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  1. #1
    Community Member Varr's Avatar
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    Default 2 weapon fighting: couple questions

    For as much as I play, I wander blindly to some of the games math.

    Couple questions about two weapon fighting.

    1. As it works now, if I was trying to vorp....does an off hand vorp weapon make sence? If a double strike occurs will the off hand get its own independent roll opportunity to 20 and vorp.....or should the off hand be a max damage weapon.

    2. Seeker is applied to weapon set as is stunning. Under today's mechanics if my off hand is a paralizer or cursespewer are those effect applied to main hand or only off hand doublestrikes?

    3. Just not sure how many calculations were adjusted with the newish mechanics and I can post easier than search on this iPhone

    More questions to follow perhaps after first couple answered. Please limit the guesswork responses.....I think I know but fishing for solid math/answers. Assume two Kama fighting level 13 cleric with improved two weapon fighting feat as the casE study please.

    Thanks in advance!
    Varr's all over. Cannith Varr getting the love currently.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    For as much as I play, I wander blindly to some of the games math.

    Couple questions about two weapon fighting.

    1. As it works now, if I was trying to vorp....does an off hand vorp weapon make sence? If a double strike occurs will the off hand get its own independent roll opportunity to 20 and vorp.....or should the off hand be a max damage weapon.
    My tempest always wields 2 vorpals when using vorpals. But you can use only one, either in your main or off-hand, if u like. But i'm trying to max my vorpaling chances. The main and the off-hand get two independent rolls. I think double strike occurs only for the main hand though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    2. Seeker is applied to weapon set as is stunning. Under today's mechanics if my off hand is a paralizer or cursespewer are those effect applied to main hand or only off hand doublestrikes?
    When wielding one paralyzer or cursepewer, it applies only to this specific weapon, not on the 2nd weapon, too. I think you are using incorrectly the term "doublestike" in this context. Doublestrike means you get a 2nd extra attack with the same weapon, it doesn't equal off-hand attack (and as i said, i think it applies only to main hand - so double strike means you get 2 main hand attacks where you normally would make one, if i'm correct).

    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    3. Just not sure how many calculations were adjusted with the newish mechanics and I can post easier than search on this iPhone

    More questions to follow perhaps after first couple answered. Please limit the guesswork responses.....I think I know but fishing for solid math/answers. Assume two Kama fighting level 13 cleric with improved two weapon fighting feat as the casE study please.

    Thanks in advance!
    Hope that helps, i'm sorry but i'm not 100% sure about all my answers (i'm 94,73% sure though)
    Last edited by Grecan; 12-30-2010 at 09:59 AM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    This is how two weapon fighting works:

    1. You attack and the game performs a physics check to see if you are within range to hit.
    2. If so, you always get a main hand roll.
    3. If you have a doublestrike chance, you roll to see if you perform an extra attack with your main hand. As a cleric with kamas you probably have a monk splash - if you are in Wind Stance you have a doublestrike chance.
    4. In addition, you have a % chance to get an offhand roll. This chance is determined by feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF) and enhancements (Tempest). For your character it would be 60%.

    The more chances you get at vorpaling the better, therefore wielding two vorpalers makes excellent sense depending on the state of your to-hit. If you would hit exactly on a 1 if not for automatic misses with one weapon, you will confirm every crit and therefore every vorpal. Adding a second weapon would make you miss on a 1 and a 2 on the first two attacks in your animation chain, meaning that your vorpal chance would go from 5% to

    (50% * 5% * (18/20) + 50% * 5%) * 40% + (1 - (1 - (50% * 5% * (18/20) + 50% * 5%))^2) * 60%
    = 7.46%

    So that would be a good move. If you would hit exactly on a 10 with one weapon, however, you would go from:

    50% * 5% * 10/20 + 25% * 5% * 15/20 + 25% * 5% = 3.44%

    ...to a single hand chance of:

    50% * 5% * 8/20 + 25% * 5% * 13/20 + 25% * 5% * 18/20 = 2.94%

    ...for an effective chance of:

    40% * 2.94% + (1 - (1 - 2.94%) ^ 2) * 60%
    = 4.64%

    Still an increase, but not as much of one. The extreme case is if you would naturally hit only on a 20 without the automatic hit on the fourth swing of your animation chain with one weapon, in which case you could not possibly confirm a crit wielding two weapons and would never see a vorpal.

  4. #4
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    For as much as I play, I wander blindly to some of the games math.

    Couple questions about two weapon fighting.

    1. As it works now, if I was trying to vorp....does an off hand vorp weapon make sence? If a double strike occurs will the off hand get its own independent roll opportunity to 20 and vorp.....or should the off hand be a max damage weapon.

    2. Seeker is applied to weapon set as is stunning. Under today's mechanics if my off hand is a paralizer or cursespewer are those effect applied to main hand or only off hand doublestrikes?

    3. Just not sure how many calculations were adjusted with the newish mechanics and I can post easier than search on this iPhone

    More questions to follow perhaps after first couple answered. Please limit the guesswork responses.....I think I know but fishing for solid math/answers. Assume two Kama fighting level 13 cleric with improved two weapon fighting feat as the casE study please.

    Thanks in advance!
    Offhand and double strike are not hte same thing; I dont think you undertand the mechanic you're asking about here.

    You get a separate offhand swing with its own attack roll on 80% of your mainnhand swings. This, of course, can be a 20 and vorpal stuff.

    Double strike is a x% chance of another -mainhand- swing, also with its own separate roll, and will never, ever, ever occur for your offhand attacks. Sometimes you will get 3 swings in a single animation, because you have + 80% chance of the offhand + 10% of the mainhand, etc.

    Traits that cross hands or do not are the same as before; the offhand attack change only changed how the number of offhand attacks is determined (being 80% chance on any swing, instead of being tied to specific animations that do or do not have the offhand swing included). Double-strike changes how these properties stack with two weapon fighting (by only providing bonus mainhand attacks, instead of speeding up the entire animation which consequently provides more main-hand and off-hand attacks).

    There are no special new mechanics or wierd code that transfer weapon effects from one to the other or anything of that nature, outside of the ones that already existed (stunning, vertigo, shatter, seeker, backstabbing, and other effects that are often found on equipment).

  5. #5
    Community Member Varr's Avatar
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    +1 for the responses and you are correct, I was fuzzy about doublestrike actually replacing off hand attack rolls. These resposes are a huge help and I appreciate it.
    Last edited by Varr; 12-30-2010 at 10:59 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    +1 for the responses and you are correct, I was fuzzy about doublestrike actually replacing off hand attack rolls. These resposes are a huge help and I appreciate it.
    The only way doublestrike interacts with offhand attacks is by not interacting with them the way the previous attack speed bonuses did, which is why doublestrike was a bit of a nerf to twf characters but equally good for the other two styles (or even an upgrade, situationally, for those two styles, since they can now get more than 1 smite/divine sacrifice/stunning blow/etc per use, when before they could never).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    +1 for the responses and you are correct, I was fuzzy about doublestrike actually replacing off hand attack rolls. These resposes are a huge help and I appreciate it.
    glad to be of service

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