    The Epics I've seen fail, failed because the players had no idea what they were doing...and did not come prepared. One failed due completely to running out of healing. I have been the last one standing in many quests just because I had my own pots to keep myself up....no excuse for that IMO.

    I've seen a few failures totally because a Cleric died and no one could res him.
    You need to come prepared...to help others too.

    You can't just walk into Epics in starter rags and expect to win.
    But you can go in with a fun build, that you know how to play. Have given some thought to his gear, and how to use him against the challenges he will face....etc.

    You need to survive. Be that HP, saves, twitch play ,tactics, healing...etc. Probably all of the above actually.

    You need to do damage. Which might mean not trying to use your preferred weapon/style against foes that it doesn't work well against. So take some time to figure out how you will damage every type of monster with your fun build.

    But I do not believe that fun builds need to avoid certain content. Just come prepared to contribute and don't expect to be carried though.
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 01-11-2011 at 11:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  5. #25
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is the main point...

    People build their min/max characters for existing raids and dungeons... They know exactly what's coming...

    Then Turbine releases some new content, or a new raid, or changes some mechanic, and suddenly last week's "optimal" character has to adapt... Usually the power-gamer just rerolls (old days) or reincarnates (today) and makes himself "perfect" again for the new...

    My characters are all a bit more flexible... I can take my multi-class fighter/ranger/monk with the healing dragonmarks into any new dungeon, confident that he can handle anything that's thrown at him... I've never had to reroll a character due to a mechanic change..

    But that's me...

    The game is easy... You don't have to have max anything to succeed... Some people like being 100% in one thing, 0% in another.... Others (like me) would rather be 80% in both things...

    It's all good...
    The first day of a new mod is when my build feels the most powerful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  6. #26
    Community Member
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    Oct 2006
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    "Fun" is subjective.
    Optimal" is less so but there is a wide range in less than optimal.

    I think Ninja spy/fighter with longswords is fun. Hes not optimal in most respects but hes hes good in almost all groups. Hes close enough to an optimal build that by using good gear I can out perfom an optimal build with modest gear.
    So unless you have some rather extreme perfect group Im good.

    On the other hand consider a Wiz/cleric build with a splash of Barb - built as first character.
    Maybe the player is having a great deal of fun, but hes toon sucks.Hes hurting every group just by joining.
    Wherever you went - here you are.

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